This article is nothing more than a chain-mail style bullshit list and it's sad to see it voted up so highly. I suppose it's a nice ego-stroke for all the self described introverts, but most of the "myths" are actually supported by their counter-descriptions.
Small talk is a social skill. and when meeting a new person small talk is generally all you have. This basically affirms the "myth".
They want everyone to just be real and honest. Unfortunately, this is not acceptable in most settings
Talk about a value judgment on non-introverts. Being polite is more important than being pointlessly honest.
If you are lucky enough for an introvert to consider you a friend, you probably have a loyal ally for life.
If only I could find myself a loyal friend who can't make idle talk, will talk for days about things that only interest him and won't want to do much out in public.
They take in data and experiences very quickly, and as a result, don’t need to be there for long to “get it.”
Ah yes, pity those non-introverts that take weeks to figure "it" out.
Introverts are perfectly comfortable with their own thoughts. They think a lot. They daydream. They like to have problems to work on, puzzles to solve.
Introverts are often individualists. They don’t follow the crowd. They’d prefer to be valued for their novel ways of living. They think for themselves and because of that, they often challenge the norm. They don’t make most decisions based on what is popular or trendy.
Non-introverts are mindless slaves to culture and advertising!
it’s just that their inner world is much more stimulating and rewarding to them.
Or said in a way to not flex the ego "Their inner world is comforting and welcoming without challenge from outside stimulus."
* I suppose it's a nice ego-stroke for all the self described introverts*
No it isn't. My friend of 8 years, and also my roomate for 4 years told me Sunday I was being rude because he had his friends over and I retreated to my quarters. People just do not understand introversion, so it is good to just send them a link like this.
I agree with your general point about the chain-mail style bullshit, but it's not just an ego-stroke for self-described introverts: many are value judgments against introverts.
>Myth #7 – Introverts are weird.
Introverts (in my experience) _reject the concept of weird_. Social decisions like who's "in" and who's "out" hold no weight. Until this is understood, you're (by you I mean the writer, not you, parfe) not countering the myth that introverts are weird, you're just explaining the reasons people say that introverts are weird.
>Introverts cannot “fix themselves” and deserve respect for their natural temperament and contributions to the human race.
Again, what is "broken?"
It reads like an extrovert making a poor attempt to explain what he knows of introversion to other extroverts.
My main gripe with this article is: it heavily mixes symptoms of social anxiety, chronic shyness, downright rude behavior and the "typical" traits hacker are said to have... and then calls it "introvert".
The real reasons other people see you as "introvert" can be plentiful so it is actually pretty ignorant to attribute all introverts with those "myths".
Here's a myth held by introverts. Introverts (rightly) believe that extroverts don't understand them, but they don't understand extroverts as well as they think they do. Case in point, the commonly held belief on HN that extroverts mostly BS their way through life while the introverts are doing the real work. In reality we introverts probably don't understand how incredibly nuanced seemingly superficial relationships and conversations can be.
As an introvert, i understand very well how extroverts think. For years i tried to become more extroverted, only to discover at a certain point that it's a dysfunctional path that leads to a superficial, seemingly fullfilling but unfocused and non-goal-directed lives. The nuance of conversation is a charm, it fades fast.
The way I see it is time management: life is short, do you want to spend most of it dealing with people or things? for me it's "things", because they have a higher signal/noise ratio.
I read the book myself recently, and I can highly recommend it if you feel that you sit anywhere on the introvert spectrum.
It covers the "science" behind introversion, how introverts vs. extroverts think and respond to stimuli and neurochemicals. (I put science in quotes as I don't know enough about the brain to know how scientific the discussion is but I found it useful and interesting nonetheless).
It then goes on to look at how this affects introverts' interactions with themselves, others, and in social situations - with some thoughts and guidance on how to better integrate into an "extroverted world" without just trying to be more extroverted.
I have definitely found it helpful and it's made me think a lot about who I am and how I react to life as an introvert.
Myth #3 – Introverts are rude.
Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries. They want everyone to just be real and honest.
Yes, this is often called being rude. It may be true that by this guys definition introverts don't mean to be rude, but if a person (introvert or otherwise) acts as described above, that is rude.
I did a degree in Psychology and one of the advanced topics in personality theory that came up when discussing the Introversion/Extroversion spectrum was the concept of 'Pseudo Introversion' and 'Pseudo Extroversion'
The general crux is that there exist people who are what you might call 'biologically' introverts (or extraverts) but who have made a conscious decision that there is something that they love more than their base trait in the I/E personality dimension.
Examples of pesudo-extroverts might be a very shy actor, singer or performer. Socially they'd be considered an introvert, but they love their craft so much that they pretend to be an extrovert in order to do the thing that they love.
I think it is worthwhile to note that not all introverts are alike. I can tick off some similiarities in this list with myself, but my experience of being an introvert is quite different. ymmv.
The assumption that there's something wrong with not interacting with other people eagerly and often strikes me as oddly egotistical. Other people aren't alive solely for the enjoyment of extraverts.
The "problem," if there is one, is that extraverts are uncomfortable and find it difficult to interact with introverts. But this is as much the fault of extraverted people as it is of introverted people. They speak a different language and need to meet halfway to interact effectively.
Due to the personality type, however, the extraverts see this as a huge problem while the introverts really don't care all that much.
What if we asked the obvious counter-question: Why are extraverts so threatened by anyone who won't interact with them on their terms?
Nobody asks that because extraverts get a pass on this; it's the introvert's fault when social interaction between and extravert and an intravert is uncomfortable.
Myth #10 – Introverts can fix themselves and become Extroverts.
I don't know if "fix" is the right word in the complete, but they can definitely change. I used to follow that list pretty closely - and while there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, I realized that it can be extremely socially disadvantageous. Regardless of how smart someone is, it's an undeniable fact that in this world, almost all the time, you need the support of other people to make your desires come true. I'll cite the academic community on this one: even if you make a great scientific discovery, you'll never get a Nobel prize if all the other academics think you're a jerk.
