“Sick building syndrome” is a difficult topic to discuss because it’s very difficult to prove a connection between the vague symptoms and the building. In many cases, only a single person seems susceptible to the claimed building issues. In this case, the apartment complex appears to have over 1,800 units, which makes it surprising that only a single person is experiencing such dramatic effects.
Unfortunately, doubting these people’s stories is taboo online so I’m going to tread carefully. However, when only 1 unit out of 1800 apartments (presumably 2000-3000 total residents considering multi-bedroom units) is experiencing severe and dramatic symptoms, my first guess would not be the soil under the foundation. I would be looking for building materials or chemical spills in that specific apartment unit.
Also, I’m not suggesting that we discount this person’s story. Their symptoms are certainly very real in that they are suffering, but the selfie of the person wearing medical equipment in front of a mirror combined with measurements from consumer devices as evidence should be approached with caution. There is a relatively new phenomenon casually known as Munchausen by Internet where some patients are drawn to the increasing attention they can garner by sharing, and unfortunately exaggerating, their stories on the internet. These patients often post selfies of themselves wearing medical equipment, in doctor’s offices, or in hospital beds. More commonly, typical patients prefer not to be photographed with medical equipment or in medical facilities. Again, I’m not suggesting we disbelieve this person, but it’s important that we consider the bigger picture (1800 unit apartment complex, apparently only one case of severe symptoms?) before accepting a single person’s analysis of what is causing her issues.
Mistaken “sick building syndrome” diagnoses can actually be very detrimental to patients who mistake other illnesses as being caused by their buildings, as they hyperfocus on their presumed explanation to the exclusion of following more typical diagnostic work ups that would help them eliminate more common explanations for those symptoms.
To add to this she says she's in apartment 349 which is on the third floor. Very hard to imagine off gassing from the ground creates hazardous conditions three floors up.
Not to be indelicate, but the thing that reliably spikes my air monitor is passing gas. Would match up with the nausea and other symptoms. Not to mention the "earthquake" hallucination
That said, it's hard to argue with the measured heart rate. A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something. It just seems very unlikely it's from ground contamination.
How do you know this was the only person? Others might have complaint to the property management company. Besides that, not everyone thinks that its their own home who makes them sick and they will blame something else. Its possible that a specific area hasn’t been cleaned properly so only a few apartments will be affacted and not all 1800.
The only way to see what going on is by doing another Phase II ESA study. But those are expensive and you will need the approval of the owner which will be unlikely.
Yes. I know I'm personally extremely sensitive to VOC's in a way most other people aren't, so I don't doubt her medical symptoms at all.
But the fact that it's new construction, and that the readings peaked at 3am would lead me to expect it's high-VOC construction materials, and the VOC's are accumulating while people have their windows closed at night and/or the HVAC system circulates less. I also wonder if she by any chance purchased a new memory foam mattress and/or pillows when she moved -- some people (like me) are horribly affected by the VOC's in them, even after many months.
Building on a previous Superfund site could be an entirely separate and coincidental issue here.
My experience with VOC's has also taught me, don't stick around and try to fight it -- just leave ASAP!! (or toss your mattress no matter how much you paid for it). And the fact that her doctors never suggested VOC's could be the culprit seems astonishingly negligent to me. I'm so sorry she had to endure these symptoms for months and months without anyone suggesting, hey go stay at a friend's for a few nights and see if it gets better.
> In this case, the apartment complex appears to have over 1,800 units, which makes it surprising that only a single person is experiencing such dramatic effects.
I don’t disagree with what you are saying overall but you reference this “1 out of 1,800” point at least three times in your comment. It’s important to keep in mind that it’s not necessarily relevant as any number of people in those 1,800 units may or may not be experiencing a variety of issues related to this.
The article mentions that there is a 500 gallon tank of some toxic material buried at a unknown location in the property. 500 gallons is very small -- 66 cubic feet, which is about 4 ft by 4 ft by 4 ft.
In my opinion, that makes it completely plausible that a problem relating to that tank could be so localized that it will only affect one tenant.
I'm not saying her problem was due to the 500 gallon tank. All I'm saying is that if it is, then it is not unbelievable that it affected only one (or a small number) of tenants.
> More commonly, typical patients prefer not to be photographed with medical equipment or in medical facilities
So you're saying that real patients don't take selfies with equipment on? What an odd thing to say. Like why would that somehow prove the validity of her story?
I live in a neighborhood on the outskirts of the city. We're are downwind from a compost facility sometimes. The smell is horrible k if you grew up using outhouses, it's the smell after a weekend when the extended family visits). Very intense some days. However, it is just "a bad smell".
They recently lost thier operating permit and need to relocate in a year or so - so this is a real thing and not just the collective imagination of a Facebook group of local homeowners.
However, people report crazy symptoms from "the smell". Migraines, hives, etc. Not being able to sleep, having to rewash clothes because they think the dryer air intake made them stink.
I think the vast, vast majority of these symptoms and effects are people outraged that their very expensive home has an odour, only detectable outside, that they don't like. The stress of not getting thier way immediately leads them to these other health issues in my opinion. And it takes thier argument up a notch (prove they don't have a headache).
