Interesting story from Africa: My friend is a professional photographer who does several thousand-mile long road trips through the remote African wilderness. Wherever he goes, he gets cash offers on his tricked out SUV dating from 1998. The reason is that this was the last year before the SUV became loaded with all kinds of computer chips. If the pre-1998 SUV model breaks down in the middle of the Sahara, all you need is a screwdriver and a wrench to fix it. If you have a recent model however, good luck to you. You're going to have to wait for someone to FedEx a new controller board to you in the middle of nowhere. Most likely you'll have to abandon your SUV entirely.
If it really matters, you can't rely on a car that requires a computer to start or to drive. You want something purely mechanical.
2) Your preparation -- access to spares, tools, materials
3) Your knowledge and resourcefulness
There is a lot of critical mechanical parts on a car that are unrepairable, even at a car shop. Most of critical mechanical stuff on a car can only be fixed with a spare. Even changing your tire is just an act of using a spare. Ever broke anything within engine or transmission? Good luck fixing it with basic tools in wilderness.
When car mechanic says he's repaired something, there is good probability he means he has replaced the part that was faulty.
If you go across Africa, take spares for what is needed and tools to diagnose / repair. If you worry your computer may break, carry a spare. Carry a multimeter, some spare tools and materials to fix common electrical issues.
Electronic spares and tools do not take that much space and if you are worried about electronics there is no excuse not to take them.
People complain they can't repair electronics on a car but that's only because they never applied themselves the same way they applied to learn and fix mechanics.
My father specializes in repairing car / truck / bus etc. electronics. He uses simple tools and his experience to repair things.
He has been flown to from Poland to South Africa to fix a large crane that Volvo could not fix themselves. All with basic tools.
There is nothing inherently more difficult about fixing electronics on a car.
---
As a side note, I would prefer older car to drive over Africa but not because of lack of electronics but rather because of more margins, higher clearances and resistance to wear tear.
As to repairing in the wild they are easier to repair because they are SIMPLER, and the parts are more accessible (as in easier to reach them), not because they don't have electronics.
I am not expert mechanic therefore I will have better chance repairing simple car.
I am not expert electronics engineer therefore I will have better chance repairing car with simple electronics. Does that make sense?
When a bearing fails, have fun remaking ball bearings with a hammer...
Some mechanical parts are just like electronic ones - you need a massive factory to produce them.
You might argue that ball bearing balls are standard parts so easy to get anywhere, but the same is true of electronic components - a 10uf capacitor is probably within 3 feet of you right now.
All that's missing are the skills to be able to diagnose issues down to a single component rather than saying "the control board is bad, we need to order a new one".
1998 isn't even pre-OBD2, that's a computer controlled engine if gas, to say the least.
The spirit of your comment has truth to it, but it's unclear what exactly is so desirable about your friend's SUV in Africa. In your own words it's "tricked out", how do you know it's not just his modifications that have everyone making offers?
In choosing vehicles for such purposes, the criteria is more nuanced than "no computers". There are factors like fuel type, compression ratio (lower the better, runs fine on shit gas), non-interference design (in case timing belt fails, non-fatal), fewer moving parts in general (so you probably want to avoid an entire decade of non-computer, post-smog vehicles, which tend to have miles of vacuum lines and dozens of solenoids to leak and fail).
The 90s are kind of a sweet spot for computer-controlled post-smog simplicity, where vehicles likely still have throttle cables and no ABS. But you have to go much further back for no computers at all and no insane pre-computer emissions controls, basically pre-75.
That was the case in Russia villages. Old Russian cars were used everywhere and one could fix anything with a wrench and hammer. Those people were reluctant to adopt new cars. I think that it's changed now, as local mechanics got more experience with electronics and stuff. Most of electronics issues actually could be fixed, you can replace capacitors, etc. But of course not in the middle of nowhere.
That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. But they're quite costly.
One thing is for sure: cars of today are not at all collectable and poor investments. No one will know how to or care to reverse engineer some long obsolete proprietary CAN/lin protocol 50 years from now. The myriad of bespoke modules, electromechanical bits, computers, and other frail plastic bits will be near impossible to repair without an engineering degree and dozens/hundreds of hours in reversing, designing, fabrication. Absurdity. The bottom line is these vehicles are environmentally irresponsible.