I really think the primary talent any intelligent person should learn is adaptation - and that includes adapting to your social surroundings. For example: although I played a lot of sports semi-professionally, I have never enjoyed watching sports... especially team sports. Yet, when I go to a hockey game, I make a ton of noise, and force myself to get into the spirit and have a good time, even though I still haven't bothered to learn the rules.
Don't like idle gossip? Well, it's the fastest way to permeate a new group of people. Now I'm an active gossip and drama seeker (although I make sure the gossip is harmless).
In any case, I feel his point needs to be refined a bit.
I agree, it seems to me that "introversion" and "poorly developed social skills and/or low confidence" are often confused with one another.
We all know that there's a big overlap between liking something and being good at it, and similarly between being bad at something and disliking it. I used to hate running, until I got to be good at it, at which point I started liking it. It's the same thing with social interactions -- people who suck at them will dislike them. If your conversations with strangers are full of awkward pauses and struggling to find something to say then no wonder you hate talking to strangers.
But social skills can be improved through practice, so it's not surprising to see some introverts becoming less introverted as they get better at talking to people.
Sorry but I can't take the article seriously. The notion that everybody can simply be divided into either being an "Extrovert" or "Introvert" is very doubtful for me.
Even if you accept this one dimensional personality description as being useful by itself;
- is it constant (the same in all circumstances),
- does it vary over time?
- Is everyone either an "introvert" or an "extrovert" OR do people fit on a sliding scale between the two extremes?
I'm guessing that the author feels he is an introvert. IMO, rather than trying to redefine or clarify what it means to be an "introvert" just don't accept the "introvert/Extrovert" labels. Its a pseudo-scientific term which is used in a lazy way to put people into neat boxes.
I'll bet most people can think of situations where they will act "extroverted" and others where they'll be "introverted".
The words "introvert" and "extrovert" have been used by a lot of people over the years, starting all the way back at Freud I think. If a modern scientist uses these words, though, they're probably talking about it in terms of the Big Five[1] personality model, which is mostly just identifying some observed clusters of traits with strong correlations that tend to persist over a person's life. People argue about whether there might be more emperical clusters worth adding, or whether they might be made more orthogonal but generally there's a good amount of rigor behind them, far more than IQ for instance.
Introversion/Extroversion is very much a matter of degree, just like pretty much any other human trait. It doesn't uniquely determine behavior by any means, humans are very complex creatures. However, there is a pretty strong correlation [2] between someone acting in an introverted or extroverted manner in one situation and acting the same way later.
EDIT: All of which isn't to say that people can't use those terms in pseudo-scientific ways, or that the author of the article isn't. After all, people use terms like 'mass' and 'gravity' in pseudo scientific ways too.
Just somebody (presumably an introvert) denying common negative generalizations about introverts without providing any supporting references or analysis. Turns out (thank you, oblique63) it was an off-the-cuff list thought up by someone who read a self-help book and was inspired to "redefine [his] entire life in a new and positive context."
Seeing introversion as a preference or identity is fine as long as you have a nice consistently introverted life and that's exactly what you want, but it harks back to the day when everybody had their place and accepted their limitations and anyone who felt any conflict or frustration about it was "maladjusted." If you're introverted and want some of the benefits of extroversion, such as a bigger social network for locating jobs and meeting women, or if you discover that you really enjoy a hobby that has a large incidental but unavoidable social component, then you're supposed to realize those things are "just not you" and go home and read a book.
Introversion as an identity is a nice explanation when you really don't want to do something. "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an introvert...." But what explanation do you give yourself when you really want to go see a certain band but you think the social aspect will drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy? There's no simple "I like this" or "I don't like this." There's a conflict that can't be resolved. What do you do when you realize it's nice to have a big diverse circle of friends sometimes -- for trying to round people up for certain activities, or so you aren't limited to the tastes of your one or two really close friends -- but maintaining that social network is intimidating and draining and you don't know if you're up to it? Introversion starts to seem less like a matter of taste and more like a limitation you're fighting against.
It's nice to say you're a picky person who doesn't like superficial relationships, who only wants a handful of close friends you can engage with in a meaningful way, but then you plan a backpacking trip and realize there's some climbing involved and it isn't safe to go alone. You could limit yourself to whatever your friends like to do. But the trip sounds really cool, and now that you think about it, you're pretty sure you'd enjoy rock climbing in itself. Wait, there's a problem. Learning basic rock climbing doesn't intimidate you, but you will have to meet people who like climbing, meet enough of them and cultivate enough social connections to put together three or four people to do this hike. What would sound fun to an extrovert -- meet a bunch of new people who share my interests, yay! -- poses a tough decision for the introvert. Do I really want to do this? Will it be worth it? Am I even capable of doing it? It will involve a lot of social interaction, and I don't know if I can muster enough smalltalk and conviviality or if I'll get tired, zone out, fail to engage and be engaging.
That brings up another matter of "taste." It would be nice to say I'm simply bored by smalltalk, but I can't kid myself; it isn't that simple. I know that once in a while I do like smalltalk, and when I think about it my ability to enjoy a social situation has more to do with my mood going into it than the situation itself. I get bored when I'm not engaged, and I have difficulty engaging with people because anxiety and stress make me shut down. When I'm overflowing with positive feelings, I have no problem engaging with people and enjoying smalltalk. So the problem isn't smalltalk, unless I want to say that I'm stupid to enjoy it when I do, and right to be bored when it bores me.
I could resolve all these problems by having a consistent life and molding my tastes to coincide with my comfort zone. I could just happen to prefer hobbies that shelter me from social situations or bring me together with other introverts instead of forcing me into uncomfortable situations. It's great when it works out that way, and it's certainly a major factor in how I manage to enjoy life! But I chafe against it. I'm maladjusted. I don't like tailoring my life to my natural limitations any more than I like tailoring my life to other people's expectations. My introversion messes with me, so I mess with it right back. Sometimes, when I can afford the energy.