Anyway, my opinion is not popular. :)
I don't like the smell either and I'm glad they are moving the facility but it was just a bad smell.
The first advice you’ll get from most people is to document everything.
Her taking a photo wearing medical equipment is extremely important. It would be normal to include it in the story. Also, people post their lives on social media as part of their journey. Being extremely sick would certainly be part of her journey.
She has some medical problems. She discovered environmental problems with the building or whole property. Most probably they are not related - but there is this disturbing thing that the environmental problems would never be fixed if they cause only very low-grade harm.
> Their symptoms are certainly very real in that they are suffering, but the selfie of the person wearing medical equipment in front of a mirror combined with measurements from consumer devices as evidence should be approached with caution.
In addition, this woman has, at least, a full arm sleeve tattoo.
Tattoo inks are NOT FDA certified and the health side effects are unstudied and unknown.
Yeah, most people don't have a reaction, but it's highly probable that some do and she may simply be one of the unlucky ones.
There is poison that kills you and then there’s poison that makes your life 1% worse. Most people don’t notice or can’t get a deterministic diagnosis, a small number of people are disproportionally effected.
This is where we are in many places medically. The big problems are easy, the small problems are hard.
Also worth noting is that several large tech companies are on <100 feet away from her apartment, literally across the street.
AMD, Hitachi, Applied Materials
Again, not doubting her story. I very much think her problem needs to be addressed. But, it's not just an "evil rental company" problem, these huge tech companies directly across the street from this waste had to have known about this too.
Complaining about vague symptoms and then complaining about data collected with consumer devices is a little unfair IMO. We should be encouraging people with vague symptoms to collect more objective data!
There are of course drawbacks with consumer devices compared to medical equipment, but there are also a lot of medical issues that come and go, possibly with time of day effects or specific triggers. Using only a few brief snapshots that come from official doctor visits to draw any conclusion is a huge drawback of much of modern medicine, and biomedical research is slowly trending towards addressing this.
If one is careful in buying high quality consumer devices and doing some sanity checks with their data collection process I feel it can already be informative. It can be a great screener and guide people towards what type of specialist they should see.
For some tests there are "take home" medical versions that can get a more official (albeit still much briefer than personal equipment) dataset. However it can often be difficult to get a doctor to order based on vague symptoms, and it is non-ideal for patients to go on such a fishing expedition through official channels, especially the way medical billing/insurance works in the US.
I get there is concern about patients reading into the data too much, and yes there will be some people with psychiatric problems that could be enabled. But I think the benefits far outweigh the costs. In addition to early detection of issues in healthy people, it would also have a lot of upside for people with inexplicable chronic illness.
Yes people like that are vulnerable and will cling to things, but guess what - giving them a shitty label like Fibromyalgia only drives them to alternative medicine scams and toxic internet forums. It's human nature to look for alternatives when something has failed, and so why not at least channel that in to something potentially productive? In some cases they might even find a real diagnosis, but in general it could lead to actual research on these very poorly defined diseases.
I don't know anything about sick building syndrome so can't really comment on that, but assuming the person didn't lie that would be remarkably coincidental timing with the move in and move out dates. Perhaps the toxin they identified is irrelevant, but there sure does seem to be something odd going on while they lived in that apartment.
They also are clinically fine again now, so even if it was some weird psychological thing, moving out of the building fixed the problem and therefore the data lead her to the right "treatment".
I guess my point is that maybe you're right that this wasn't sick building syndrome, and maybe that makes this article a net negative, because it could lead others to look for that where it isn't. But another takeaway from the article is just the more abstract story about investigating your problems so that you're more equipped to handle them. There can be non-medical/low risk interventions or mitigating strategies, and even in this instance it did also drive her towards relevant doctors (although it's impossible to say whether she sought out legitimate doctors since there is probably a higher ratio of quacks specializing in environmental toxins)
Some years back I signed a lease in a luxury apartment hi-rise in downtown Chicago. The complex had been an add-on to an existing shopping center and mall. Long story short, the apartment smelled like old grease and trash often, and I could never trace the exact source as it would come and go.
No matter how many air filtration units I installed, or odor absorbing devices, the odors would still collect and infiltrate my clothing and furniture. Again, it wasn't constant but regular enough for me not to stay there very often.
I ended up caulking the entire apartment with clear caulk and sealing any air gaps. Because the hi-rise was pressurized like most hi-rises, I concluded somehow this was drawing up smells from grease traps etc. Of course I could never prove it.
My conclusion is that most of these buildings are so cheaply and poorly made that I will never again rent a unit like this. Too bad I spent 30k on the lease and hardly ever stayed there. So the woman's experience seems pretty plausible to me.
> I ended up caulking the entire apartment with clear caulk and sealing any air gaps. Because the hi-rise was pressurized like most hi-rises, I concluded somehow this was drawing up smells from grease traps etc.
I would be cautious of taking actions like these as it can have some pretty bad knock on effects. I'm on the board of my condo corporation for a high rise in Canada and we have seen topics like this come up from time to time.