I bought a 1961 Mack B61 (year and model #'s coincidental) to restore (slowly) and its a 100% mechanical turbo diesel (ENDT673B). It so dumb that the "ignition" key is just a two position on-off switch which enables the electrics allowing the starter to run when the start button is pushed. To stop the engine, you pull a stop knob which operates a lever on the injection pump pushing the fuel rack to the full-off position. I once let it sit two years without touching it; started up with fresh batteries after checking oil and coolant. That truck will still run and be serviceable in the next 50 years. Maybe parts will be hard to find, but most can be fab'd in a simple machine shop by a single person.
The biggest problem in new cars is DRM (software) and custom parts (pcbs are cheap to customize). As such every
Make and model and someone year has parts that are unique or software with expensive lisences. Mechanical parts especially old ones were more likely to be common and therefore higher availability.
HN is funny sometimes. You guys seem to either want a battered down Toyota that you can fix with a screw driver or the absolute latest AI-powered Tesla 666.
It's a mix of software engineers who want to run the latest bleeding-edge framework and the operations engineers who have to make it work in production.
I mean, I want both. Or rather, there's a cutoff point where I am okay with one, or the other. Right now the state of things are in a worst of both worlds scenario. I think cars are:
Too expensive and complex now in the name of "safety". Most additions to required car safety features beyond airbags has been minimal in actual gains compared to the added cost and long term repair complexity induced.
I think entry level cars should be able to be much cheaper and barebones. The recent requirement for backup cameras is one example of too much for too little. I just want a car that gets me from A to B reliably. I don't even care if it has good radio/speakers, power windows, etc.
On the flipside, I hate driving in general. I'll happily pay for a self-driving (or nearly self driving, at least) car with all the gizmos needed to make it work. However I will only "buy" such a car (in the sense of legal ownership) if it has a lifetime warranty or reasonable trade-in guarantees. Otherwise it'd be lease or long term rent only as the repair and upkeep costs on so much proprietary tech would be insane past X years, if its even possible.
Cars are a tool, not a fashion / status symbol for me.
Automakers should make cars with less chips. Touchscreen controls, licenses to accept, firmwares to update, tracking to spy on you and Internet-attached locks to crack are abominable. I want a car as analog as possible without loosing much of the engine efficiency.
Automakers should make cars that are still usable when non-critical components fail. Chips aren't the problem; too many points of failure is the problem.
Custom electric conversions seem great (see e.g. Zero EV's MX-5 on YouTube). Not analog, but not "smart" either. No internet-connected computers, only the necessary microcontrollers.
Thesis: automakers were already making more cars far above and beyond demand before 2020, they used the pandemic to cut their part orders and now have repercussions from that, but in reality, that is what they want. They need a lack of supply and for current stock to be used up before they will be profitable.
Absolutely not. Automotive factories are only profitable when run at high utilization. If ICs are short, then factories cannot run at high utilization.
I am strugling to understand the nature of the global chip shortage.
Is there a single driver?
Or is it just a confluence of events: The US-China tech war (preventing expansion of Chinese factories, causing stock-piling from companies fearful of sanctions), factory shutdowns due to the pandemic, unforseen demand in certain areas (work from home equipment, TVs, GPUs for cryptomining), random accidents like this one.
IMHO some of it is climate change. TSMC is only running with trucked in water due to drought conditions in Taiwan, and multiple fabs in Texas had to go down with their power outages and fab restarts are not fast.
What's with Japanese chip fabs catching fire? It's very odd that Renesas was producing some chips for AKM at that plant after the AKM plant caught fire. From earlier this year: "Renesas steps up and lends capacity to AKM after the fire"
I wonder when in-vehicle computers come in standard sizes and with standard ports. like 4x gb eth, 8x can, 3x hdmi, 2x usb something along such lines.
just like you buy another system from another vendor for your data centre, if your usual supplier happens to have production issues.
this would also simplify computer power performance updates, to dunno go from level 2 to level 3 autonomy (assuming sensors are there already).
the vehicle part of the vehicle easily lasts 10-15 years. such standardized vehicle computer infrastructure would not only make automotive vendors more independent from board and soc fluctuations, it would keep the car fresh for a longer period of time, and allow for performance software after-market sales.
There are 2 cleanrooms. The 2nd story one is undamaged but needs the 1st story one to be repaired (I assume it's a structural thing?). So I'm curious how, from 1 picture, your comment can be informed?