You are seriously conflating "social anxiety disorder" and "introversion." The idea that a concert would "drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy" or that an introvert would have a tough time interacting with a group long enough to go on a rock climbing trip is essentially saying that an introverted person is somehow handicapped, or pushed to their introversion by a type of mental disorder.
I identify as an introvert. I like thinking about mind, experience, truth, math, language, etc. I don't have a social anxiety disorder or any other type of anxiety disorder, so I'm not afraid to join a rock climbing group or any other type of group. I go dancing. I make small talk. These things can be introverted activities, if you make them.
My M.O. with respect to social situations seems to be "create comfort zone -> expand comfort zone." Since I'm an introvert, I tend to bring people into my world rather than go into theirs.
That being said, I vastly prefer spending time with one person whom I really like to a bunch of people who I vaguely like. I also hate carnivals.
"What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj
concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an
introvert...."
I'm an introvert as some people classify them and I certainly wouldn't say that. I'm far more likely to say something along the lines of: "I'm pretty tired right now and just want to get some rest. Maybe next time. Thanks for asking though."
It's not that I don't like going to concerts. It's really more about whether I feel up to it or not. Most of the time I do since I have plenty of time to recharge during my regular schedule.
I know that once in a while I do like smalltalk, and
when I think about it my ability to enjoy a social
situation has more to do with my mood going into it than
the situation itself. I get bored when I'm not engaged,
and I have difficulty engaging with people because
anxiety and stress make me shut down.
My wife who is quite a bit different in this matter than me is cheered up by a social event when she's feeling down. I on the other hand feel worse after a social event when I'm feeling down.
If you're introverted and want some of the benefits of
extroversion, such as a bigger social network for
locating jobs and meeting women, or if you discover that
you really enjoy a hobby that has a large incidental but
unavoidable social component, then you're supposed to
realize those things are "just not you" and go home and
read a book.
I have no idea where you got this idea from. I don't know any introverts who think like this. They simply do what they want to do and pay whatever price they want to pay. Maybe they need some extra down time later because they went to a week long event with lots of people. Most of them are just fine with that.
Someone can be an introvert without being maladjusted or having an anxiety disorder.
Ok, so I upvoted you, but maaan do you have it wrong.
I am the definition of introversion (to myself, avoid crowds, do not need to chat with everyone at the party, content with silence that others think is awkward, definitely do not want to ever be the center of attention, like to be alone with my thoughts ...)
"What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an introvert...."
I have been to concerts by myself just because my friends do not like Coldplay, or would not pay a hundred to watch Jay Z, or just wanted to be out of the house. Guess what? I always had a blast.
I have been to the movies alone. My ex girlfriend used to hate me for this one. So now I do not tell anyone I date when I need a freaking night alone at the theather. It's my dirty little secret.
I go clubbing mostly by myself because my friends like to go to places I do not like. On top of that I am shy, but boy do I talk to girls. "It takes one man to talk to girls", you do not need a wingman to talk to girls. You only need a nice smile, and attitude.
I do not like hiking, true, but I do take shorts trips in remote places where it would be advisable to have someone with you. I prefer to do this alone. Danger or not.
I do not like smalltalk, because it is just that smalltalk, but I understand society deals with me as I am so I make an effort to deal with society as it is, hence I do the smalltalk in order to find something that may appeal. You almost always find it within a minute.
Of course there are trade-offs to being introverted: No backpacking trip, but also no needing to be around people you don't care about.
You can also say that the preference of introversion is inconvenient - the fact that you don't like hanging out with these semi-arbitrary people "prevents" you from having fun. To take that to the extreme, it would be pretty convenient to always be unconditionally happy.
For example, for the same question "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?"
An introverted response might be "Hey I really like that kind of music - I just don't want to go with a bunch of people I don't know that well, having to coordinate rides, having idle chit chat, etc. So I'll probably go on my own, and if I run into you guys, that's great. But if I don't run into you guys, hope you have a good time there."
In no way does being introverted mean "staying at home and read a book" or not enjoying life, etc.
And the rock climbing example, why couldn't you rock climb on your own? That seems like a stupid question, but my first instinct as an introvert would just be to go tackle a big cliff on my own - cause I don't really want to meet a bunch of macho folks that I don't know - you know, people do climb K2 on their own, even though it's dangerous, it makes the accomplishment even more intense.
I've done 60 km-100km bike rides in the dark, in the middle of the night, on my own - just so I don't have to talk to people - so I kinda know what it feels like.
Why do we need this silly choice between being an 'introvert' and being an 'extrovert' and some fifty-cent words to hang around our necks with some attached activities we're supposed to like or dislike? I joke about how awesome it is to be "ENTP", but I don't really take that shit seriously.
This whole "*-trovert" obsession drives people away from understanding conversation because they try to categorize it solely as 'necessary' and 'unnecessary'. What sort of life is it when things are solely necessary or unnecessary?
I love his myth #3 response. "Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries" reduces to "Introverts are rude."
Personally I don't think the average introvert is rude. I think that not because I redefine what "rude" means, but simply because on average introverts are polite people just like extroverts. Sure, there are socially maladjusted introverts who think that communicative efficiency scales with bluntness. (Hint: making someone feel insulted or defensive is likely to slow you down a lot more than the taking the effort to word criticism cautiously.) Just like there are extroverts that think it's ok to shout someone down or make fun of them until the acquiesce to whatever the extrovert wants. But I don't know that rudeness is more common in either of intro- or extroverts.
I feel compelled to share my current process of understanding and dealing with my own introversion. Maybe this will resonate with others, maybe not. Where I am right now, it's more important for me to be able to share this than anything else.