To help control odour between units, the air handling system in our building is designed to draw air into the hallways, from the hallways to the units, to outside. The idea of routing airflow like this is to try and prevent smell transfer between units, but the airflow also has a purpose to help control moisture buildup, which IIRC gets worse if there is no airflow, and can lead to mold. So we discourage blocking the airflow from the way the building was designed, and property management has advised us in other buildings this had been observed to lead to severe moisture problems.
And we have had issue pop up with trash smell and the like. Where that's happened to us is two causes, there is a sort of air damper on the garbage chute, and it's gotten jammed on us IIRC. The other is our garbage room opens to take the bins out, and if the doors are left open for an extended period and the wind hits the building right it can draw air through the garbage room and through the chute. This can also occur when folks leave their trash blocking the chute door open allowing more air to flow between the chute and hallways.
Stuff like that can be hard to figure out, because if the garbage room is left open every day, it doesn't always happen due to the wind or possibly other factors.
The third one we get sometimes is smoking smells, which is usually caused by a smoker not wanting to use their balcony in winter, so instead they go into the stairwells. We traced one of those across more than 20 floors once. It can be difficult to trace those ones, so it comes with a lot of sending broadcast messages and work to trace down.
I get not all property managers are super helpful, but if they get a few reports from different individuals and can link it to some action like having the garbage room open can hopefully have them solve the real problem.
I’m surprised she didn’t try to escape from her apartment like you did. She mentions sleeping outside on an occasion, but that’s about it. I think I would have paid some money to go to a hotel, stay with a friend, grab an AirBnB someplace just to figure out if my symptoms went away. The things she was experiencing sounded just horrible.
Most people here seem concerned about vocs. Plastics, carpets, sofas, paints, air fresheners and a ton of other typical household items produce them.
I feel like the author is really jumping the gun here in identifying the source of pollutants by not seeking to consider the fact that new apartments are loaded with freshly off-gassing materials.
The other thing that should have been mentioned is more about their vitals prior to moving in. How confident was she in her baseline because it could be a preexisting condition that became very exacerbated.
Edit: But that said, my opinion of the Irvine company is extremely low. I’d not be the least bit surprised if they willfully cut every corner they could. Either with remediation or materials in the apartment. And pollutants do pool overnight but near freeways they are typically the worst in the dawn hours. There would be less air exchange in the apartment, leading to a buildup from an external or internal source.
Typically you have doors and windows closed at night, so with reduced ventilation its typical for c02 or VOCs to spike. It must suck to live somewhere (LA?) where opening the windows doesn't help
Lease agreements can’t simply waive away criminal liability. You can’t commit crimes or fraud against someone just by getting them to sign a waiver.
I would guess that the real issue is that it would be difficult to prove that the leasing company was aware of the issues, or even that the environmental issues are the cause of this person’s problems.
The topic of what has come to be known as “sick building syndrome” is a thorny legal issue because many times it’s not easy to prove that the building is causing the person’s problem. Most commonly, the issue is that the building is only triggering issues for a single person, while others in the same building are fine. It’s also difficult to separate out the psychosomatic complaints from people who believe their issues are from the building when they might actually be from something else. Doubting these patients publicly is very taboo, but medically it’s actually not uncommon for this to happen.
I mean a legal system which allows people to trick and force people into not being able to protect themself if they are scammed is completely broken IMHO.
Seriously, I don’t see why this is legal. Sure, s/he should of read the lease carefully but sometimes landlord’s purposely stuff their lease agreements which makes it equivalent to online terms of service.
Agreed. Why is it even possible to get people to waive away their rights via fine print? These clauses are a standard feature of most if not all contracts these days. They should be illegal.
I'm curious at what the VOCs were that were being measured by the home devices.
Indoor VOCs can be caused by numerous common sources. Some of these would be common in a new development:
- Paints/Coatings
- Flooring
- Furniture
- Cleaners & Disinfectants
Even though she states "I also noticed the tVOCs seemed to rise and fall at different times of the day when I was having the worst symptoms", this can be affected by things such as the rise and fall of the temperature in the indoor space, or even whether something as seemingly benign as candles are lit.
I have no say in this either way, as it would require testing of other similar units and finding out if there are any specific VOC sources in her individual unit (did a room get painted recently)?
When dealing with indoor VOC levels, it can get tricky.
This is a great point, I've heard of people purchasing a piece of furniture, getting wicked allergy symptoms/irriated airways, buying one of these tVOC meters, and finding out it's their chair/couch/etc.
She got sick when she moved in? What new furniture did she buy?
That's a good point. The article dwells on the remediations done to the site that admittedly may not be effective, but didn't mention furniture in the unit. It could be her couch or a cleaner she's using.
There are a lot of armchair scientists touting their ill-informed theories, such as “she lives on the 3rd floor” and “she just passes a lot of gas”.
Building are complex structures with numerous pathways and extensive air flow channels that harmful chemicals could pass through or get blown.
Often, airflow equipment is in the basement or first floor, blowing air throughout a building.
