I actually blame Johnny Ive for this clusterf*ck. Ive famously pursued a crusade for thinness. It's said that design is the art of compromise. Well, Ive took a no compromises approach to thinness and it showed.
Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter.
Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back.
And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that.
The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).
I don't believe the Air got rid of the Touch Bar -- it never had it. It was only on the Pro. What's so "Pro" about replacing the useful function keys (including the escape key) with a bar that does nothing but pick emojis is beyond me.
I strongly dislike the Touch Bar. I'm typing this on a 2019 MacBook Pro whose Touch Bar died yesterday, leaving me with no escape key, no volume buttons, no keyboard brightness buttons, and no play/pause button -- leaving me to do all of those in software -- including escape.
I never found a single useful purpose for the Touch Bar's main mode, so from about two weeks after I bought it, it's been set to simply show function keys ("expanded control strip"). This means I have function keys that accidentally activate when I'm trying to type numbers, that timeout and disappear to save battery, that can't be 'hovered' (touching without pressing) and that have no tactile feedback, slowing you down by forcing you to look away from the screen. And now - I've lost the entire row.
I recently had the choice between a macbook pro and a dell xps. Saw the dell xps had HDMI, USB-C _and_ USB-A and was sold. Its nice to be able to bring my laptop in to a meeting room and just be able to plug in the hdmi cable without needing an adapter. Its also really nice to be able to use all my usb c accessories but without having to go usb C only.
And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.
You can probably use the Ive/Jobs combination to describe evolution. Ive was the mutation source, Jobs was the selection filter. What makes evolution work is selection. Without selection you get crap. Mutation is just the noise you need to have something to apply (recombination and) selection to.
It is hard to say how much post-Jobs was really Ive. But it was clear that Apple got really lost. And it does suggest that Ive was rather mediocre all along. After all, he sinned against one of the most basic principles when you design something: it has to deserve to exist.
In the latter half of the 2010s it got really bad and dare I say: Apple didn't do very well in designing laptops. They really lost touch with reality.
YMMV. My 12" retina MacBook was perhaps my favorite machine I've owned. I have a M1 Air now, I like it as well. There are some pros and cons to both. I do still miss the smaller form factor.
I mostly agree with you, although I'd make one pedantic argument:
The 12" MacBook made a great set of compromises (other than keyboard reliability) for the goal it intended to achieve. I had one for several years and loved it.
The mistake was taking the compromises from the 12" and applying them to the rest of the lineup, where they made no sense at all.
Is it really his fault though? Apple from the beginning pushed the boundaries multiples faster than any other company by asking the engineers to create the impossible, and more often than not they delivered. The butterfly keyboard did work, it just had reliability issues (I loved typing on the butterfly as long as it worked). The problem was that they tried to never take the complaints seriously in the open while secretly trying to fix the design with bandaid after bandaid before finally giving up. That’s the problem, owning up to mistakes (remember the audacity with which Jobs spoke about antenna gate asking the people to hold the phone correct) not the excessive push towards thinness. We reap the benefits of the dogged pursuit by the crazies in the company which just means once in a while they also screw up something.
I have a few custom keys, one which runs a script that finds my airpods, connects, turns on eq (boom), starts spotify, sets volume my normal level, hits play.
I do hate it when the touchbar crashes and requires a reboot, but I've gotten so much milage out of my script keys that I'd rather keep it.
ive is a one trick pony w/ myopic perspective on design - One that is purely focusing on useless aesthetics. Hope apple products going fwd will have superior hardware design that balances usability w/ style.
complain as much as you like, and you may be mostly correct. But you overlooked one absolutely brilliant piece of Apple technology: the ipod nano 7. (insert hysterical laughter). Make fun if you want, it's obsolete, only 16gb, poor battery, old bluetooth etc. You are right, but i challenge anyone to show me anything comparable, with such a good touchscreen, that is slim enough that you don't feel it in your pocket. Every mm matters, and the nano 7 has no parallel afaik. We will look back in 20 and speak with hushed awe about how well packaged the nano 7. You rail against ive's crusade, but it isn't all bad news.