I ended a relationship recently, partly because we had huge communication issues. Her thoughts were always close to the surface, I tended to think about things for hours before finding the courage or words to express ideas that were important to me. When I finally managed to say out loud what I'd been mulling over, she didn't always take me very seriously or even let me finish my thought before jumping in with hers. This of course made it even harder to open up to her again. I tried earnestly to explain to her that I needed quiet time daily to process my thoughts and that interruptions were lethal to my ability to communicate. In the end she never seemed to accept that this was a fundamental part of my personality and not some excuse I was giving her. Often she would make sarcastic comments like "Have you had enough quiet time today?" These relatively innocuous comments hurt me more than most of our arguments, simply because it communicated to me that she truly didn't understand me or what I needed to be happy. Maybe we could have established that communication, but the relationship had gone on too long for that kind of refactoring.
After the relationship ended, I suddenly had ten times the social energy. I thought I was burnt out of performing comedy, but suddenly had more then enough energy. I took the time to study social skills and took a hard look at my life and my emotional state. It became clear to me that being introverted had closed me off to not only her, but to all my friends and even family. I realized that my closest friends actually made me LESS social, simply because of the attitudes they held towards meeting new people and society in general.
So I started cutting them out of my life. I began a new effort of being more social. I limited my "deep thought introverted" time to when I was actually alone. When I was socializing, I made sure that I extroverted the entire time. If I felt the urge to check my phone or zone out of the conversation, I recognized that my energy had run out, excused myself and left. I made new friends who viewed me as a social, outgoing person. Their expectations of me helped my momentum. I forced myself to be open with people. I ignored my tendency to withhold personal information, embarrassing stories, or questions that might make me look stupid. I started bantering more with coworkers that I hadn't been close to before. I started reinforcing the believe that I shouldn't feel the need to hide anything about myself.
I was a little confused by the new amounts of social energy I had. My girlfriend had taken up a lot of my time, but after our breakup, I was able to maintain a schedule with at least twice the social hours as previously. Where was I getting all this energy? I realized that what was draining me wasn't being social, it was being uncomfortable. It was the awkward situations, not social situations in general, that were sapping my energy. I couldn't tell the difference because I was in a situation where 90% of my social interactions were uncomfortable for one reason or another. In my relationship, I was constantly worried about giving her the time she wanted to spend with me while giving my time to process my thoughts and work on projects. In general, I was always trying to follow a train of thought in my head, even when out with friends, or in a meeting, or in a friendly conversation, instead of being present and happy to interact with someone else.
The biggest benefit to this change in my life has been the increased sensitivity to my own emotional state, including how much control I had over my own happiness at any given time by means of my own posture, facial expression and state of mind. I realized that just wearing a stupid grin on my face made my happier than any of my academic or professional accomplishments. It was as if my introversion had muted me to my own emotional state. I began to recognize that humans are essentially emotional antennas. Evolution has conditioned us to subcommunicate volumes of information to each other. The emotional state of a person is broadcast and received by everyone around them. Extroverts are much more sensitive to this than introverts. Suddenly I realized why smalltalk, politeness, and so many other things I had never given much value were so important. Other people felt the effects of these things a hundred times more than I had. And they couldn't help it anymore than I could help being introverted.
The reverse of this is also true, by learning to recognize this, I began to pick up much more how other people were feeling. Connecting with people and making them happy begin to give me as much satisfaction as I've ever had from programming or making something work. I'm beginning to reconsider whether technical work is good for my emotional state, or if I am even cut out to be happy while doing it.
Am I truly an introvert? Yes, I still believe I am pretty strongly introverted by nature. Do I think all introverts are closed off? No. I think most introverts, even those more introverted than me, are more successful than I was at maintaining at least a few close friendships. I do believe that learning how to be comfortable in ones own skin is critical to being a happy person. I certainly didn't give this problem nearly as much attention as I should have. If you take anything away from this, I hope that you will consider if you should be giving it more attention in your life as well.
Patronizing comments like "Have you had enough quiet time today?" are anything but innocuous. That would be a huge red flag for me that the relationship is unhealthy. There's no reason to tolerate such overt disrespect.
I think being an introvert is almost a requirement for being an effective programmer. I don't mean to sound like an arrogant asshole by making such a statement. To really be at the top of your game you have to be constantly reading about the latest trends and technologies, working on personal projects, concentrating in a monolithic fashion on the task in front of you. Programming is an antisocial/introverted activity by definition.
That said, there are many different styles of programmer and developer, and there are indeed some types which require lots of regular social interaction. I guess for me there has always been a feeling that programming alienates those who have a deep understanding of the subject from those who don't. I think this is because of the unique mindset required to understand how a computer really works at the low level. As a programmer I can break situations and problems down to variables, data types, logical expressions and conditions. Non-programmers are probably perfectly capable of solving the same problem, but as programmers we often approach such problems in a very specific way.
I would definitely count myself an an introvert, prettymuch exactly as described by the article. Social situations feel awkward and draining, while I am most comfortable in a peaceful and solitary environment. Despite this I still long for meaningful social connections with other people, I just struggle to relate to other people whose interests differ so greatly from my own.
Great description, thanks for sharing. I too am very introverted by nature, although these days people are shocked to discover it: I'm frequently acting like an extrovert, and usually enjoying it! But it's learned behavior ...
And it's a great point about how your friends' attitudes were unexpectedly contributing to your lack of energy for socialization. Over the last several years I've made it a point to spend most of my time with the friends who help me stay in the right frame of mine, instead of the ones who [unintentionally] infect me with their own negativity about new situations. And I find I'm much happier as a result!
"Where was I getting all this energy? I realized that what was draining me wasn't being social, it was being uncomfortable. It was the awkward situations, not social situations in general, that were sapping my energy."
Prior to that quote, you mention studying social skills. You also mention cutting old friends out of your life. Which path had a more drastic affect on you? Was it learning new social skills that made you realize you needed different friends, or did the desire for new friends force you to learn new social skills.
Instead of the "War Between the 'Verts", it would be useful to hear some comments about successfully interfacing with the other type. Seems to me the two types complement each other well in business as long as there is mutual respect.