The best way to handle this is to 1) stop the pseudo-scientific babble, and 2) perform scientific measurements of the air quality by qualified professionals. From the article, it looks like she is doing her best to quantify her health issues and to get scientific help. What’s wrong with that?
There have absolutely been cases where well-meaning people on the internet have caused harm by latching on to a pseudo-scientific explanation for an unexplained illness. I’m thinking of anti-vaxxers, chronic lyme disease, etc.
I think it’s commendable that the author is trying to quantify her health issues, but I also don’t think she makes a very strong case that the cause is toxic waste in the ground as opposed to some other issue.
It is irresponsible in my opinion for her to write an article titled “I thought I was dying: My apartment was built on toxic waste” without more concrete evidence. If she is wrong, this could cause undue panic and suffering for other residents in the area, as well as monetary damages to the building’s owner.
Of course there is also the possibility that she is right, too. But given the severity of her symptoms, and the number of residents in the complex, I would expect to see more people showing up at local hospitals with similar issues. I think the correct course of action for a person in this situation would basically be to report the issue to local health authorities and the building’s management, and move out as soon as possible.
> The completion report said, “While not an environmental remedy, because there are no significant risks, a VIMS consisting of a vapor barrier and a sub-slab venting system has been designed and installed.” Installing these apparently could cost millions of dollars. It’s curious to me that Roux would plan to build four VIMS, or even build one, if they really thought VOCs were not an issue.
That sounds awfully like the way that ordinary houses are constructed, especially anywhere with (naturally occurring!) radium in or under the soil. When one builds a house with a slab foundation, one first builds a capillary break (a bunch of rocks with no fines, perhaps — this is an air-permeable layer), then applies a vapor barrier (polyethylene sheets), then pours the slab directly on the vapor barrier. The only thing special about sub slab venting is a pipe from the capillary break to the roof that may or may not be fan assisted. The goal isn’t so much to remove gas from under the slab as to reduce the pressure under the slab below the pressure above the slab such that gas doesn’t intrude.
All of this except the pipe is done regardless of soil gas concerns — water vapor coming through the slab destroys floor coverings.
I know basically nothing about commercial construction, and I could easily believe that vapor barriers are optional under parking lots.
Given that the VOCs in question are easily measurable in real time with a cheap sensor, it could be interesting to measure the VOCs at the lowest level of the parking lot over time. Some parking lots have CO (or CO2?) sensors that control exhaust fans. If there is less car activity at 3am, the fans could turn off, and that could have any number of effects.
(Also, the author doesn’t seem to have tried to distinguish between gasses coming from the building and gasses coming from under or outside the building. There is no actual evidence I saw in the article that the problem is a problem with the site. Heck, a building air intake being contaminated by gasses from the parking lot could introduce a fair amount of CO and NOx even if the levels were too low to set off a CO alarm. Builders mess up the airflow in buildings all the time.
Sadly, NOx sensors do not appear to be available at comparable prices to tVOC and CO sensors.
Compelling article. Definitely raises real problems deserving of scrutiny; technical, legal, and administrative. I was a little bothered that this is just a direct reprinting of a single (admittedly deep and well-rounded) anecdotal experience, with no input from subject matter experts or independent attempts to contact other tenants.
I sent the article to a friend who’s a hydrogeologist and environmental remediation consultant. Basically, the guy that cleanup companies send to assess these sites, take samples, and make remediation plans. His hot take:
“Based on the info in the article alone I’d be very surprised if soil or groundwater VOCs were getting into her unit in concentrations high enough to cause acute health effects. Sounds like there’s a vapor venting system installed which in my experience alleviates all indoor air concerns. It could be that it exhausts near her window or something and concentrates in her apartment, but that would be a design/architectural issue more than an environmental issue per se. My initial suspicion would be that she bought cheap furniture or there’s cheap carpets or something that are offgassing VOCs.”
A quick read from a single expert isn’t enough to draw conclusions, but I do wish the paper had bothered to seek that kind of input before publishing.
Whatever the cause of this person’s symptoms may be, inadequate environmental remediation is a very real problem that deserves our concern. I wish the comments in this thread focused more on that. Instead the primary debate is whether a single person with apparently serious symptoms but no expertise, resources, or authority made the right technical call after being ignored by the people with all the expertise, resources, and authority. IMO that is the real story here: a person bought (a) furnishing for (b) a condo on a plot of (c) remediated land, experienced a health crisis, and the relevant parties (that she’s paying rent and taxes to!) all seem to have ghosted her instead of investigating which of those 3 things was the problem. After an experience like that, how could you blame her for doing her best to collect evidence and draw her own conclusions?
Even if the cause she identified is wrong, it’s not imagined. This isn’t “cancer from cell towers” or “migraines from wind turbines”. You just won’t read an article from the victims of industrial pollution in Bayview/Hunter’s Point.
She mentions her vitals returned to normal after moving away, and presumably she took her furniture when she moved, so it seems unlikely it’s caused by that.
When you’re sick, a lot of times your home is your safe place. You go home and crawl in bed and try to feel better. Imagine your safe place to feel better is causing you to become even sicker.