Also from the article, the fire damaged 5% of the first cleanroom and 11 machines. Maybe they're able to get the other 95% back up and running without having the damaged 600sqft fully functional?
I work in a tiny R&D company, mostly building prototypes, and currently, _every single project_ we have that involves hardware is in some sort affected by the general semi-shortage + Mouser (being a Texan company) delivery delays.
We weren't able to buy the _150_ micro-controllers we needed for a tiny series production, I'm currently waiting for a literal handful of crimp terminals to be shipped, the 220Vto12V AC/DC converter I normally use is unobtainium.
No PS5. No graphics cards. No Vaccines. 6 month wait for bicycles. The biggest LSD producer in Europe got caught, so no LSD either.
It's like in communism, but you still have to pay rent.
[+] [-] TedShiller|5 years ago|reply
If it really matters, you can't rely on a car that requires a computer to start or to drive. You want something purely mechanical.
[+] [-] lmilcin|5 years ago|reply
Your ability to fix a broken car will depend on:
1) What and how it broke
2) Your preparation -- access to spares, tools, materials
3) Your knowledge and resourcefulness
There is a lot of critical mechanical parts on a car that are unrepairable, even at a car shop. Most of critical mechanical stuff on a car can only be fixed with a spare. Even changing your tire is just an act of using a spare. Ever broke anything within engine or transmission? Good luck fixing it with basic tools in wilderness.
When car mechanic says he's repaired something, there is good probability he means he has replaced the part that was faulty.
If you go across Africa, take spares for what is needed and tools to diagnose / repair. If you worry your computer may break, carry a spare. Carry a multimeter, some spare tools and materials to fix common electrical issues.
Electronic spares and tools do not take that much space and if you are worried about electronics there is no excuse not to take them.
People complain they can't repair electronics on a car but that's only because they never applied themselves the same way they applied to learn and fix mechanics.
My father specializes in repairing car / truck / bus etc. electronics. He uses simple tools and his experience to repair things.
He has been flown to from Poland to South Africa to fix a large crane that Volvo could not fix themselves. All with basic tools.
There is nothing inherently more difficult about fixing electronics on a car.
---
As a side note, I would prefer older car to drive over Africa but not because of lack of electronics but rather because of more margins, higher clearances and resistance to wear tear.
As to repairing in the wild they are easier to repair because they are SIMPLER, and the parts are more accessible (as in easier to reach them), not because they don't have electronics.
I am not expert mechanic therefore I will have better chance repairing simple car.
I am not expert electronics engineer therefore I will have better chance repairing car with simple electronics. Does that make sense?
[+] [-] londons_explore|5 years ago|reply
Some mechanical parts are just like electronic ones - you need a massive factory to produce them.
You might argue that ball bearing balls are standard parts so easy to get anywhere, but the same is true of electronic components - a 10uf capacitor is probably within 3 feet of you right now.
All that's missing are the skills to be able to diagnose issues down to a single component rather than saying "the control board is bad, we need to order a new one".
[+] [-] pengaru|5 years ago|reply
The spirit of your comment has truth to it, but it's unclear what exactly is so desirable about your friend's SUV in Africa. In your own words it's "tricked out", how do you know it's not just his modifications that have everyone making offers?
In choosing vehicles for such purposes, the criteria is more nuanced than "no computers". There are factors like fuel type, compression ratio (lower the better, runs fine on shit gas), non-interference design (in case timing belt fails, non-fatal), fewer moving parts in general (so you probably want to avoid an entire decade of non-computer, post-smog vehicles, which tend to have miles of vacuum lines and dozens of solenoids to leak and fail).
The 90s are kind of a sweet spot for computer-controlled post-smog simplicity, where vehicles likely still have throttle cables and no ABS. But you have to go much further back for no computers at all and no insane pre-computer emissions controls, basically pre-75.
[+] [-] vbezhenar|5 years ago|reply
That said, old Toyota cars are still treasury, because they just don't fail. But they're quite costly.
