What's interesting about acquisitions like this is that the actual value that is being transacted is the userbase and their data, along with the inability for either of those to easily move elsewhere.
No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own. But users are locked into platforms so heavily and for such long time periods that they themselves give the platform almost the entirety of its value (not to single out Discord, since we all know this is how a lot of acquisitions work in practice). [As an additional caveat, I will add that Discord has definitely built something that its users love, and I don't want to undermine the absurd amount of UI, feature refinement, and scaling work they've done successfully. It isn't negligible, but it is also not >$10B of software engineering.]
I've read many discussions where someone says something of the form "I wish I didn't have to use X, but my friends and family all use it, so I'm forced to", and I think upon consideration of this statement that there is something deeply wrong with the way network effects and protocols function on our Internet such that this can even be a common scenario. We really do have quite a crisis of non-interoperability that generalizes towards a complete lack of user control, be it software, hardware, data, or anything in between.
With that said, if Microsoft does purchase Discord, it might not be as bad as some foretell. While we can point to something like Skype as a failure, we can also point to something like Github, which has been doing very well post-acquisition, and in my opinion hasn't gotten worse at all. It's quite possible they wouldn't want to profit off of Discord individually, but rather use it as another tool to expand their general ecosystem horizontally. On the other hand, they could also do the exact opposite and start harvesting data and maximizing advertisements en masse, lest my post become too optimistic in tone, since this is still HN. Lastly, remember that this is still just a rumor that various news outlets have picked up on and is nowhere near guaranteed.
For those looking for alternatives due to this, or just because they'd like to own their own data for once, I think Matrix is likely to be the best general solution in this product space, both with respect to similar app functionality as well as quality constraints (real encryption, decentralization, FOSS, etc).
>No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own.
I'd hard argue
I've been using various VoIPs / Voice apps over last 15 years almost everyday - ventrilo, teamspeak, mumble, skype and I must say that Discord is unparalleled.
It fucking eats competition by it's quality, design and technology (API, BOTS). It offers also some kind of innovation because none of those most popular VoIPs / Voice apps combined Voice+Chat+Screen Streaming!
Things like Skype, MS Teams and probably similar CANNOT EVEN IMPLEMENT BASIC FEATURE LIKE PUSH 2 TALK THAT VENTRILO (or software that's aware of gaming users) HAD LIKE 15 OR MORE YEARS AGO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24429842
So how is it that "No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own." yet nobody can some with something that's even cloes to Discord?
>No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own.
Not sure about that one. Teams is an absolute failure of a chat and audio/video calls app. I think, even if Microsoft tried they could not get it worse than it is currently.
> but it is also not >$10B of software engineering
Really? How did you come to this conclusion?
Discord is, without a doubt, 10x better than Slack, Teams, or Zoom combined. They've solved the problem of a communication in the non-business space. That's huge.
For comparison, look at Coinbase, who has a 100B valuation. What they're doing is relatively trivial. Is that >10x the value of Discord?
I don't even think Coinbase is overvalued. 10B for Discord is just a steal.
It is a great payout to its owners. This is a sad end for Discord if history if any indicator. It was very useful, but I doubt it will remain so for much longer. And this does not even take privacy, or lack thereof, into consideration.
> I've read many discussions where someone says something of the form "I wish I didn't have to use X, but my friends and family all use it, so I'm forced to",
I know a person who keeps an entire virtualbox guest virtual machine that only has access to the internet through a VPN service, for the purpose of logging into Facebook in a browser interface. For the unavoidable purpose of keeping in touch with non technical family members who refuse to use anything else.
I strongly agree with your comment about network effects and something being deeply wrong with the state of things. It's one of the topics that gets me righteously angry these days...
I also have big hopes for Matrix, and run my own homeserver with a bridge or two. Here's to decentralized, encrypted, community based communication for everybody!
> We really do have quite a crisis of non-interoperability
Interoperability in communication software is impossible. I know this will upset a lot of people here but its just what we have seen time and time again.
Interoperable and standard software can not innovate because it is impossible to innovate since you need all vendors to agree and move in the same direction as you. Look at how ircv3 went. They promised the absolute bare minimum change to make irc slightly more modern and they weren't able to pull it off in time.