This story is very plausible. Just look at the Shipyard condos in San Francisco. They had a cleanup, and apparently some parts of cleanup were fraudulent. So residents are suing.
As a reminder to SFbay folks, if you’re near a local waterway and you smell a strong smell of vanilla cupcakes, you might be breathing an industrial toxin that leached from a local superfund site. (Don’t panic, it won’t kill you quickly!) It’s unfortunate that her VOCs were odorless because if they were cupcake-odored there wouldn’t have been any argument.
> one of my neighbors at the same complex complained about blue tap water and paid for a private lab test showing “very high” levels of lead, copper and other contaminants in the water.
That's weird, though "copper" could just be from the pipes, and it's probably unrelated to VOCs. The complex should be on city water, and all the pipes are new.
I’m interested in the 3:00am spike shown on the monitors and her physical response. Could the building’s HVAC be programmed to turn on (or off) at that time?
I never would of though to check something like this. Interestingly, the EPA has a GIS API so I see a couple people make maps on ARCGIS. Definitely making something for my house purchase.
Kind of interesting how similar this is to other serious problems with vinyl chloride in Silicon Valley. Also kind of interesting that so many sofa based contamination engineers here didn't bother to investigate any of that. HN has a really serious problem with people who have a weak grasp of complex subjects carrying on like what they say relates to anything.
There is an interesting case in Irvine, CA. There's an Asphalt plant which has been operating since 1993. (All American Asphalt company). Few years ago, the City of Irvine approved residential within 1-2 miles of this plant. The area is called Orchard Hills, houses from 1-3M USD. There is an ongoing investigation from UCI, City of Irvine, residents and government air quality control agency as many people reports strong asphalt smell and high VoC. Worth following https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-development/all-ameri...
Are there good open-source components for air quality monitoring, e.g multiple sensors that work with a common software platform, for continuous data collection and analysis? Ideally something that works with low-cost boards like ESP32.
All you internet trolls that have nothing to do to criticize this article need a wake up call. Did you not read anything about how Irvine Co seemed super sketch about the whole thing, refused to investigate, and made retaliatory threats?! Of course no one else would push this through! In my opinion, this girl is a complete badass fighting for answers and instead of criticizing her we ought to share this information so it can be properly investigated. For all of you writing these idiot comments, just think about if you were in her shoes. Instead of victim blaming, how about we get alongside her and try to find answers.
I don't see it mentioned here, but I wonder if the trees around the apartment are transpiring the vocs that are absorbed from the (potentially) contaminated water. That would be a way these vocs reach her 3rd floor apt, and also may be why her particular apartment is affected more than others.in the building (proximity to a particular tree?)
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|5 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, doubting these people’s stories is taboo online so I’m going to tread carefully. However, when only 1 unit out of 1800 apartments (presumably 2000-3000 total residents considering multi-bedroom units) is experiencing severe and dramatic symptoms, my first guess would not be the soil under the foundation. I would be looking for building materials or chemical spills in that specific apartment unit.
Also, I’m not suggesting that we discount this person’s story. Their symptoms are certainly very real in that they are suffering, but the selfie of the person wearing medical equipment in front of a mirror combined with measurements from consumer devices as evidence should be approached with caution. There is a relatively new phenomenon casually known as Munchausen by Internet where some patients are drawn to the increasing attention they can garner by sharing, and unfortunately exaggerating, their stories on the internet. These patients often post selfies of themselves wearing medical equipment, in doctor’s offices, or in hospital beds. More commonly, typical patients prefer not to be photographed with medical equipment or in medical facilities. Again, I’m not suggesting we disbelieve this person, but it’s important that we consider the bigger picture (1800 unit apartment complex, apparently only one case of severe symptoms?) before accepting a single person’s analysis of what is causing her issues.
Mistaken “sick building syndrome” diagnoses can actually be very detrimental to patients who mistake other illnesses as being caused by their buildings, as they hyperfocus on their presumed explanation to the exclusion of following more typical diagnostic work ups that would help them eliminate more common explanations for those symptoms.
[+] [-] treis|5 years ago|reply
Not to be indelicate, but the thing that reliably spikes my air monitor is passing gas. Would match up with the nausea and other symptoms. Not to mention the "earthquake" hallucination
That said, it's hard to argue with the measured heart rate. A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something. It just seems very unlikely it's from ground contamination.
[+] [-] Schweigi|5 years ago|reply
The only way to see what going on is by doing another Phase II ESA study. But those are expensive and you will need the approval of the owner which will be unlikely.
[+] [-] crazygringo|5 years ago|reply
But the fact that it's new construction, and that the readings peaked at 3am would lead me to expect it's high-VOC construction materials, and the VOC's are accumulating while people have their windows closed at night and/or the HVAC system circulates less. I also wonder if she by any chance purchased a new memory foam mattress and/or pillows when she moved -- some people (like me) are horribly affected by the VOC's in them, even after many months.
Building on a previous Superfund site could be an entirely separate and coincidental issue here.