I consider myself pretty introverted but I'm also pretty conflict-averse, which means that myth #3 doesn't apply at all, at least to me -- if anything, I tend to be overly polite with people. And I know lots of introverts who are the same way.
The introvert-extrovert axis is a great tool for understanding behavior, but don't just assume that every angle of your personality arises from where you are on that spectrum.
I would describe myself the same way. However sometimes I find myself in conversations where I might for example not respond to something someone says, and rather just reflect on it in my own mind as I don't really have anything meaningful to add. This makes perfect sense in my head where two different "conversations", internal and external are going on, but I realize that in real life it's pretty awkward.
Why is this being dressed up as introvertedness v. extrovertedness?
Introvertedness and extrovertedness are different directions on a scale, not absolute points. Introvertedness covers a far milder set of characteristics than those described here.
What the author describes is an extremity of the spectrum and characteristics more usually associated with Asberger or High functioning Autism.
My first job out of collage was with a Big 6 accounting firm as a IT consultant. As part of training, we took the Myers-Briggs test (which places you on the Introvert/Extravert spectrum) and spent an entire day discussing the results. The message of the day was any of the different personality types can thrive and people should be aware of other's personality styles and taylor their interactions given what they know about themselves and what they know about the people they are interacting with. This was/is an important lesson and has been helpful in my career.
They ended the day with a set of two slides that broke down the population of the firm as a whole and the population of the partners in the firm. 80% of the firm were extraverts and >95% of the partners where extraverts. So the other lesson I learned that day, was that if you want to be in a sales-y leadership position, you better learn to behave like an extravert.
[+] [-] parfe|15 years ago|reply
The Original Source appears to be: http://www.carlkingcreative.com/10-myths-about-introverts
They hate small talk.
Small talk is a social skill. and when meeting a new person small talk is generally all you have. This basically affirms the "myth".
They want everyone to just be real and honest. Unfortunately, this is not acceptable in most settings
Talk about a value judgment on non-introverts. Being polite is more important than being pointlessly honest.
If you are lucky enough for an introvert to consider you a friend, you probably have a loyal ally for life.
If only I could find myself a loyal friend who can't make idle talk, will talk for days about things that only interest him and won't want to do much out in public.
They take in data and experiences very quickly, and as a result, don’t need to be there for long to “get it.”
Ah yes, pity those non-introverts that take weeks to figure "it" out.
Introverts are perfectly comfortable with their own thoughts. They think a lot. They daydream. They like to have problems to work on, puzzles to solve.
Introverts are often individualists. They don’t follow the crowd. They’d prefer to be valued for their novel ways of living. They think for themselves and because of that, they often challenge the norm. They don’t make most decisions based on what is popular or trendy.
Non-introverts are mindless slaves to culture and advertising!
it’s just that their inner world is much more stimulating and rewarding to them.
Or said in a way to not flex the ego "Their inner world is comforting and welcoming without challenge from outside stimulus."
[+] [-] rokhayakebe|15 years ago|reply
No it isn't. My friend of 8 years, and also my roomate for 4 years told me Sunday I was being rude because he had his friends over and I retreated to my quarters. People just do not understand introversion, so it is good to just send them a link like this.
[+] [-] falcolas|15 years ago|reply
Even if it is a "chain-mail style bullshit list", your condescending retorts don't give your point of view much credit.
[+] [-] true_religion|15 years ago|reply
For example, the opposite of individualistic is communalistic---not "mindless slave to culture and advertising".
[+] [-] Helianthus|15 years ago|reply
>Myth #7 – Introverts are weird.
Introverts (in my experience) _reject the concept of weird_. Social decisions like who's "in" and who's "out" hold no weight. Until this is understood, you're (by you I mean the writer, not you, parfe) not countering the myth that introverts are weird, you're just explaining the reasons people say that introverts are weird.
>Introverts cannot “fix themselves” and deserve respect for their natural temperament and contributions to the human race.
Again, what is "broken?"
It reads like an extrovert making a poor attempt to explain what he knows of introversion to other extroverts.
[+] [-] kahawe|15 years ago|reply
The real reasons other people see you as "introvert" can be plentiful so it is actually pretty ignorant to attribute all introverts with those "myths".
[+] [-] jhamburger|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ignifero|15 years ago|reply
The way I see it is time management: life is short, do you want to spend most of it dealing with people or things? for me it's "things", because they have a higher signal/noise ratio.
[+] [-] latentflip|15 years ago|reply
I read the book myself recently, and I can highly recommend it if you feel that you sit anywhere on the introvert spectrum.
It covers the "science" behind introversion, how introverts vs. extroverts think and respond to stimuli and neurochemicals. (I put science in quotes as I don't know enough about the brain to know how scientific the discussion is but I found it useful and interesting nonetheless).
It then goes on to look at how this affects introverts' interactions with themselves, others, and in social situations - with some thoughts and guidance on how to better integrate into an "extroverted world" without just trying to be more extroverted.
I have definitely found it helpful and it's made me think a lot about who I am and how I react to life as an introvert.
[+] [-] tcskeptic|15 years ago|reply
Yes, this is often called being rude. It may be true that by this guys definition introverts don't mean to be rude, but if a person (introvert or otherwise) acts as described above, that is rude.
[+] [-] AlexC04|15 years ago|reply
The general crux is that there exist people who are what you might call 'biologically' introverts (or extraverts) but who have made a conscious decision that there is something that they love more than their base trait in the I/E personality dimension.
Examples of pesudo-extroverts might be a very shy actor, singer or performer. Socially they'd be considered an introvert, but they love their craft so much that they pretend to be an extrovert in order to do the thing that they love.
I thought it was pretty interesting.
(More reading: http://carletonnow.carleton.ca/february-2004/personalities-a...)
And more, this is a good one too: http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/introversion-unbound.html
[+] [-] agentultra|15 years ago|reply
I think it is worthwhile to note that not all introverts are alike. I can tick off some similiarities in this list with myself, but my experience of being an introvert is quite different. ymmv.