Discord could not be interoperable with other systems because most of its features did not exist at the time it added them. Interoperability means catering to the lowest common denominator of feature sets.
As discord has shown, siloed platforms are not the end, people will move to a new platform if it is clearly better. Discord was much much better than the rest so everyone moved. If someone else makes something much much better again they will move again.
Could MS really build the Discord tech stack themselves though? At first blush it might be possible in theory if you look at only the key algorithms, architecture, and compute needed.
But what about actually getting the engineering headcount to execute? And to build it with enough flexibility to experiment and adapt to users? And to pick technical challenges that will actually keep the headcount engaged?
Google Plus seems to be a pretty good example of a competitor doing a copycat, doing a decent job technically, but then the product fell apart. Plus didn’t hit Facebook-scale growth, but it was wildly popular with certain niches like the CS academic community. Imagine if Plus had channels (in addition to circles), less corporate emojis, and 100% private circles. Then you’d have most of Discord, no?
But Google didn’t build into Plus that ability to iterate. And the headcount got interested in other things like AI. And Alphabet got to join cookies through unified auth to get their ad targeting more competitive with FB. So the Googlers had their giant offsite in Maui and then let Plus die.
So I don’t know if the tech stack in this Discord deal is necessarily worthless. The user engagement is probably worth more, but the software is part of the whole organism.
I guess I would suggest though that while something like Discord could be recreated by a Microsoft, the culture that grew it can't be replicated. Using Teams, it feels like a product built by committee where it's so disorienting and slow compared to Discord. They're different target markets (gamers vs businesses) but I imagine Teams by a different culture would turn out entirely differently
Welcome, men and ladies of Discord. Rather than incestuously promoting the same faces from within, you represent fresh blood, new ideas. Everything teams was not. It is my honor to personally welcome you all to Microsoft.
Unlike github which is/was relatively "safe-ish", Discord is full of boards for distributing fan porn, real porn, warez, etc.... I'd expect if MS buys it it will be like the Tumblr porn purge.
There are tons of pateron pron creators running discords for their patrons.
The problem with this approach is that the value of the acquired products falls dramatically. Think about Facebook and Oculus: many people are simply fed up with spying Behemoths controlling all aspects of their lives. I don't believe it would be as dramatic with Microsoft and Discord, but sure some users will rebel. Good for the landscape - Discord basically monopolized gaming communication market, it's time for some interesting developments, this time preferably with open standards.
The users of Discord use it because it's better designed, marketed, and implemented than alternatives.
If Microsoft was capable of building equivalent technology on their own they had plenty of opportunity to do so.
Maybe in Microsoft's eyes they are paying for the users, but from another perspective the users are only using Discord and not Skype, MSN, Teams, etc, because Microsoft has not built/maintained something as good, and maybe isn't capable of doing so.
Microsoft has an important business reason as to why GitHub needs to retain its quality - they have access to a universe of confidential corporate data - source codes, inventions, product issues, workflows and so on. They can look up what companies are up to and use that to create their own competing products. Something like Amazon does when they ask sellers on the platform to reveal all their leads and suppliers and then introduce their own cheaper version of the product. Only that Microsoft does not have to ask for this, as they already have all this data.
I don't think there is evidence now that Microsoft is doing anything with this data, but it only takes a change in the management.
> No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own.
Surprisingly, they didn’t. I am using Microsoft Teams for work daily, and that is the buggiest and the most poorly designed application I have ever used, not to mention their awful macOS integration or how they synchronise notification statuses between devices.
I read somewhere that the Teams concept came out of a hackathon where someone integrated skype with sharepoint. It still feels like it is a proof-of-concept rather than a production ready application.
That’s a fairly cynical take. A more generous interpretation is that they’re not buying an application, they’re buying a working business — which is more than you can say about many startup acquisitions.
Funny this reversal of network effect. In the decades prior people didn't feel negatively pressured to join, say the landline network. I may be wrong but it felt like an obvious desire and benefit.
Anyone who's familiar with Teams should be well aware that, though Microsoft surely could build a decent chat application, they certainly don't seem motivated to.