My experience with VOC's has also taught me, don't stick around and try to fight it -- just leave ASAP!! (or toss your mattress no matter how much you paid for it). And the fact that her doctors never suggested VOC's could be the culprit seems astonishingly negligent to me. I'm so sorry she had to endure these symptoms for months and months without anyone suggesting, hey go stay at a friend's for a few nights and see if it gets better.
[+] [-] cdubzzz|5 years ago|reply
I don’t disagree with what you are saying overall but you reference this “1 out of 1,800” point at least three times in your comment. It’s important to keep in mind that it’s not necessarily relevant as any number of people in those 1,800 units may or may not be experiencing a variety of issues related to this.
[+] [-] georgeam|5 years ago|reply
In my opinion, that makes it completely plausible that a problem relating to that tank could be so localized that it will only affect one tenant.
I'm not saying her problem was due to the 500 gallon tank. All I'm saying is that if it is, then it is not unbelievable that it affected only one (or a small number) of tenants.
[+] [-] nathanvanfleet|5 years ago|reply
So you're saying that real patients don't take selfies with equipment on? What an odd thing to say. Like why would that somehow prove the validity of her story?
[+] [-] zikzak|5 years ago|reply
They recently lost thier operating permit and need to relocate in a year or so - so this is a real thing and not just the collective imagination of a Facebook group of local homeowners.
However, people report crazy symptoms from "the smell". Migraines, hives, etc. Not being able to sleep, having to rewash clothes because they think the dryer air intake made them stink.
I think the vast, vast majority of these symptoms and effects are people outraged that their very expensive home has an odour, only detectable outside, that they don't like. The stress of not getting thier way immediately leads them to these other health issues in my opinion. And it takes thier argument up a notch (prove they don't have a headache).
Anyway, my opinion is not popular. :)
I don't like the smell either and I'm glad they are moving the facility but it was just a bad smell.
[+] [-] iJohnDoe|5 years ago|reply
Her taking a photo wearing medical equipment is extremely important. It would be normal to include it in the story. Also, people post their lives on social media as part of their journey. Being extremely sick would certainly be part of her journey.
[+] [-] zby|5 years ago|reply
This is very much https://www.gwern.net/Littlewood
[+] [-] bsder|5 years ago|reply
In addition, this woman has, at least, a full arm sleeve tattoo.
Tattoo inks are NOT FDA certified and the health side effects are unstudied and unknown.
Yeah, most people don't have a reaction, but it's highly probable that some do and she may simply be one of the unlucky ones.
[+] [-] colechristensen|5 years ago|reply
There is poison that kills you and then there’s poison that makes your life 1% worse. Most people don’t notice or can’t get a deterministic diagnosis, a small number of people are disproportionally effected.
This is where we are in many places medically. The big problems are easy, the small problems are hard.
[+] [-] sroussey|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ljhsiung|5 years ago|reply
AMD, Hitachi, Applied Materials
Again, not doubting her story. I very much think her problem needs to be addressed. But, it's not just an "evil rental company" problem, these huge tech companies directly across the street from this waste had to have known about this too.
[+] [-] caddemon|5 years ago|reply
There are of course drawbacks with consumer devices compared to medical equipment, but there are also a lot of medical issues that come and go, possibly with time of day effects or specific triggers. Using only a few brief snapshots that come from official doctor visits to draw any conclusion is a huge drawback of much of modern medicine, and biomedical research is slowly trending towards addressing this.
If one is careful in buying high quality consumer devices and doing some sanity checks with their data collection process I feel it can already be informative. It can be a great screener and guide people towards what type of specialist they should see.
For some tests there are "take home" medical versions that can get a more official (albeit still much briefer than personal equipment) dataset. However it can often be difficult to get a doctor to order based on vague symptoms, and it is non-ideal for patients to go on such a fishing expedition through official channels, especially the way medical billing/insurance works in the US.
I get there is concern about patients reading into the data too much, and yes there will be some people with psychiatric problems that could be enabled. But I think the benefits far outweigh the costs. In addition to early detection of issues in healthy people, it would also have a lot of upside for people with inexplicable chronic illness.
Yes people like that are vulnerable and will cling to things, but guess what - giving them a shitty label like Fibromyalgia only drives them to alternative medicine scams and toxic internet forums. It's human nature to look for alternatives when something has failed, and so why not at least channel that in to something potentially productive? In some cases they might even find a real diagnosis, but in general it could lead to actual research on these very poorly defined diseases.
I don't know anything about sick building syndrome so can't really comment on that, but assuming the person didn't lie that would be remarkably coincidental timing with the move in and move out dates. Perhaps the toxin they identified is irrelevant, but there sure does seem to be something odd going on while they lived in that apartment.
They also are clinically fine again now, so even if it was some weird psychological thing, moving out of the building fixed the problem and therefore the data lead her to the right "treatment".