Both my work macbook pro and my personal macbook air have keyboard issues. My personal skips or double hits the letter “e”, which has been a nightmare because I’ve been writing a book the whole time. My work laptop is worse, the command key doesn’t work most of the time. Sometimes I try to copy something, I’ll hit command-c and instead it’ll overwrite my selection with “c”. So I try to undo and hit command-z, so it’ll write “cz”, I hit a number of time which gets me “czzzzzz” (which is funny if I’m on VC and sharing my screen). Then the undo works, I try to copy again, and I hit the same issue again. Im convinced that my mental health has taken a toll in parts due to this. I’m also convinced I have many typos in my book because of this as well.
When the double letters started happening for me, I became legitimately concerned about my own sanity. It didn't occur to me that the keyboard may be faulty since I type quite fast, couldn't reproduce the problem in slow motion, and didn't think Apple products were capable of such fundamental flaws.
I ended up paying Apple more money for an external keyboard and trackpad when the Apple store employee told me that it would take me weeks to get my keyboard fixed. I used to love Apple products, but after my struggle with this issue I absolutely despise them.
Initially, I was skeptical of all the reports about how frequently the issue was happening, and I was starting to believe that it was just hysterics by the anti-Apple crowd. But it was eventually just a matter of time.
First my personal laptop had issues, and I was thankfully able to take advantage of the free keyboard replacement. Then my work laptop began experiencing the same issue, and it's gotten so bad that I had to connect an external keyboard in order to be able to login because I have no way to see which characters are getting screwed up as I type my password.
I keep meaning to take it to the Apple store, but the latest estimates are 5 to 7 days to replace the keyboard and I haven't yet had the opportunity to be without my work machine for that long.
I noticed that on the 12” macbook when it started to get warm. If the keyboard was cool it never happened. But once it was under load keys started getting all janky.
Keyboards shouldn't fail as often as the butterfly keyboards did (and the fact that the most commonly used letters tended to fail first points rather to a wear issue than just breadcrumbs), but most of all, it shouldn't take more than $100 to exchange a failed keyboard. But with the "repair" costs charged for the laptops, they become a write-off basically as soon as they fail out of warranty.
Apple extended no-questions-asked replacement for butterfly keyboards for something like four years after sale.
Don't recall if they refunded replacements before they put that policy in place though.
Mostly mentioning this in case someone is sitting on an out-of-warranty MacBook with a failed keyboard.
My left command key quitting on one of those MBPs brought me right up to the edge of bailing on the whole ecosystem; switching back to scissors for the 16" MBP kept me in the garden, for now.
I'm one of the rare weirdos who really likes the feel of the butterfly keyboard. I love the snappy, tappy reaction. The new "magic" keyboards feel mushy in comparison.
BUT… my 2016 MBP is on its third keyboard, and seems ready for a fourth.
AND… for four years I've been wondering if my typing has been getting progressively worse worse; a couple weeks ago I picked up an M1 Air as a kind of stopgap while waiting for the M1 16".
LO AND BEHOLD: my typing accuracy got better overnight. That fraction of a millimeter between the keys makes a huge difference.
I love the butterfly keyboard. It was a disaster. RIP.
I actually like the very tactile nature. I think it's a shame to have to return to the previous model, where key travel is longer, but the tactility is meh.
I now have RSI after using my 2018 macbook pro. I remember after those came out, everybody's typing was way louder and distracting in meetings - that can't be healthy for your joints. It feels like typing on a block of wood.
100% agree. The butterfly switch MBP I have is by far the worst keyboard I have ever used. After a few hours of typing on that keyboard my fingers are sore from instant bottom out into what feels like a sheet of metal.
Am I the only one who thinks that no travel + tactile feedback actually sound like two highly desirable properties for a keyboard? Whenever I use someone else's butterfly keyboard I'm impressed and a bit jealous, but as I've never used one for long, I can't say whether it's really an improvement.
I'm favorable to keyboards with minimal key travel, and the MBP with its butterfly keys- initially- was amazing. The problem is that after just a few months of regular use some keys started double-activating, or some keys require extra force to activate. And due to the nature of the keys, they were difficult to clean free of regular dust/grime.