"No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own."
MS is actually one of the few companies that could try.
Most companies are unable to innovate even with a clean spec in front of them.
With the 'real time' aspect of Discord, which makes it much harder than MSTeams/Slack .... it's that much riskier.
Look at how s**t Skype is.
So the question then becomes one of risk on the product side.
But the brand and userbase is the valuable thing at the end, 'Mixer' was never able to catch up to Twitch despite having a decent product and XBox lockin.
> "I wish I didn't have to use X, but my friends and family all use it, so I'm forced to"
That is why we need more GDPR, more laws giving you right to see all the data they've gather on you, along with how they connect it to other data they have on you too.
This way people have a chance to educate themselves on all the things they gave up in order to have better emoji (as one friend suggested that the emojis was what Signal lacks awhile back).
Introducing Microsoft Teams for Gamers, a new platform that empowers gamers to get the best out of their gaming sessions. Game, meet, chat, call, and collaborate in just one place.
Discord Meet Now is now available in Windows 10 taskbar so you can meet with a simple click. No sign ups. No downloads required.
Would you like to try Discord in the new Microsoft Edge, "the browser recommended by Microsoft"?
Discord would be crazy to not take this deal. They could go public, but they have no clear monetization path to ever reach that valuation.
For Microsoft, however, it holds incredible strategic importance to their Xbox division. If suddenly the #1 gaming voice and text chat on PC is fully cross-compatible with Xbox and Xbox services it puts Sony at a huge ecosystem disadvantage. When added to the context of Microsoft's acquisition of Bethesda and their shift in strategy to Xbox as a service it makes perfect sense.
One thing that Microsoft always messes up (especially with its acquisitions) is the Login. Microsoft apps have the worst login flows I've seen - not only is it inconsistent across sites, it is also slow often requiring many redirects.
It may be just me, but the Login experience is an essential one for me.
Yep, Microsoft login experience has been getting worse over the years.
The current one I go through for Office 365 is like this:
- type in email, click "next"
- wait for next page to load
- type in password, click "next"
- wait for next page to load
- 2FA, click "next"
- wait for next page to load
- click "next"
I suppose this means Discord for Enterprise is never happening, which stinks because it honestly is the most user friendly out of all of these chat applications with the team-> channel setup. Kind of reminiscent of Basecamp in the project management space, in that respect.
Maybe they’ll take some performance and UX cues and add them to Teams (but I’m saying this about the people who decided to make a greenfield chat/collaboration tool and make the file storage backend SharePoint, so, I suppose I’ll just cry)
Matrix is comparatively lacking in features, tends to be somewhat slow, and is not a platform that any kid can sign up on for free and be chatting on any device within minutes.
I hope things will improve with Matrix, but for now I also hope that MS doesn't totally fuck up Discord.
Also slightly terrifying are the privacy implications. I never expected privacy with Discord, but now that MS is involved I expect that every interaction with the interface will be tracked, analyzed, and used to target ads at me. And is waiting to be exfiltrated in a data leak.
Microsoft buys communities. From the 20% Facebook investment to LinkedIn, GitHub, Minecraft, etc they are aggregating and integrating massive, generation defining audiences. Discord is most definitely that for gamers, pandemic teens, and frankly any SMB with foresight. It’s a fantastic platform. It has the same moderation issues that all online communities have, but it generally happens at a server level.
It’s very much a fit for their portfolio, and it’s a great time to sell for them. Nitro can’t do that much in sales, but certainly Microsoft will find a way to make money with it.
Please don't do this. Microsoft chat services are the absolute worst. I've had to use Skype for years after Microsoft purchased it and it was bad. I have to use Teams for work and it's just abysmal. I don't know why but everything Microsoft touches in this space turns to absolute trash.
To be honest, my friends and I just want the P2P reliability of Skype back. MS just ruined the UI and experience so badly that Discord, despite being slower, was preferable.
For example, I got hacked on Skype. Already I’m upset because it wasn’t my fault. However, I couldn’t delete the malicious link it messaged to all of my friends because reasons. Instead, I had to contact each individually to tell them not to click the link.