I guess my point is that maybe you're right that this wasn't sick building syndrome, and maybe that makes this article a net negative, because it could lead others to look for that where it isn't. But another takeaway from the article is just the more abstract story about investigating your problems so that you're more equipped to handle them. There can be non-medical/low risk interventions or mitigating strategies, and even in this instance it did also drive her towards relevant doctors (although it's impossible to say whether she sought out legitimate doctors since there is probably a higher ratio of quacks specializing in environmental toxins)
[+] [-] Aboh33|5 years ago|reply
I ended up caulking the entire apartment with clear caulk and sealing any air gaps. Because the hi-rise was pressurized like most hi-rises, I concluded somehow this was drawing up smells from grease traps etc. Of course I could never prove it.
My conclusion is that most of these buildings are so cheaply and poorly made that I will never again rent a unit like this. Too bad I spent 30k on the lease and hardly ever stayed there. So the woman's experience seems pretty plausible to me.
[+] [-] kevin_nisbet|5 years ago|reply
I would be cautious of taking actions like these as it can have some pretty bad knock on effects. I'm on the board of my condo corporation for a high rise in Canada and we have seen topics like this come up from time to time.
To help control odour between units, the air handling system in our building is designed to draw air into the hallways, from the hallways to the units, to outside. The idea of routing airflow like this is to try and prevent smell transfer between units, but the airflow also has a purpose to help control moisture buildup, which IIRC gets worse if there is no airflow, and can lead to mold. So we discourage blocking the airflow from the way the building was designed, and property management has advised us in other buildings this had been observed to lead to severe moisture problems.
And we have had issue pop up with trash smell and the like. Where that's happened to us is two causes, there is a sort of air damper on the garbage chute, and it's gotten jammed on us IIRC. The other is our garbage room opens to take the bins out, and if the doors are left open for an extended period and the wind hits the building right it can draw air through the garbage room and through the chute. This can also occur when folks leave their trash blocking the chute door open allowing more air to flow between the chute and hallways.
Stuff like that can be hard to figure out, because if the garbage room is left open every day, it doesn't always happen due to the wind or possibly other factors.
The third one we get sometimes is smoking smells, which is usually caused by a smoker not wanting to use their balcony in winter, so instead they go into the stairwells. We traced one of those across more than 20 floors once. It can be difficult to trace those ones, so it comes with a lot of sending broadcast messages and work to trace down.
I get not all property managers are super helpful, but if they get a few reports from different individuals and can link it to some action like having the garbage room open can hopefully have them solve the real problem.
[+] [-] crocsarecool|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wrongdonf|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] mint2|5 years ago|reply
I feel like the author is really jumping the gun here in identifying the source of pollutants by not seeking to consider the fact that new apartments are loaded with freshly off-gassing materials.
The other thing that should have been mentioned is more about their vitals prior to moving in. How confident was she in her baseline because it could be a preexisting condition that became very exacerbated.
Edit: But that said, my opinion of the Irvine company is extremely low. I’d not be the least bit surprised if they willfully cut every corner they could. Either with remediation or materials in the apartment. And pollutants do pool overnight but near freeways they are typically the worst in the dawn hours. There would be less air exchange in the apartment, leading to a buildup from an external or internal source.
[+] [-] dosethree|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ohazi|5 years ago|reply
> I reached out to environmental attorneys. It quickly became an issue that my lease agreement included litigation and class action waivers.
This bullshit needs to stop.
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|5 years ago|reply
I would guess that the real issue is that it would be difficult to prove that the leasing company was aware of the issues, or even that the environmental issues are the cause of this person’s problems.
The topic of what has come to be known as “sick building syndrome” is a thorny legal issue because many times it’s not easy to prove that the building is causing the person’s problem. Most commonly, the issue is that the building is only triggering issues for a single person, while others in the same building are fine. It’s also difficult to separate out the psychosomatic complaints from people who believe their issues are from the building when they might actually be from something else. Doubting these patients publicly is very taboo, but medically it’s actually not uncommon for this to happen.
[+] [-] dathinab|5 years ago|reply
How can that be legal?
I mean a legal system which allows people to trick and force people into not being able to protect themself if they are scammed is completely broken IMHO.
[+] [-] syntaxing|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexfromapex|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EMM_386|5 years ago|reply
Indoor VOCs can be caused by numerous common sources. Some of these would be common in a new development:
- Paints/Coatings
- Flooring
- Furniture
- Cleaners & Disinfectants
Even though she states "I also noticed the tVOCs seemed to rise and fall at different times of the day when I was having the worst symptoms", this can be affected by things such as the rise and fall of the temperature in the indoor space, or even whether something as seemingly benign as candles are lit.
I have no say in this either way, as it would require testing of other similar units and finding out if there are any specific VOC sources in her individual unit (did a room get painted recently)?
When dealing with indoor VOC levels, it can get tricky.
[+] [-] relax88|5 years ago|reply
She got sick when she moved in? What new furniture did she buy?
[+] [-] dehrmann|5 years ago|reply
That's a good point. The article dwells on the remediations done to the site that admittedly may not be effective, but didn't mention furniture in the unit. It could be her couch or a cleaner she's using.
[+] [-] runjake|5 years ago|reply
Building are complex structures with numerous pathways and extensive air flow channels that harmful chemicals could pass through or get blown.
Often, airflow equipment is in the basement or first floor, blowing air throughout a building.
