As little as I like to do this, I think it's important to bring up the "autism" topic, because I see way too many autistic programmers being thrown under the bus for stuff like this. To start, the three smartest programmers I personally know are autistic, and all of them struggle to make sound judgement calls at the drop of a hat. I've seen them lambasted in IRC channels for saying stupid things or slipping up a function name when writing documentation, but every one of them could out-code their harasser at a moments notice. I get the feeling we're in the same boat with RMS, since I've seen his behavior before in neurodivergent programmers: hard-headedness, dedication to a fault, and speaking his mind even when the social repercussions could blow up in his face. His Aspbergers is part of what makes him who he is, and I'd rather have a distastefully transparent board member than a muzzled figurehead. I value Stallman's voice, and I honestly feel bad that his slips are being sensationalized now.
I think getting physiology in this is just wrong. I don't know whether RMS is on the spectrum, and whether he would have been diagnosed as one if he passed some tests. I think it's beyond the point - even non-autistic people can make bad judgements, make mistakes, behave awkwardly, be stubborn and behave in socially awkward manner. Making it like "if we find a bad statement in your past, we're going to ruin your life, but if you have this magic paper then it's ok" - is not how you solve a problem or people's lives being ruined. RMS's voice is important not because he may or may not have certain condition, but because of what he's been saying and doing for years. It's not about autism, especially not about making it yet another "protected identity" checkbox.
> I hosted rms many years ago in the 90’s, what was supposed to be hosting your hero for a ~3 day thing became a ~2 month nightmare. I joined a small club “never host rms ever again”. To cope with it, I used to collect the horror stories.
> He met a woman on the first evening in town, and extended his stay. One day, I came home from work and she had moved in.
I don't personally know any autistic person, but this doesn't sound like autism. How many autistic person visits a new town, goes into a bar, and brings back a woman to your friend's bedroom, without asking the friend first? This sounds more like a run-of-the-mill asshole.
Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes:
> According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking point,” it turns out the numbers don’t fit that narrative. Turns out just about everyone thinks we need more free speech. This includes large pluralities of all races (e.g. 75% of African Americans, 87% of Hispanics) and all ages (e.g. 79% of Americans under age 24).
> A 2017 poll of 2,300 U.S. adults, found that 71% Americans believe that political correctness has silenced important discussions our society needs to have and 58% of Americans believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their own political beliefs.
Edit: Speaking of, somebody is flagging this story (to be clear, not this comment) to keep people from even discussing the topic. As of writing, they succeeded. We need a “this shouldn’t be flagged” button
I fully support RMS being on the FSF board for life.
(I also think he would be fantastic making a cameo in a bit part in Disney's Mandalorian series, bitching about "damned proprietary code" used in imperial droids that makes them hard to reprogram but that's another topic for another message board...)
What really gets my goat about the RMS situation is that he's not neuronormative, the same people lambasting him are the same people who would deride judgement calls that harsh against someone who's on the spectrum, yet somehow he's an acceptable target.
Yes, he's awkward as all hell, and yes, he makes people uncomfortable sometimes and has no social filter, but his contributions are too many to be ignored and his behavior to me seems to be without malice.
This is nothing more than revenge of the non-nerds.
The younger generation of technologists tend to have much better social skills than those of us "olds" who grew up on BBSes and the purple 8086 book. Writing software is now cool, so the newer cadre of developers are the same mental archetype that stuffed us into lockers for not being normal. They just do different things than play football now.
They intend to punish us for the crime of not having been properly socialized by our peers.
RMS failed in his way to communicate with people, he hurt people and there are reports of scared away women. The community failed by not calling him on his mistakes, by not making these publicly clear as early as possible disregarding that he is stubborn but changes his mind when bad stances are explained clearly.
His victims should not be blamed, but people around him have to admit there are reasons he is compared to a spoiled child. This has to stop.
For his importance and the willingness to defend points of view which may be inconvenient for most people, he is needed in a movement which requires such a level of dedication and sacrifice. I don't believe there is anybody else who is capable living the way he lives just to stand on the very strict ethical side. He is very much needed.