It’s a lot of stuff like that where Skype actively worked against its user base on each new release.
Imagine if Twitch had went all in on becoming a Twitch / Patreon platform instead of the failed game store. One stop shop for monetizing and interacting with your communities.
I really hope in the future that a policy can be set in place that prevents these types of acquisitions (on this scale, specifically) from happening. A lot of my favorite products have been ruined by acquisitions like this, and its clear that Microsoft will follow suite considering their track record.
Does the concept of antitrust even exist anymore? Or is this our future: new startups grow for a decade than get absorbed by one of ten monster corporations.
This is surprising given Discord had 2 fundraising rounds in 2020 alone. If that wasn't to gain momentum for an IPO, then they must just be losing cash very quickly.
For MS, the obvious integration point is Xbox Game Pass, but Discord has been busy pushing gamers off their platform for the past year in favor of broader communities. It'll be interesting to see if they reverse course here, or if MS will position Discord as a free community version of Teams.
If you're looking for a better alternative, check out Guilded (YCS17) - https://www.guilded.gg
I've heard users say Guilded makes Discord look like Skype, but didn't realize how accurate that would become.
Disclaimer: I work at Guilded, but views are my own, etc
[+] [-] ve55|5 years ago|reply
No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own. But users are locked into platforms so heavily and for such long time periods that they themselves give the platform almost the entirety of its value (not to single out Discord, since we all know this is how a lot of acquisitions work in practice). [As an additional caveat, I will add that Discord has definitely built something that its users love, and I don't want to undermine the absurd amount of UI, feature refinement, and scaling work they've done successfully. It isn't negligible, but it is also not >$10B of software engineering.]
I've read many discussions where someone says something of the form "I wish I didn't have to use X, but my friends and family all use it, so I'm forced to", and I think upon consideration of this statement that there is something deeply wrong with the way network effects and protocols function on our Internet such that this can even be a common scenario. We really do have quite a crisis of non-interoperability that generalizes towards a complete lack of user control, be it software, hardware, data, or anything in between.
With that said, if Microsoft does purchase Discord, it might not be as bad as some foretell. While we can point to something like Skype as a failure, we can also point to something like Github, which has been doing very well post-acquisition, and in my opinion hasn't gotten worse at all. It's quite possible they wouldn't want to profit off of Discord individually, but rather use it as another tool to expand their general ecosystem horizontally. On the other hand, they could also do the exact opposite and start harvesting data and maximizing advertisements en masse, lest my post become too optimistic in tone, since this is still HN. Lastly, remember that this is still just a rumor that various news outlets have picked up on and is nowhere near guaranteed.
For those looking for alternatives due to this, or just because they'd like to own their own data for once, I think Matrix is likely to be the best general solution in this product space, both with respect to similar app functionality as well as quality constraints (real encryption, decentralization, FOSS, etc).
[+] [-] tester34|5 years ago|reply
I'd hard argue
I've been using various VoIPs / Voice apps over last 15 years almost everyday - ventrilo, teamspeak, mumble, skype and I must say that Discord is unparalleled.
It fucking eats competition by it's quality, design and technology (API, BOTS). It offers also some kind of innovation because none of those most popular VoIPs / Voice apps combined Voice+Chat+Screen Streaming!
Things like Skype, MS Teams and probably similar CANNOT EVEN IMPLEMENT BASIC FEATURE LIKE PUSH 2 TALK THAT VENTRILO (or software that's aware of gaming users) HAD LIKE 15 OR MORE YEARS AGO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24429842
So how is it that "No one wants to buy the actual chat application itself, because they could build equivalent technology on their own." yet nobody can some with something that's even cloes to Discord?
[+] [-] xxs|5 years ago|reply
Not sure about that one. Teams is an absolute failure of a chat and audio/video calls app. I think, even if Microsoft tried they could not get it worse than it is currently.
[+] [-] torbital|5 years ago|reply
Really? How did you come to this conclusion?
Discord is, without a doubt, 10x better than Slack, Teams, or Zoom combined. They've solved the problem of a communication in the non-business space. That's huge.