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] drblast|15 years ago|reply
The "problem," if there is one, is that extraverts are uncomfortable and find it difficult to interact with introverts. But this is as much the fault of extraverted people as it is of introverted people. They speak a different language and need to meet halfway to interact effectively.
Due to the personality type, however, the extraverts see this as a huge problem while the introverts really don't care all that much.
What if we asked the obvious counter-question: Why are extraverts so threatened by anyone who won't interact with them on their terms?
Nobody asks that because extraverts get a pass on this; it's the introvert's fault when social interaction between and extravert and an intravert is uncomfortable.
I can see why that would happen but it's odd.
[+] [-] Shenglong|15 years ago|reply
I don't know if "fix" is the right word in the complete, but they can definitely change. I used to follow that list pretty closely - and while there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, I realized that it can be extremely socially disadvantageous. Regardless of how smart someone is, it's an undeniable fact that in this world, almost all the time, you need the support of other people to make your desires come true. I'll cite the academic community on this one: even if you make a great scientific discovery, you'll never get a Nobel prize if all the other academics think you're a jerk.
I really think the primary talent any intelligent person should learn is adaptation - and that includes adapting to your social surroundings. For example: although I played a lot of sports semi-professionally, I have never enjoyed watching sports... especially team sports. Yet, when I go to a hockey game, I make a ton of noise, and force myself to get into the spirit and have a good time, even though I still haven't bothered to learn the rules.
Don't like idle gossip? Well, it's the fastest way to permeate a new group of people. Now I'm an active gossip and drama seeker (although I make sure the gossip is harmless).
In any case, I feel his point needs to be refined a bit.
[+] [-] hugh3|15 years ago|reply
We all know that there's a big overlap between liking something and being good at it, and similarly between being bad at something and disliking it. I used to hate running, until I got to be good at it, at which point I started liking it. It's the same thing with social interactions -- people who suck at them will dislike them. If your conversations with strangers are full of awkward pauses and struggling to find something to say then no wonder you hate talking to strangers.
But social skills can be improved through practice, so it's not surprising to see some introverts becoming less introverted as they get better at talking to people.
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] MetaMan|15 years ago|reply
Even if you accept this one dimensional personality description as being useful by itself;
- is it constant (the same in all circumstances),
- does it vary over time?
- Is everyone either an "introvert" or an "extrovert" OR do people fit on a sliding scale between the two extremes?
I'm guessing that the author feels he is an introvert. IMO, rather than trying to redefine or clarify what it means to be an "introvert" just don't accept the "introvert/Extrovert" labels. Its a pseudo-scientific term which is used in a lazy way to put people into neat boxes.
I'll bet most people can think of situations where they will act "extroverted" and others where they'll be "introverted".
We are neither a number or a label!
[+] [-] Symmetry|15 years ago|reply
Introversion/Extroversion is very much a matter of degree, just like pretty much any other human trait. It doesn't uniquely determine behavior by any means, humans are very complex creatures. However, there is a pretty strong correlation [2] between someone acting in an introverted or extroverted manner in one situation and acting the same way later.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation
EDIT: All of which isn't to say that people can't use those terms in pseudo-scientific ways, or that the author of the article isn't. After all, people use terms like 'mass' and 'gravity' in pseudo scientific ways too.
[+] [-] dkarl|15 years ago|reply
Seeing introversion as a preference or identity is fine as long as you have a nice consistently introverted life and that's exactly what you want, but it harks back to the day when everybody had their place and accepted their limitations and anyone who felt any conflict or frustration about it was "maladjusted." If you're introverted and want some of the benefits of extroversion, such as a bigger social network for locating jobs and meeting women, or if you discover that you really enjoy a hobby that has a large incidental but unavoidable social component, then you're supposed to realize those things are "just not you" and go home and read a book.
Introversion as an identity is a nice explanation when you really don't want to do something. "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an introvert...." But what explanation do you give yourself when you really want to go see a certain band but you think the social aspect will drain you so much it will be hard to enjoy? There's no simple "I like this" or "I don't like this." There's a conflict that can't be resolved. What do you do when you realize it's nice to have a big diverse circle of friends sometimes -- for trying to round people up for certain activities, or so you aren't limited to the tastes of your one or two really close friends -- but maintaining that social network is intimidating and draining and you don't know if you're up to it? Introversion starts to seem less like a matter of taste and more like a limitation you're fighting against.
It's nice to say you're a picky person who doesn't like superficial relationships, who only wants a handful of close friends you can engage with in a meaningful way, but then you plan a backpacking trip and realize there's some climbing involved and it isn't safe to go alone. You could limit yourself to whatever your friends like to do. But the trip sounds really cool, and now that you think about it, you're pretty sure you'd enjoy rock climbing in itself. Wait, there's a problem. Learning basic rock climbing doesn't intimidate you, but you will have to meet people who like climbing, meet enough of them and cultivate enough social connections to put together three or four people to do this hike. What would sound fun to an extrovert -- meet a bunch of new people who share my interests, yay! -- poses a tough decision for the introvert. Do I really want to do this? Will it be worth it? Am I even capable of doing it? It will involve a lot of social interaction, and I don't know if I can muster enough smalltalk and conviviality or if I'll get tired, zone out, fail to engage and be engaging.
That brings up another matter of "taste." It would be nice to say I'm simply bored by smalltalk, but I can't kid myself; it isn't that simple. I know that once in a while I do like smalltalk, and when I think about it my ability to enjoy a social situation has more to do with my mood going into it than the situation itself. I get bored when I'm not engaged, and I have difficulty engaging with people because anxiety and stress make me shut down. When I'm overflowing with positive feelings, I have no problem engaging with people and enjoying smalltalk. So the problem isn't smalltalk, unless I want to say that I'm stupid to enjoy it when I do, and right to be bored when it bores me.