I think if it had a really crisp click and actually worked people would like it. I certainly would. The amount of travel is pretty irrelevant if you get solid feedback.
Not sure if just me, but the Butterfly keyboard is the best keyboard I've ever used on a notebook. The thinness didn't matter to me, typing feel felt so much more stable and solid. I don't believe it was created due to a pursuit of thinness.
That said, I didn't have failures other than a couple of minor occurrences, twice I had to clean out my 2016 (with blown air), and never had any issues on my 2018.
Same here! I’m on a 2019 MBP, and absolutely _love_ the butterfly keyboard. I have also had no issues with it. Then again, I find those that do love smashing their fingers down on the keys whereas I lightly tap which I really really like. I am really not looking forward to using a non-butterfly keyboard when I eventually have to upgrade :(
Me too. I love butterfly keyboard. I like how crunchy it feels like typing. I wish they made external keyboards with butterfly mechanism because I'd love to have one for my PC.
Super anecdotal comment here, but my down arrow key on my Macbook Air M1 2020 was recently sticking. No spills. Removed it, found nothing, and tried to put it back, but now I've cracked the key. Off to the Apple Genius bar I go. I've had it for nearly 4 months now. Hopefully this is just a one off.
Not sure about the new ones, but the old butterfly key caps were really thin and brittle plastic. And unlike other laptops they were attached with hooks and clips, which makes it hard to remove the cap without snapping the flimsy hook. It's just cheaply made. Compared to something like my t480s, I've been pounding on it for a few years now and no issues whatsoever, I can spill a drink, it's full of crumbs and dust, but still going. I even dropped it, replaced the lcd in a local shop. Screw apple, I'm not going back, even the m1 is not tempting me. I love the ports, repairability and ruggedness too much to give it up.
So what does this class action mean in real terms? I have an impacted MacBook and it will run out of the repair date in a few months. Is that going to get extended? If not, am I going to get the massive loss in resale?
I am assuming it means the lawyers will make bank and I'll get a check for a hundred or so.
This is one of the few times someone has lied directly to my face, and I will always remember it.
The issue was plastered all over the internet with people even writing apps to solve the issue by disabling key-repeat etc.
I go into the store and say "my MacBook is doing the double key press thing, same issue everyone's talking about online", and the guy says to me "oh we are not aware of this". I should have done a Google search to show him all the posts in retrospect.
It was such blatant bullshit. They repaired my MacBook under warranty, but just useless lying to customers.
I will never forget getting my Butterfly MBP repaired (within the warranty), and the Apple employee telling me it would have been $600 but they were generously doing this for free, this time.
I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit. I hated butterfly keyboard the moment I tried it, which is why I stopped upgrading/buying MacBook Pro entirely. People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying. They stuck to it.
What's the ground for the class action ? Did Apple make any misleading presentation ? Otherwise, this feels like suing simply because you don't like the product (when they had all the chances to not buy or return).
> People who bought had all the chances to try and decide not to buy, or to even return after trying
Random missed keystrokes long after the return period are the problem. Mine is 3 years old and I just had the keyboard[1] swapped out by Apple under the extended warranty. It was sometimes missing arrow key strokes for a while, but when it started missing spacebar, that was when I got it replaced. They only extended the warranty to 4 years so I figured now was my window.
Apple also claimed several times to have fixed the issue with this keyboard. I believe every year up until 2019 they made these claims. It was never the case. My 2019 MBP from work is in the initial "occasional dust-under-the-key" stage of failure.
[1] - Because the MBP is so unrepairable, they have to replace the battery when they swap the keyboard. So for anyone with one of these, get it replaced for an additional free battery refresh.
The problem isn't that it feels bad - that of course is personal preference and would not be grounds for a class action. The problem is that it breaks quickly, which is not something that you can find out by trying it out for 10 minutes in a shop.
> I'm not sure I fully understand the rationale behind this lawsuit.
The lawsuit itself is clear as to the rationale. [0]
> What's the ground for the class action ?