For comparison, look at Coinbase, who has a 100B valuation. What they're doing is relatively trivial. Is that >10x the value of Discord?
I don't even think Coinbase is overvalued. 10B for Discord is just a steal.
[+] [-] A4ET8a8uTh0|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walrus01|5 years ago|reply
I know a person who keeps an entire virtualbox guest virtual machine that only has access to the internet through a VPN service, for the purpose of logging into Facebook in a browser interface. For the unavoidable purpose of keeping in touch with non technical family members who refuse to use anything else.
[+] [-] miloignis|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SilverRed|5 years ago|reply
Interoperability in communication software is impossible. I know this will upset a lot of people here but its just what we have seen time and time again.
Interoperable and standard software can not innovate because it is impossible to innovate since you need all vendors to agree and move in the same direction as you. Look at how ircv3 went. They promised the absolute bare minimum change to make irc slightly more modern and they weren't able to pull it off in time.
Discord could not be interoperable with other systems because most of its features did not exist at the time it added them. Interoperability means catering to the lowest common denominator of feature sets.
As discord has shown, siloed platforms are not the end, people will move to a new platform if it is clearly better. Discord was much much better than the rest so everyone moved. If someone else makes something much much better again they will move again.
[+] [-] choppaface|5 years ago|reply
But what about actually getting the engineering headcount to execute? And to build it with enough flexibility to experiment and adapt to users? And to pick technical challenges that will actually keep the headcount engaged?
Google Plus seems to be a pretty good example of a competitor doing a copycat, doing a decent job technically, but then the product fell apart. Plus didn’t hit Facebook-scale growth, but it was wildly popular with certain niches like the CS academic community. Imagine if Plus had channels (in addition to circles), less corporate emojis, and 100% private circles. Then you’d have most of Discord, no?
But Google didn’t build into Plus that ability to iterate. And the headcount got interested in other things like AI. And Alphabet got to join cookies through unified auth to get their ad targeting more competitive with FB. So the Googlers had their giant offsite in Maui and then let Plus die.
So I don’t know if the tech stack in this Discord deal is necessarily worthless. The user engagement is probably worth more, but the software is part of the whole organism.
[+] [-] spondyl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PicassoCTs|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SergeAx|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pronlover723|5 years ago|reply
There are tons of pateron pron creators running discords for their patrons.
[+] [-] dvfjsdhgfv|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atom_arranger|5 years ago|reply
If Microsoft was capable of building equivalent technology on their own they had plenty of opportunity to do so.
Maybe in Microsoft's eyes they are paying for the users, but from another perspective the users are only using Discord and not Skype, MSN, Teams, etc, because Microsoft has not built/maintained something as good, and maybe isn't capable of doing so.
[+] [-] varispeed|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chiefalchemist|5 years ago|reply
Regardless of the strength or weakness of the product MS' emphasis will to harvest and aggregate data, and then profit from that.
[+] [-] zhenyakovalyov|5 years ago|reply
Surprisingly, they didn’t. I am using Microsoft Teams for work daily, and that is the buggiest and the most poorly designed application I have ever used, not to mention their awful macOS integration or how they synchronise notification statuses between devices.
I read somewhere that the Teams concept came out of a hackathon where someone integrated skype with sharepoint. It still feels like it is a proof-of-concept rather than a production ready application.
[+] [-] pdpi|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jariel|5 years ago|reply
People are not going to move away from Discored 'because Microsoft' - however, they will move away if MS screws it up.
[+] [-] agumonkey|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ComodoHacker|5 years ago|reply
I haven't used Discord, but I'm curious, what value can Microsoft extract from user data on Discord? Shared links?
Microsoft isn't a data company.
[+] [-] bydo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jariel|5 years ago|reply
MS is actually one of the few companies that could try.
Most companies are unable to innovate even with a clean spec in front of them.
With the 'real time' aspect of Discord, which makes it much harder than MSTeams/Slack .... it's that much riskier.
Look at how s**t Skype is.
So the question then becomes one of risk on the product side.