I could resolve all these problems by having a consistent life and molding my tastes to coincide with my comfort zone. I could just happen to prefer hobbies that shelter me from social situations or bring me together with other introverts instead of forcing me into uncomfortable situations. It's great when it works out that way, and it's certainly a major factor in how I manage to enjoy life! But I chafe against it. I'm maladjusted. I don't like tailoring my life to my natural limitations any more than I like tailoring my life to other people's expectations. My introversion messes with me, so I mess with it right back. Sometimes, when I can afford the energy.
[+] [-] yelsgib|15 years ago|reply
I identify as an introvert. I like thinking about mind, experience, truth, math, language, etc. I don't have a social anxiety disorder or any other type of anxiety disorder, so I'm not afraid to join a rock climbing group or any other type of group. I go dancing. I make small talk. These things can be introverted activities, if you make them.
My M.O. with respect to social situations seems to be "create comfort zone -> expand comfort zone." Since I'm an introvert, I tend to bring people into my world rather than go into theirs.
That being said, I vastly prefer spending time with one person whom I really like to a bunch of people who I vaguely like. I also hate carnivals.
[+] [-] zaphar|15 years ago|reply
It's not that I don't like going to concerts. It's really more about whether I feel up to it or not. Most of the time I do since I have plenty of time to recharge during my regular schedule.
My wife who is quite a bit different in this matter than me is cheered up by a social event when she's feeling down. I on the other hand feel worse after a social event when I'm feeling down. I have no idea where you got this idea from. I don't know any introverts who think like this. They simply do what they want to do and pay whatever price they want to pay. Maybe they need some extra down time later because they went to a week long event with lots of people. Most of them are just fine with that.Someone can be an introvert without being maladjusted or having an anxiety disorder.
[+] [-] rokhayakebe|15 years ago|reply
I am the definition of introversion (to myself, avoid crowds, do not need to chat with everyone at the party, content with silence that others think is awkward, definitely do not want to ever be the center of attention, like to be alone with my thoughts ...)
"What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?" "Let me explain. You see, I'm an introvert...."
I have been to concerts by myself just because my friends do not like Coldplay, or would not pay a hundred to watch Jay Z, or just wanted to be out of the house. Guess what? I always had a blast.
I have been to the movies alone. My ex girlfriend used to hate me for this one. So now I do not tell anyone I date when I need a freaking night alone at the theather. It's my dirty little secret.
I go clubbing mostly by myself because my friends like to go to places I do not like. On top of that I am shy, but boy do I talk to girls. "It takes one man to talk to girls", you do not need a wingman to talk to girls. You only need a nice smile, and attitude.
I do not like hiking, true, but I do take shorts trips in remote places where it would be advisable to have someone with you. I prefer to do this alone. Danger or not.
I do not like smalltalk, because it is just that smalltalk, but I understand society deals with me as I am so I make an effort to deal with society as it is, hence I do the smalltalk in order to find something that may appeal. You almost always find it within a minute.
EDIT: Introvert does not mean antisocial.
[+] [-] jnhnum1|15 years ago|reply
You can also say that the preference of introversion is inconvenient - the fact that you don't like hanging out with these semi-arbitrary people "prevents" you from having fun. To take that to the extreme, it would be pretty convenient to always be unconditionally happy.
[+] [-] barkingcat|15 years ago|reply
For example, for the same question "What, you don't want to go to the Nicki Minaj concert?"
An introverted response might be "Hey I really like that kind of music - I just don't want to go with a bunch of people I don't know that well, having to coordinate rides, having idle chit chat, etc. So I'll probably go on my own, and if I run into you guys, that's great. But if I don't run into you guys, hope you have a good time there."
In no way does being introverted mean "staying at home and read a book" or not enjoying life, etc.
And the rock climbing example, why couldn't you rock climb on your own? That seems like a stupid question, but my first instinct as an introvert would just be to go tackle a big cliff on my own - cause I don't really want to meet a bunch of macho folks that I don't know - you know, people do climb K2 on their own, even though it's dangerous, it makes the accomplishment even more intense.
I've done 60 km-100km bike rides in the dark, in the middle of the night, on my own - just so I don't have to talk to people - so I kinda know what it feels like.
[+] [-] Apocryphon|15 years ago|reply
He's just saying that some people may be introverts, with a certain type of personality, and that's it. There's nothing wrong with being a type.
[+] [-] munificent|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Goladus|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scythe|15 years ago|reply
This whole "*-trovert" obsession drives people away from understanding conversation because they try to categorize it solely as 'necessary' and 'unnecessary'. What sort of life is it when things are solely necessary or unnecessary?
[+] [-] jamesaguilar|15 years ago|reply
Personally I don't think the average introvert is rude. I think that not because I redefine what "rude" means, but simply because on average introverts are polite people just like extroverts. Sure, there are socially maladjusted introverts who think that communicative efficiency scales with bluntness. (Hint: making someone feel insulted or defensive is likely to slow you down a lot more than the taking the effort to word criticism cautiously.) Just like there are extroverts that think it's ok to shout someone down or make fun of them until the acquiesce to whatever the extrovert wants. But I don't know that rudeness is more common in either of intro- or extroverts.
[+] [-] Benjo|15 years ago|reply
I ended a relationship recently, partly because we had huge communication issues. Her thoughts were always close to the surface, I tended to think about things for hours before finding the courage or words to express ideas that were important to me. When I finally managed to say out loud what I'd been mulling over, she didn't always take me very seriously or even let me finish my thought before jumping in with hers. This of course made it even harder to open up to her again. I tried earnestly to explain to her that I needed quiet time daily to process my thoughts and that interruptions were lethal to my ability to communicate. In the end she never seemed to accept that this was a fundamental part of my personality and not some excuse I was giving her. Often she would make sarcastic comments like "Have you had enough quiet time today?" These relatively innocuous comments hurt me more than most of our arguments, simply because it communicated to me that she truly didn't understand me or what I needed to be happy. Maybe we could have established that communication, but the relationship had gone on too long for that kind of refactoring.
