I am suprised to see that Norway's definiton is actually very broad, encompassing some killings that common law nations would not call murder (negligence). I do, now, appreciate that Norwegian law draws lines between intentional murder and planned murder. Common law (british) stops at intention, planning being irrelevant as you would generally be hanged either way. There has to be a historical basis for Norway's approach. Viking law?
> There has to be a historical basis for Norway's approach. Viking law?
Late but I think it is from Judaism via Christianity. I used to read a lot in the Bible when I was young (still read but not as much) and I think there are rules about intentional vs unintended killings in the old law, more specifically there are rules about cities of refugee where someone who has killed someone unintentionally can flee to.
Viking law is more about blood revenge, at least in practice (I've read a fair bit of Snorre and other Icelandic stories as well when I was younger.)
I think it is the lack of mental asylums here in US for Norway keeps the difficult cases off of the street that would best explains the disparate murder rate between two countries.
Norway has a rigorous involuntary admittance into mental asylums; US has at most strictest, 3-day VOLUNTARY admittance.
It is arguable that US mental asylums were dismantled by US Mental Health Systems Act of 1980.
In 1980 to 1993, Feds have shriveled up the states’ funds earmarked for fixed mental facilities and dedicated psychiatric hospitals of which took decades to recover in some form of private-funded psychiatry hospitals but still in no way covering all the US needs required for such care due to its “voluntary”-only approach and perhaps the lack of personal funding needed for its own mental health.
So, could that be the small price that US citizens pay for allowing freedom for some “insane” of their citizens just to roam ... freely and with unchecked access to firearms?
Philly is bad but let's compare best to best and worst to worst. What is the US state or county with lowest homicide rate? Higher than Norway probably, but by how much? What is the worst in Europe?
Looking at the other comments here, there should really be a pithy "law" like Godwin's for the act of comparing the USA to small, wealthy, homogenous countries with harsh immigration policies. I'm not saying it's bad, but boy is it common.
ok. Stick to comparing it to canada: a physically bigger country with higher immigration, slightly lower per-capita earning, more diversity, a similar rate of gun ownership, and a murder rate less than half that of the US.
By contrast, Baltimore - which has roughly 9%-10% the population of Norway - sees as many murders each year as Norway does every seven or eight years combined. An approximate 70 fold difference, give or take.
Does Norway have open borders? I'd like to live there. No? Oh well.
She warns that the positive development may turn once ...society reopens. (Because leaving an abusive relationship) is the setting in which most domestic murders take place.
A lot of people seem to not know this: Leaving an abusive situation is the most dangerous time. You are most likely to be killed when you try to leave.
Abusers don't think you have any rights. They don't think you deserve any respect. They see you as their personal property and it angers them for you to try to take that away from them.
Abusers trend towards feeling like "If I can't have you, no one can have you."
Edited to remove gendered language from the article quote, among other things.
Here's been some focus on this here last few years. About one in four murders are committed by a partner or ex-partner. Many of them have been in contact with the police in advance. A committee was formed to look into this and come with preventative measures[1], which recently released their conclusions[2].
I do wonder about the suicide rate, with this in mind. (ie accepting stuck in some situation and ending it vs trying to get out and getting murdered in the process)
I don't know why the article focuses so much on "the first X months." From 2010 through 2019, Norway had 298 victims of murder,[1] so 29.8 per year, or 2.5 per month, in average. Things usually "heat up" during the summer when more people are out and about.
When I see something like this, I'm always curious of the details on demographics, population density, economics, and the other data to know what's going on.
For example, the population density is 14.0/km2 (36.3/sq mi) and their ethnicity is primary Norwegian with a large part of the immigrants from other European countries.
This is very different from most places in the US. For density you'd need to look at Utah or Kansas. These two states have more ethnic diversity than Norway, it appears.
Note, I only point people to the data so we can try to start to look at why we have cases like Norway. And, this is only a start and the easy data to pull from Wikipedia. It's not meant to paint the reason for or picture.
Norway also has zero Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants
(Note, I only point people to the data so we can try to start to look at why we have cases like Norway)
edit: to defuse the snark in my reply as it's not fitting for a HN debate - presenting cherry picked data points and saying "I'm just presenting the data" is still making an argument just through which data you have chosen. Not explicitly stating your argument just makes it weaker.
[+] [-] sandworm101|5 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Norwegian_law)
I am suprised to see that Norway's definiton is actually very broad, encompassing some killings that common law nations would not call murder (negligence). I do, now, appreciate that Norwegian law draws lines between intentional murder and planned murder. Common law (british) stops at intention, planning being irrelevant as you would generally be hanged either way. There has to be a historical basis for Norway's approach. Viking law?