[+] [-] throwaway9870|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MisterTea|5 years ago|reply
I bought a 1961 Mack B61 (year and model #'s coincidental) to restore (slowly) and its a 100% mechanical turbo diesel (ENDT673B). It so dumb that the "ignition" key is just a two position on-off switch which enables the electrics allowing the starter to run when the start button is pushed. To stop the engine, you pull a stop knob which operates a lever on the injection pump pushing the fuel rack to the full-off position. I once let it sit two years without touching it; started up with fresh batteries after checking oil and coolant. That truck will still run and be serviceable in the next 50 years. Maybe parts will be hard to find, but most can be fab'd in a simple machine shop by a single person.
[+] [-] rdtwo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] throwaway4good|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mullingitover|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cybwraith|5 years ago|reply
Too expensive and complex now in the name of "safety". Most additions to required car safety features beyond airbags has been minimal in actual gains compared to the added cost and long term repair complexity induced.
I think entry level cars should be able to be much cheaper and barebones. The recent requirement for backup cameras is one example of too much for too little. I just want a car that gets me from A to B reliably. I don't even care if it has good radio/speakers, power windows, etc.
On the flipside, I hate driving in general. I'll happily pay for a self-driving (or nearly self driving, at least) car with all the gizmos needed to make it work. However I will only "buy" such a car (in the sense of legal ownership) if it has a lifetime warranty or reasonable trade-in guarantees. Otherwise it'd be lease or long term rent only as the repair and upkeep costs on so much proprietary tech would be insane past X years, if its even possible.
Cars are a tool, not a fashion / status symbol for me.
[+] [-] downrightmike|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitcharmer|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrianN|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qwerty456127|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yarcob|5 years ago|reply
A modern engine wouldn't work without chips.
LEDs won't work without chips.
Automatic AC won't work without chips.
ABS, ESP, etc. are all based on microcontrollers as well.
Not even the speedometer needle is actually analog anymore, it's all digital now.
[+] [-] syncsynchalt|5 years ago|reply
I suspect that you don't want fewer chips in those aspects, but would prefer a more analog user interface.
[+] [-] onion2k|5 years ago|reply
Automakers should make cars that are still usable when non-critical components fail. Chips aren't the problem; too many points of failure is the problem.
[+] [-] floatboth|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skavi|5 years ago|reply
https://www.renesas.com/us/en/products/automotive-products
[+] [-] downrightmike|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xadhominemx|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway4good|5 years ago|reply
Is there a single driver?
Or is it just a confluence of events: The US-China tech war (preventing expansion of Chinese factories, causing stock-piling from companies fearful of sanctions), factory shutdowns due to the pandemic, unforseen demand in certain areas (work from home equipment, TVs, GPUs for cryptomining), random accidents like this one.
[+] [-] londons_explore|5 years ago|reply
That means nobody has a global view of future demand (since today most contracts are secret) and cannot invest in capacity accordingly.
[+] [-] dv_dt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] buescher|5 years ago|reply
https://evertiq.com/design/49481
[+] [-] jeffbee|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fomine3|5 years ago|reply
https://www.eetimes.com/fire-destroys-part-of-renesas-fab/
[+] [-] froh|5 years ago|reply
just like you buy another system from another vendor for your data centre, if your usual supplier happens to have production issues.
this would also simplify computer power performance updates, to dunno go from level 2 to level 3 autonomy (assuming sensors are there already).
the vehicle part of the vehicle easily lasts 10-15 years. such standardized vehicle computer infrastructure would not only make automotive vendors more independent from board and soc fluctuations, it would keep the car fresh for a longer period of time, and allow for performance software after-market sales.
why not? what am I missing?
[+] [-] baybal2|5 years ago|reply
This is certainly not a "one month outage"
[+] [-] latch|5 years ago|reply
There are 2 cleanrooms. The 2nd story one is undamaged but needs the 1st story one to be repaired (I assume it's a structural thing?). So I'm curious how, from 1 picture, your comment can be informed?
Also from the article, the fire damaged 5% of the first cleanroom and 11 machines. Maybe they're able to get the other 95% back up and running without having the damaged 600sqft fully functional?
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] turbinerneiter|5 years ago|reply
We weren't able to buy the _150_ micro-controllers we needed for a tiny series production, I'm currently waiting for a literal handful of crimp terminals to be shipped, the 220Vto12V AC/DC converter I normally use is unobtainium.
No PS5. No graphics cards. No Vaccines. 6 month wait for bicycles. The biggest LSD producer in Europe got caught, so no LSD either.
It's like in communism, but you still have to pay rent.
[+] [-] toxik|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]