After the relationship ended, I suddenly had ten times the social energy. I thought I was burnt out of performing comedy, but suddenly had more then enough energy. I took the time to study social skills and took a hard look at my life and my emotional state. It became clear to me that being introverted had closed me off to not only her, but to all my friends and even family. I realized that my closest friends actually made me LESS social, simply because of the attitudes they held towards meeting new people and society in general.
So I started cutting them out of my life. I began a new effort of being more social. I limited my "deep thought introverted" time to when I was actually alone. When I was socializing, I made sure that I extroverted the entire time. If I felt the urge to check my phone or zone out of the conversation, I recognized that my energy had run out, excused myself and left. I made new friends who viewed me as a social, outgoing person. Their expectations of me helped my momentum. I forced myself to be open with people. I ignored my tendency to withhold personal information, embarrassing stories, or questions that might make me look stupid. I started bantering more with coworkers that I hadn't been close to before. I started reinforcing the believe that I shouldn't feel the need to hide anything about myself.
I was a little confused by the new amounts of social energy I had. My girlfriend had taken up a lot of my time, but after our breakup, I was able to maintain a schedule with at least twice the social hours as previously. Where was I getting all this energy? I realized that what was draining me wasn't being social, it was being uncomfortable. It was the awkward situations, not social situations in general, that were sapping my energy. I couldn't tell the difference because I was in a situation where 90% of my social interactions were uncomfortable for one reason or another. In my relationship, I was constantly worried about giving her the time she wanted to spend with me while giving my time to process my thoughts and work on projects. In general, I was always trying to follow a train of thought in my head, even when out with friends, or in a meeting, or in a friendly conversation, instead of being present and happy to interact with someone else.
The biggest benefit to this change in my life has been the increased sensitivity to my own emotional state, including how much control I had over my own happiness at any given time by means of my own posture, facial expression and state of mind. I realized that just wearing a stupid grin on my face made my happier than any of my academic or professional accomplishments. It was as if my introversion had muted me to my own emotional state. I began to recognize that humans are essentially emotional antennas. Evolution has conditioned us to subcommunicate volumes of information to each other. The emotional state of a person is broadcast and received by everyone around them. Extroverts are much more sensitive to this than introverts. Suddenly I realized why smalltalk, politeness, and so many other things I had never given much value were so important. Other people felt the effects of these things a hundred times more than I had. And they couldn't help it anymore than I could help being introverted.
The reverse of this is also true, by learning to recognize this, I began to pick up much more how other people were feeling. Connecting with people and making them happy begin to give me as much satisfaction as I've ever had from programming or making something work. I'm beginning to reconsider whether technical work is good for my emotional state, or if I am even cut out to be happy while doing it.
Am I truly an introvert? Yes, I still believe I am pretty strongly introverted by nature. Do I think all introverts are closed off? No. I think most introverts, even those more introverted than me, are more successful than I was at maintaining at least a few close friendships. I do believe that learning how to be comfortable in ones own skin is critical to being a happy person. I certainly didn't give this problem nearly as much attention as I should have. If you take anything away from this, I hope that you will consider if you should be giving it more attention in your life as well.
[+] [-] Psyonic|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] genbattle|15 years ago|reply
That said, there are many different styles of programmer and developer, and there are indeed some types which require lots of regular social interaction. I guess for me there has always been a feeling that programming alienates those who have a deep understanding of the subject from those who don't. I think this is because of the unique mindset required to understand how a computer really works at the low level. As a programmer I can break situations and problems down to variables, data types, logical expressions and conditions. Non-programmers are probably perfectly capable of solving the same problem, but as programmers we often approach such problems in a very specific way.
I would definitely count myself an an introvert, prettymuch exactly as described by the article. Social situations feel awkward and draining, while I am most comfortable in a peaceful and solitary environment. Despite this I still long for meaningful social connections with other people, I just struggle to relate to other people whose interests differ so greatly from my own.
[+] [-] jdp23|15 years ago|reply
And it's a great point about how your friends' attitudes were unexpectedly contributing to your lack of energy for socialization. Over the last several years I've made it a point to spend most of my time with the friends who help me stay in the right frame of mine, instead of the ones who [unintentionally] infect me with their own negativity about new situations. And I find I'm much happier as a result!
[+] [-] jhaddon|15 years ago|reply
Prior to that quote, you mention studying social skills. You also mention cutting old friends out of your life. Which path had a more drastic affect on you? Was it learning new social skills that made you realize you needed different friends, or did the desire for new friends force you to learn new social skills.
How did you go about learning these new skills?
[+] [-] oblique63|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tybris|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] T_S_|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfruh|15 years ago|reply
The introvert-extrovert axis is a great tool for understanding behavior, but don't just assume that every angle of your personality arises from where you are on that spectrum.
[+] [-] jhamburger|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmurdock|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] petenixey|15 years ago|reply
Introvertedness and extrovertedness are different directions on a scale, not absolute points. Introvertedness covers a far milder set of characteristics than those described here.
What the author describes is an extremity of the spectrum and characteristics more usually associated with Asberger or High functioning Autism.
[+] [-] amosson|15 years ago|reply
My first job out of collage was with a Big 6 accounting firm as a IT consultant. As part of training, we took the Myers-Briggs test (which places you on the Introvert/Extravert spectrum) and spent an entire day discussing the results. The message of the day was any of the different personality types can thrive and people should be aware of other's personality styles and taylor their interactions given what they know about themselves and what they know about the people they are interacting with. This was/is an important lesson and has been helpful in my career.
They ended the day with a set of two slides that broke down the population of the firm as a whole and the population of the partners in the firm. 80% of the firm were extraverts and >95% of the partners where extraverts. So the other lesson I learned that day, was that if you want to be in a sales-y leadership position, you better learn to behave like an extravert.