[+] [-] eitland|5 years ago|reply
Late but I think it is from Judaism via Christianity. I used to read a lot in the Bible when I was young (still read but not as much) and I think there are rules about intentional vs unintended killings in the old law, more specifically there are rules about cities of refugee where someone who has killed someone unintentionally can flee to.
Viking law is more about blood revenge, at least in practice (I've read a fair bit of Snorre and other Icelandic stories as well when I was younger.)
[+] [-] egberts|5 years ago|reply
Norway has a rigorous involuntary admittance into mental asylums; US has at most strictest, 3-day VOLUNTARY admittance.
It is arguable that US mental asylums were dismantled by US Mental Health Systems Act of 1980.
In 1980 to 1993, Feds have shriveled up the states’ funds earmarked for fixed mental facilities and dedicated psychiatric hospitals of which took decades to recover in some form of private-funded psychiatry hospitals but still in no way covering all the US needs required for such care due to its “voluntary”-only approach and perhaps the lack of personal funding needed for its own mental health.
So, could that be the small price that US citizens pay for allowing freedom for some “insane” of their citizens just to roam ... freely and with unchecked access to firearms?
== Reference: ==
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1...
- https://ijmhs.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13033-018-...
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Norway/comments/17tq0i/how_are_the_...
- https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210121/Researcher-explor...
[+] [-] ddevault|5 years ago|reply
https://controller.phila.gov/philadelphia-audits/mapping-gun...
[+] [-] max_|5 years ago|reply
I just finnished watching HBO's "The Wire" and my reaction was Jesus! Does is this really happen?
[+] [-] weinzierl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_70x|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] deadbytes|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mycologos|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sandworm101|5 years ago|reply
Canada murders per 100,000: 1.8
US: 5.0
[+] [-] adventured|5 years ago|reply
Does Norway have open borders? I'd like to live there. No? Oh well.
[+] [-] thatwasunusual|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/foreign/you-must-notif...
[+] [-] kwhitefoot|5 years ago|reply
But broadly speaking you can't live permanently here unless you have a job here or are an EU or EEA citizen.
[+] [-] throwaway0a5e|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfax|5 years ago|reply
Norway is part of the Schengen area, yeah
[+] [-] chrchang523|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YinglingLight|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|5 years ago|reply
She warns that the positive development may turn once ...society reopens. (Because leaving an abusive relationship) is the setting in which most domestic murders take place.
A lot of people seem to not know this: Leaving an abusive situation is the most dangerous time. You are most likely to be killed when you try to leave.
Abusers don't think you have any rights. They don't think you deserve any respect. They see you as their personal property and it angers them for you to try to take that away from them.
Abusers trend towards feeling like "If I can't have you, no one can have you."
Edited to remove gendered language from the article quote, among other things.
[+] [-] magicalhippo|5 years ago|reply
[1]: https://www.nrk.no/sorlandet/har-gjennomgatt-19-drap---i-dag...
[2]: https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/5f3dc96de14f443f869...
[+] [-] temp0826|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] refurb|5 years ago|reply
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SGP/singapore/murder-h...
[+] [-] adreamingsoul|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calyth2018|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thatwasunusual|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.politiet.no/globalassets/04-aktuelt-tall-og-fakt..., excluding the 2011 terror attack.
[+] [-] cujo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfax|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slacka|5 years ago|reply
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na...
The Onion has published the article 17 times:(
[+] [-] etangent|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] milkrocks|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moocowtruck|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] recursivedoubts|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cozuya|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mfer|5 years ago|reply
For example, the population density is 14.0/km2 (36.3/sq mi) and their ethnicity is primary Norwegian with a large part of the immigrants from other European countries.
This is very different from most places in the US. For density you'd need to look at Utah or Kansas. These two states have more ethnic diversity than Norway, it appears.
Note, I only point people to the data so we can try to start to look at why we have cases like Norway. And, this is only a start and the easy data to pull from Wikipedia. It's not meant to paint the reason for or picture.
[+] [-] kalleboo|5 years ago|reply
(Note, I only point people to the data so we can try to start to look at why we have cases like Norway)
edit: to defuse the snark in my reply as it's not fitting for a HN debate - presenting cherry picked data points and saying "I'm just presenting the data" is still making an argument just through which data you have chosen. Not explicitly stating your argument just makes it weaker.