Cancel culture should be handled carefully, for punishment should not make people give up on trying to improve. But a group should not silence when bad behavior happens.
If rms is to come back caution must be taken. He must be warned at the smallest mistakes, should not be handled as a never wrong semi-god and be encouraged to know when he hurts people and apologize for that. Otherwise the more people and the free software movement will be hurt.
I support RMS but also believe he should be removed from the board of the FSF a second time.
Let's let him continue to advocate for free software and ensure he is able to support himself, but let's also try not to discourage people from participating because they're in fear of being harrassed or excluded.
I won't sign either letter, but of the two, I think this one is better. Neither has the right conclusion. The other suggests he be banned from the community entirely.
Edit: the other letter has a lot higher caliber of signers. I think there are a lot of influential people in the FLOSS community who haven't signed either though. Perhaps a new letter should be made that is just about removing him from the board of the FSF and from other leadership positions (including the GNU Project).
I realize this is satire, but I’m concerned about the other open letter that this is referring to. How is it not supporting cancel culture? According to it, any transgression, no matter how small, that goes against identity politics is seen as an immediate and everlasting scarlet letter. For heaven sake’s, I don’t even know this guy, and I have very little knowledge of the FSF, but clearly this kind of pitch forking is very dangerous and very counterproductive.
I do love to see people come out with a public statement that says "We believe that a guy who, in public meetings, representing his organization, picks toe cheese from between his toes and consumes it in front of people, is absolutely the right leader for us! We believe that a guy who showers once or twice per year is the best public face for us. Out of all the billions of people on Earth, he's the one!"
Takes guts to make a statement like that. Bravo.
Here's a link about Stallman for the many HN readers who obviously don't know anything about the guy. I urge you to read it before forming your opinion about "cancel culture".
Regardless of the minor controversial views held by RMS, this recent development is a dishonest attack on his person based on false accusations parroted by blatant liars. I don't think such precedents should be given any chance at success.
What's going on with the stained glass/haloe deification of RMS in the profile photo? That alone turns me off from even reading the letter. Its visible in the HN RSS entry and on the main page: https://github.com/rms-support-letter
So we should be shameful for basing conclusions on what non-anecdotal information we've been exposed to?
I've had such encounters with someone many on HN would know. I don't hold anyone accountable for mentioning their name or talking nicely about them because how could they possibly know what happened behind closed doors?
[+] [-] smoldesu|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NelsonMinar|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yongjik|5 years ago|reply
> I hosted rms many years ago in the 90’s, what was supposed to be hosting your hero for a ~3 day thing became a ~2 month nightmare. I joined a small club “never host rms ever again”. To cope with it, I used to collect the horror stories.
> He met a woman on the first evening in town, and extended his stay. One day, I came home from work and she had moved in.
I don't personally know any autistic person, but this doesn't sound like autism. How many autistic person visits a new town, goes into a bar, and brings back a woman to your friend's bedroom, without asking the friend first? This sounds more like a run-of-the-mill asshole.
[+] [-] phasnox|5 years ago|reply
On one hand I'm totally against cancel culture for things like:
- How you voted(e.g. Trump/Biden)
- Your political views on any subject
On the other hand, Stallman has called for the killing of babies with Down Syndrome.
So, could I associate with someone like that?
Could I comfortably work with someone that(for example) calls for the killing of babies if they where jewish, black etc.
[+] [-] majkinetor|5 years ago|reply
- https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
[+] [-] gentleman11|5 years ago|reply
> According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking point,” it turns out the numbers don’t fit that narrative. Turns out just about everyone thinks we need more free speech. This includes large pluralities of all races (e.g. 75% of African Americans, 87% of Hispanics) and all ages (e.g. 79% of Americans under age 24).
> A 2017 poll of 2,300 U.S. adults, found that 71% Americans believe that political correctness has silenced important discussions our society needs to have and 58% of Americans believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their own political beliefs.