The best way to handle this is to 1) stop the pseudo-scientific babble, and 2) perform scientific measurements of the air quality by qualified professionals. From the article, it looks like she is doing her best to quantify her health issues and to get scientific help. What’s wrong with that?
[+] [-] freetime2|5 years ago|reply
I think it’s commendable that the author is trying to quantify her health issues, but I also don’t think she makes a very strong case that the cause is toxic waste in the ground as opposed to some other issue.
It is irresponsible in my opinion for her to write an article titled “I thought I was dying: My apartment was built on toxic waste” without more concrete evidence. If she is wrong, this could cause undue panic and suffering for other residents in the area, as well as monetary damages to the building’s owner.
Of course there is also the possibility that she is right, too. But given the severity of her symptoms, and the number of residents in the complex, I would expect to see more people showing up at local hospitals with similar issues. I think the correct course of action for a person in this situation would basically be to report the issue to local health authorities and the building’s management, and move out as soon as possible.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] amluto|5 years ago|reply
That sounds awfully like the way that ordinary houses are constructed, especially anywhere with (naturally occurring!) radium in or under the soil. When one builds a house with a slab foundation, one first builds a capillary break (a bunch of rocks with no fines, perhaps — this is an air-permeable layer), then applies a vapor barrier (polyethylene sheets), then pours the slab directly on the vapor barrier. The only thing special about sub slab venting is a pipe from the capillary break to the roof that may or may not be fan assisted. The goal isn’t so much to remove gas from under the slab as to reduce the pressure under the slab below the pressure above the slab such that gas doesn’t intrude.
All of this except the pipe is done regardless of soil gas concerns — water vapor coming through the slab destroys floor coverings.
I know basically nothing about commercial construction, and I could easily believe that vapor barriers are optional under parking lots.
Given that the VOCs in question are easily measurable in real time with a cheap sensor, it could be interesting to measure the VOCs at the lowest level of the parking lot over time. Some parking lots have CO (or CO2?) sensors that control exhaust fans. If there is less car activity at 3am, the fans could turn off, and that could have any number of effects.
(Also, the author doesn’t seem to have tried to distinguish between gasses coming from the building and gasses coming from under or outside the building. There is no actual evidence I saw in the article that the problem is a problem with the site. Heck, a building air intake being contaminated by gasses from the parking lot could introduce a fair amount of CO and NOx even if the levels were too low to set off a CO alarm. Builders mess up the airflow in buildings all the time.
Sadly, NOx sensors do not appear to be available at comparable prices to tVOC and CO sensors.
[+] [-] SigmaEpsilonChi|5 years ago|reply
I sent the article to a friend who’s a hydrogeologist and environmental remediation consultant. Basically, the guy that cleanup companies send to assess these sites, take samples, and make remediation plans. His hot take:
“Based on the info in the article alone I’d be very surprised if soil or groundwater VOCs were getting into her unit in concentrations high enough to cause acute health effects. Sounds like there’s a vapor venting system installed which in my experience alleviates all indoor air concerns. It could be that it exhausts near her window or something and concentrates in her apartment, but that would be a design/architectural issue more than an environmental issue per se. My initial suspicion would be that she bought cheap furniture or there’s cheap carpets or something that are offgassing VOCs.”
A quick read from a single expert isn’t enough to draw conclusions, but I do wish the paper had bothered to seek that kind of input before publishing.
Whatever the cause of this person’s symptoms may be, inadequate environmental remediation is a very real problem that deserves our concern. I wish the comments in this thread focused more on that. Instead the primary debate is whether a single person with apparently serious symptoms but no expertise, resources, or authority made the right technical call after being ignored by the people with all the expertise, resources, and authority. IMO that is the real story here: a person bought (a) furnishing for (b) a condo on a plot of (c) remediated land, experienced a health crisis, and the relevant parties (that she’s paying rent and taxes to!) all seem to have ghosted her instead of investigating which of those 3 things was the problem. After an experience like that, how could you blame her for doing her best to collect evidence and draw her own conclusions?
Even if the cause she identified is wrong, it’s not imagined. This isn’t “cancer from cell towers” or “migraines from wind turbines”. You just won’t read an article from the victims of industrial pollution in Bayview/Hunter’s Point.
[+] [-] princekolt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iJohnDoe|5 years ago|reply
When you’re sick, a lot of times your home is your safe place. You go home and crawl in bed and try to feel better. Imagine your safe place to feel better is causing you to become even sicker.
[+] [-] xivzgrev|5 years ago|reply
https://www.cpmlegal.com/news-Hunters-Point-Shipyard-homeown...
[+] [-] floatingatoll|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] titanomachy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dehrmann|5 years ago|reply
That's weird, though "copper" could just be from the pipes, and it's probably unrelated to VOCs. The complex should be on city water, and all the pipes are new.
[+] [-] evan_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syntaxing|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://gispub.epa.gov/arcgis/rest/services/OEI/FRS_INTEREST...
[+] [-] m0llusk|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ystad|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spicyramen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walterbell|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raychail10|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spicyramen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] highenergystar|5 years ago|reply