There are several.
> Did Apple make any misleading presentation ?
As alleged, yes, both about the product itself and what Apple would do if there was a problem (given that failing to uphold the explicit warranty in good faith is one of the claims.)
[+] [-] cletus|5 years ago|reply
Look no further than the 12" Macbook. One port (also needed for power), lower power CPU and (I believe?) the start of the dreaded butterfly keyboard. IIRC the butterfly keyboard's raison d'etre was to shave half a millimeter off the thickness of a Macbook. That's... it. Oh and that same crusade is probably a big part of why we lost the MagSafe adapter.
Compare the 12" Macbook to the (2010 and onwards) Macbook Air. A good compromise of thinness, power, ports and price point. For years, many (including myself) just wanted an upgrade to the Macbook Air with a retina display (and more modern ports). But we didn't, we got the "no compromises" Macbook instead.. until that was (thankfully) killed and the macbook Air came back.
And sure Ive designed the 2008 Macbook Air and he deserves credit for his design but... he clearly went off the deep end at some point after that.
The M1 Air even got rid of the stupid touch bar (thank God).
[+] [-] TheRealSteel|5 years ago|reply
I strongly dislike the Touch Bar. I'm typing this on a 2019 MacBook Pro whose Touch Bar died yesterday, leaving me with no escape key, no volume buttons, no keyboard brightness buttons, and no play/pause button -- leaving me to do all of those in software -- including escape.
I never found a single useful purpose for the Touch Bar's main mode, so from about two weeks after I bought it, it's been set to simply show function keys ("expanded control strip"). This means I have function keys that accidentally activate when I'm trying to type numbers, that timeout and disappear to save battery, that can't be 'hovered' (touching without pressing) and that have no tactile feedback, slowing you down by forcing you to look away from the screen. And now - I've lost the entire row.
[+] [-] SilverRed|5 years ago|reply
And its not noticeably thicker than the macbook either. I can understand the pursuit of thinness or at least weight reduction in mobile devices. If the iPad was any heavier, you wouldn't be able to use it while standing. But on a laptop there is a lot more room for weight and thickness. As log as its comfortable to carry, that's good enough.
[+] [-] bborud|5 years ago|reply
It is hard to say how much post-Jobs was really Ive. But it was clear that Apple got really lost. And it does suggest that Ive was rather mediocre all along. After all, he sinned against one of the most basic principles when you design something: it has to deserve to exist.
In the latter half of the 2010s it got really bad and dare I say: Apple didn't do very well in designing laptops. They really lost touch with reality.
[+] [-] jghn|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cehrlich|5 years ago|reply
The 12" MacBook made a great set of compromises (other than keyboard reliability) for the goal it intended to achieve. I had one for several years and loved it.
The mistake was taking the compromises from the 12" and applying them to the rest of the lineup, where they made no sense at all.
[+] [-] ramraj07|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irjustin|5 years ago|reply
I have a few custom keys, one which runs a script that finds my airpods, connects, turns on eq (boom), starts spotify, sets volume my normal level, hits play.
I do hate it when the touchbar crashes and requires a reboot, but I've gotten so much milage out of my script keys that I'd rather keep it.
[+] [-] jordache|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onelovetwo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marshmallow_12|5 years ago|reply
Rip iPod
[+] [-] baby|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] primitivesuave|5 years ago|reply
I ended up paying Apple more money for an external keyboard and trackpad when the Apple store employee told me that it would take me weeks to get my keyboard fixed. I used to love Apple products, but after my struggle with this issue I absolutely despise them.
[+] [-] wilkystyle|5 years ago|reply
Initially, I was skeptical of all the reports about how frequently the issue was happening, and I was starting to believe that it was just hysterics by the anti-Apple crowd. But it was eventually just a matter of time.
First my personal laptop had issues, and I was thankfully able to take advantage of the free keyboard replacement. Then my work laptop began experiencing the same issue, and it's gotten so bad that I had to connect an external keyboard in order to be able to login because I have no way to see which characters are getting screwed up as I type my password.