But the brand and userbase is the valuable thing at the end, 'Mixer' was never able to catch up to Twitch despite having a decent product and XBox lockin.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kitd|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EastSmith|5 years ago|reply
That is why we need more GDPR, more laws giving you right to see all the data they've gather on you, along with how they connect it to other data they have on you too.
This way people have a chance to educate themselves on all the things they gave up in order to have better emoji (as one friend suggested that the emojis was what Signal lacks awhile back).
[+] [-] ffpip|5 years ago|reply
Discord Meet Now is now available in Windows 10 taskbar so you can meet with a simple click. No sign ups. No downloads required.
Would you like to try Discord in the new Microsoft Edge, "the browser recommended by Microsoft"?
[+] [-] etempleton|5 years ago|reply
For Microsoft, however, it holds incredible strategic importance to their Xbox division. If suddenly the #1 gaming voice and text chat on PC is fully cross-compatible with Xbox and Xbox services it puts Sony at a huge ecosystem disadvantage. When added to the context of Microsoft's acquisition of Bethesda and their shift in strategy to Xbox as a service it makes perfect sense.
[+] [-] jeswin|5 years ago|reply
It may be just me, but the Login experience is an essential one for me.
[+] [-] chillfox|5 years ago|reply
The current one I go through for Office 365 is like this:
[+] [-] easton|5 years ago|reply
Maybe they’ll take some performance and UX cues and add them to Teams (but I’m saying this about the people who decided to make a greenfield chat/collaboration tool and make the file storage backend SharePoint, so, I suppose I’ll just cry)
[+] [-] nerdponx|5 years ago|reply
Matrix is comparatively lacking in features, tends to be somewhat slow, and is not a platform that any kid can sign up on for free and be chatting on any device within minutes.
I hope things will improve with Matrix, but for now I also hope that MS doesn't totally fuck up Discord.
Also slightly terrifying are the privacy implications. I never expected privacy with Discord, but now that MS is involved I expect that every interaction with the interface will be tracked, analyzed, and used to target ads at me. And is waiting to be exfiltrated in a data leak.
[+] [-] musicale|5 years ago|reply
I really hope Discord won't just be sucked into Teams or turned into an Xbox thing.
I also fear that MS Discord might destroy any remote chance of a Discord app on PS5 or Switch.
[+] [-] Ericson2314|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IceWreck|5 years ago|reply
Also, kind of modern IRC.
[+] [-] reilly3000|5 years ago|reply
It’s very much a fit for their portfolio, and it’s a great time to sell for them. Nitro can’t do that much in sales, but certainly Microsoft will find a way to make money with it.
[+] [-] BoysenberryPi|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbob45|5 years ago|reply
For example, I got hacked on Skype. Already I’m upset because it wasn’t my fault. However, I couldn’t delete the malicious link it messaged to all of my friends because reasons. Instead, I had to contact each individually to tell them not to click the link.
It’s a lot of stuff like that where Skype actively worked against its user base on each new release.
[+] [-] leetrout|5 years ago|reply
https://www.mumble.info/
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dyeje|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corobo|5 years ago|reply
Also the account you use for Discord is now the same one as the one with all your Azure stuff on it.
Yayy. Please Microsoft, ruin more social apps.
[+] [-] lprd|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceilingcorner|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeroCool2u|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guptaneil|5 years ago|reply
For MS, the obvious integration point is Xbox Game Pass, but Discord has been busy pushing gamers off their platform for the past year in favor of broader communities. It'll be interesting to see if they reverse course here, or if MS will position Discord as a free community version of Teams.
If you're looking for a better alternative, check out Guilded (YCS17) - https://www.guilded.gg
I've heard users say Guilded makes Discord look like Skype, but didn't realize how accurate that would become.
Disclaimer: I work at Guilded, but views are my own, etc
[+] [-] roselan|5 years ago|reply
Why should I drop discord? Why should I create an account? Why should I download the app and not test in browser?
Even at the bottom: > Ready to try Guilded? > It's easy and free.
If there is a try, there is a catch. (maybe not but on the web it's implied nowadays)
This is not appealing at all.
I'm pretty sure the product is good but your "marketing" sounds completely off to me.
[+] [-] Dracophoenix|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]