Edit: Speaking of, somebody is flagging this story (to be clear, not this comment) to keep people from even discussing the topic. As of writing, they succeeded. We need a “this shouldn’t be flagged” button
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mikece|5 years ago|reply
(I also think he would be fantastic making a cameo in a bit part in Disney's Mandalorian series, bitching about "damned proprietary code" used in imperial droids that makes them hard to reprogram but that's another topic for another message board...)
[+] [-] yabones|5 years ago|reply
* https://stallman.org/notes/2020-jul-oct.html#23_September_20...
* https://www.stallman.org/archives/2021-jan-apr.html#18_Febru...
* https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#4_March_...
[+] [-] gaws|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] phasnox|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kemonocode|5 years ago|reply
Yes, he's awkward as all hell, and yes, he makes people uncomfortable sometimes and has no social filter, but his contributions are too many to be ignored and his behavior to me seems to be without malice.
[+] [-] caeril|5 years ago|reply
The younger generation of technologists tend to have much better social skills than those of us "olds" who grew up on BBSes and the purple 8086 book. Writing software is now cool, so the newer cadre of developers are the same mental archetype that stuffed us into lockers for not being normal. They just do different things than play football now.
They intend to punish us for the crime of not having been properly socialized by our peers.
[+] [-] marcodiego|5 years ago|reply
His victims should not be blamed, but people around him have to admit there are reasons he is compared to a spoiled child. This has to stop.
For his importance and the willingness to defend points of view which may be inconvenient for most people, he is needed in a movement which requires such a level of dedication and sacrifice. I don't believe there is anybody else who is capable living the way he lives just to stand on the very strict ethical side. He is very much needed.
Cancel culture should be handled carefully, for punishment should not make people give up on trying to improve. But a group should not silence when bad behavior happens.
If rms is to come back caution must be taken. He must be warned at the smallest mistakes, should not be handled as a never wrong semi-god and be encouraged to know when he hurts people and apologize for that. Otherwise the more people and the free software movement will be hurt.
[+] [-] DreamScatter|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benatkin|5 years ago|reply
Let's let him continue to advocate for free software and ensure he is able to support himself, but let's also try not to discourage people from participating because they're in fear of being harrassed or excluded.
I won't sign either letter, but of the two, I think this one is better. Neither has the right conclusion. The other suggests he be banned from the community entirely.
Edit: the other letter has a lot higher caliber of signers. I think there are a lot of influential people in the FLOSS community who haven't signed either though. Perhaps a new letter should be made that is just about removing him from the board of the FSF and from other leadership positions (including the GNU Project).
[+] [-] underseacables|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] go561192|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21287006
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20994216
[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26545420
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535789
[5] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr...
. .
Some well-regarded papers on sexism in CS, which are still relevant as is evident from some comments in this thread.
[1] Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists (Ellen Spertus, 1991)
https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/7040
[2] How to Encourage Women in Linux (Val Henson, 2002)
https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/
[3] What Happens to Us Does Not Happen to Most of You (Kathryn S. McKinley, 2018)
https://www.sigarch.org/what-happens-to-us-does-not-happen-t...
[4] Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher, 2001)
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Clubhouse-Women-Computing-P...
[5] The Elephant in the Valley (by Michele Madansky and Trae Vassallo, 2015)
https://www.elephantinthevalley.com/
[+] [-] jellicle|5 years ago|reply
Takes guts to make a statement like that. Bravo.
Here's a link about Stallman for the many HN readers who obviously don't know anything about the guy. I urge you to read it before forming your opinion about "cancel culture".
https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrac...
[+] [-] icha|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icha|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imagineerschool|5 years ago|reply
Taking unprincipled, unreasoned positions is more fashionable.
Which tendency is more productive?
[+] [-] nickthegreek|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jellicle|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smoldesu|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NelsonMinar|5 years ago|reply
I personally know two women who've been sexually harassed by this creep. He has no place in leadership.
[+] [-] junon|5 years ago|reply
I've had such encounters with someone many on HN would know. I don't hold anyone accountable for mentioning their name or talking nicely about them because how could they possibly know what happened behind closed doors?
[+] [-] ajfjrbfbf|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dextralt|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] boucher|5 years ago|reply