I keep meaning to take it to the Apple store, but the latest estimates are 5 to 7 days to replace the keyboard and I haven't yet had the opportunity to be without my work machine for that long.
[+] [-] shepardrtc|5 years ago|reply
It works. Fixed my 'e' key, fixed my spacebar, fixed all of them. You have to hold it at weird angles but it works.
[+] [-] benttoothpaste|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dawnerd|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _ph_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samatman|5 years ago|reply
Don't recall if they refunded replacements before they put that policy in place though.
Mostly mentioning this in case someone is sitting on an out-of-warranty MacBook with a failed keyboard.
My left command key quitting on one of those MBPs brought me right up to the edge of bailing on the whole ecosystem; switching back to scissors for the 16" MBP kept me in the garden, for now.
[+] [-] bluedino|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] batterylow|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eric_WVGG|5 years ago|reply
BUT… my 2016 MBP is on its third keyboard, and seems ready for a fourth.
AND… for four years I've been wondering if my typing has been getting progressively worse worse; a couple weeks ago I picked up an M1 Air as a kind of stopgap while waiting for the M1 16".
LO AND BEHOLD: my typing accuracy got better overnight. That fraction of a millimeter between the keys makes a huge difference.
I love the butterfly keyboard. It was a disaster. RIP.
[+] [-] rbanffy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] QuercusMax|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mark_story|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] luxuryballs|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teruakohatu|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ornxka|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wildrhythms|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] protomyth|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dkjaudyeqooe|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FPGAhacker|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] turtlebits|5 years ago|reply
That said, I didn't have failures other than a couple of minor occurrences, twice I had to clean out my 2016 (with blown air), and never had any issues on my 2018.
[+] [-] Mayzie|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skocznymroczny|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wodenokoto|5 years ago|reply
I think it’s a great typing experience but they do break too easily.
[+] [-] dsego|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unfocused|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsego|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wintermutestwin|5 years ago|reply
I am assuming it means the lawyers will make bank and I'll get a check for a hundred or so.
[+] [-] erlich|5 years ago|reply
The issue was plastered all over the internet with people even writing apps to solve the issue by disabling key-repeat etc.
I go into the store and say "my MacBook is doing the double key press thing, same issue everyone's talking about online", and the guy says to me "oh we are not aware of this". I should have done a Google search to show him all the posts in retrospect.
It was such blatant bullshit. They repaired my MacBook under warranty, but just useless lying to customers.
[+] [-] high_derivative|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shepardrtc|5 years ago|reply
It fixed many keys for me after I had just about given up.
[+] [-] baby|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drivebycomment|5 years ago|reply
What's the ground for the class action ? Did Apple make any misleading presentation ? Otherwise, this feels like suing simply because you don't like the product (when they had all the chances to not buy or return).
[+] [-] zamalek|5 years ago|reply
Apple stuck to the message that the problem was the users, not the switches. For multiple product iterations. They even suggested buying air duster.
[+] [-] trimbo|5 years ago|reply
Random missed keystrokes long after the return period are the problem. Mine is 3 years old and I just had the keyboard[1] swapped out by Apple under the extended warranty. It was sometimes missing arrow key strokes for a while, but when it started missing spacebar, that was when I got it replaced. They only extended the warranty to 4 years so I figured now was my window.
Apple also claimed several times to have fixed the issue with this keyboard. I believe every year up until 2019 they made these claims. It was never the case. My 2019 MBP from work is in the initial "occasional dust-under-the-key" stage of failure.
[1] - Because the MBP is so unrepairable, they have to replace the battery when they swap the keyboard. So for anyone with one of these, get it replaced for an additional free battery refresh.
[+] [-] p1necone|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|5 years ago|reply
The lawsuit itself is clear as to the rationale. [0]
> What's the ground for the class action ?
There are several.
> Did Apple make any misleading presentation ?
As alleged, yes, both about the product itself and what Apple would do if there was a problem (given that failing to uphold the explicit warranty in good faith is one of the claims.)
[0] https://www.girardsharp.com/assets/htmldocuments/2018-10-10%...
[+] [-] detaro|5 years ago|reply