I've been talking with friends about this issue and it really seems to come down to this: for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general. Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished. However, like in all organizations I've seen (especially universities or hospitals dealing with sexual harassment from profs/attendings) there are only two types of consequences available: absolutely nothing, or complete exile. The organization rallies to protect the offender over and over until eventually a tidal wave becomes overwhelming and the organization is forced to purge the offender completely. This is bad for everyone: bad for the people being abused (and who will be abused), bad for the organization's reputation, bad for the offender themselves as there is never incentive to correct their behavior! I don't really know whether it's possible to implement a system of "intermediate" consequences but the lack of such a relief valve does serious harm in the long term. Regrettably in this system, exiling the offender is preferable to nothing being done yet again.
> for some reason "intermediate" consequences are just impossible to implement in bureaucracies or organizations in general
This is not particular to small organizations, it's a feature of the whole society. This attitude is one of the hallmarks of a move towards totalitarianism. There is no compromise possible, total defeat or total annihilation of opposing views are the only options.
While I agree with the essence of your comment, I find the statement "Clearly Stallman did some completely unacceptable things and that can't go unpunished" is questionable. First, it's not "clearly", because the main argument (that he was defending Epstein) is false. Second, as to "unacceptable", it depends to who and when - certain things that were acceptable 20 years ago are unthinkable now. Third, as for "can't go unpunished" - again, the question is who should judge the guilt and who is going to pass sentence.
I think all the arguments about ostracizing him are open. Most are pretty out of context or admittedly he apologized for.
To me, this looks more like a group of people who don’t like RMS joining hands with industry to remove RMS AND THE ENTIRE FSF board.
RMS did nothing legally wrong, that’s why he’s not in prison and there’s no investigation. Because he took no actions.
From my perspective, the “ostracize RMS” crowd appear like bigots who are attacking someone with autism for personal gain. Yes he did something potentially inappropriate, he apologized and we should work on reforming.
If there’s no forgiveness for someone who had a different opinion (he didn’t act on anything, as far as we know), then there will be no quarter. No one wants to live in a world with no recourse.
> Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.
You can sign the "support" letter.
It says clearly that RMS is not above criticism, that it welcomes discussion on all the issues, but that the smear campaign supported by the other letter is unacceptable.
Besides, notice that the promoters of the pro-ostracization letter are not open for discussion. Any discussion or move towards a compromise (e.g., by questioning RMS's fit as a leader while rejecting the lies of the letter) is ruthlessly suppressed.
I do find it worrying how people here use flagging for anything that is controversial or where the community is highly divided, flagging is not for downvoting... these things need to be discussed not marked as irrelevant or inappropriate.
ahelwer|4 years ago
enriquto|4 years ago
This is not particular to small organizations, it's a feature of the whole society. This attitude is one of the hallmarks of a move towards totalitarianism. There is no compromise possible, total defeat or total annihilation of opposing views are the only options.
dvfjsdhgfv|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
mijoharas|4 years ago
przmk|4 years ago
The against letter is here : https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git...
And the for is here : https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io
You can find the number of votes on the respective websites for each letter or by checking the number of merged pull requests.
polaris64|4 years ago
I did this as a way to visualise the number of signatures over time, just as a matter of interest.
feverzsj|4 years ago
grlass|4 years ago
gerikson|4 years ago
nabla9|4 years ago
Where I can sign to support impartial investigation.
lettergram|4 years ago
To me, this looks more like a group of people who don’t like RMS joining hands with industry to remove RMS AND THE ENTIRE FSF board.
RMS did nothing legally wrong, that’s why he’s not in prison and there’s no investigation. Because he took no actions.
From my perspective, the “ostracize RMS” crowd appear like bigots who are attacking someone with autism for personal gain. Yes he did something potentially inappropriate, he apologized and we should work on reforming.
If there’s no forgiveness for someone who had a different opinion (he didn’t act on anything, as far as we know), then there will be no quarter. No one wants to live in a world with no recourse.
enriquto|4 years ago
You can sign the "support" letter.
It says clearly that RMS is not above criticism, that it welcomes discussion on all the issues, but that the smear campaign supported by the other letter is unacceptable.
Besides, notice that the promoters of the pro-ostracization letter are not open for discussion. Any discussion or move towards a compromise (e.g., by questioning RMS's fit as a leader while rejecting the lies of the letter) is ruthlessly suppressed.
john37386|4 years ago
What is the reasoning at HN for allowing one side of the story and censuring the other side. Very disappointed at HN moderators...
tomxor|4 years ago
mijoharas|4 years ago
This is a graph showing the counts of signatories both for and against. How is this post possibly coming out on either side of this issue?
shawnz|4 years ago
EDIT: As you can see it's dead now.
EDIT: And now it's back.