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Successful BBQ pork butt and brisket is science (2018)

238 points| Tomte | 5 years ago |arstechnica.com | reply

150 comments

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[+] somethingtoday|5 years ago|reply
I own several Texas BBQ restaurants. We have a pitmaster but here are the things I know:

1. Not all beef/cattle are created equally. You must start with a high quality brisket. Just because it is a prime grade brisket is not enough. We tasted brisket from many farms and we centered on Creekstone Farms.

2. Not all smokers are created equally. Test the extremes including low-slow (12-15 hours) vs fast-high (8 hours). We found offset is good for low-slow, but gas powered is better for fast-high.

3. Not so secret: you must rest the brisket for 12 hours in a warmer after it is finished cooking. This gets the fat rendered inside, so you can get those grooves / mountains and peaks within the meat. This also achieves the most tender brisket.

4. Before wrapping with butcher paper, we put beef tallow on the brisket. This creates a juicier product for us.

5. Injecting and/or putting brisket slices in broth never worked for us. Instead of tasting like juicy brisket, it tasted like "brisket and broth".

6. We trim a lot to get a more even brisket with consistent height, and use trimmings for other products. Consistent height means your flat lean side won't dry out by the time the fatty point side is cooked.

[+] ineedasername|5 years ago|reply
I own several Texas BBQ restaurants

You, sir, are a hero. mostly for the brisket though, not any of the other stuff. Which brings me to your point #1: You are correct, but leave off an important fact: No matter the grade or source, if properly cooked there is not such thing as a bad brisket. There are merely lower grades of amazing.

My primary complaint about brisket is that somewhere around '07/'08 people started realizing that a properly cooked brisket was the most underrated piece of meat on the market. This drove the prices form $2-$3/lb to north of $8/lb.

[+] scapecast|5 years ago|reply
putting beef tallow on the butcher paper before wrapping has made the round on YouTube recently with Mad Scientist BBQ and also Harry Soo.

In the Mad Scientist BBQ, he suggest to wrap it twice and also put beef tallow into the second wrap. One wrap is to get through the stall, and then a fresh wrap for the rest. Maybe that's worth an additional list item.

For everybody who wants to get going with BBQ, watch these channels:

Mad Scientist BBQ - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCselvHbb5ah0sEqZrFa-7nA - just fantastic video production

Harry Soo - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4dtbTXdvjo272b5x_mxRBw - Harry keeps winning 1st place in all BBQ comps he participates in.

Texicana BBQ - https://www.youtube.com/user/MCglobalvision (he is Aaron Franklin's pitmaster)

[+] koolba|5 years ago|reply
I’m going to try #4 this weekend. From personal experience, everything is better with beef tallow.

How’d you end up on HN and/or how’d you end up in the BBQ game?

[+] samstave|5 years ago|reply
I like the cut of your Jib, and would like to subscribe to your news letter...

1. What factors to look for when seeking "high quality brisket, but also...?"

2. When to use which low /v/ high

3. warmer at what temp? Tented in foil? just an oven? open flame/coals? or special equipment?

6. What do you do with the trim?

Thanks - would love to taste yours...

[+] jfrunyon|5 years ago|reply
Does "Texas BBQ restaurant" describe a BBQ restaurant which is in Texas, or a restaurant serving Texas-style BBQ? If it's the latter, definitely don't trust it ;)
[+] hnick|5 years ago|reply
I have little experience but on #5 I thought the consensus now was that 'juicy' is largely a matter of rendered fat, and water content doesn't really have that much to do with it.
[+] crysin|5 years ago|reply
May be off topic but seeing as you're here... so I just got into smoking last summer and what got me really interested in it was watching Aaron Franklin on the Chef show. I bought some of his books to kind of introduce myself to the art / science but I'm curious where would you point people who are novices at BBQ and looking to build their skills?
[+] glapworth|5 years ago|reply
I would love to get started with Smoking BBQ at home and I’ve been interested for some time. What type of BBQ would be good equipment to get me up and running from a beginner level? I’m in the UK if that helps.
[+] dkdk8283|5 years ago|reply
Can you give me a reference of the temperature for point 3?
[+] Wistar|5 years ago|reply
Fantastic comment. The Creekstone Farms tip alone is gold.

Question: What temp is your warmer? Also, do you leave the brisket wrapped when it is resting in the warmer?

[+] giantg2|5 years ago|reply
"... putting brisket slices in broth ..."

It's sad how many places still do this. I love brisket and this basically ruins it in my opinion.

[+] tbalsam|5 years ago|reply
This is really good advice. And this is just to save this comment for my future brisket-making dreams.
[+] enw|5 years ago|reply
I’m sorry this has nothing to do with your post, but what are you doing on HN?

I’m always so curious when I see the sheer diversity in backgrounds and interests on HN, especially when not directly related to tech.

[+] Wistar|5 years ago|reply
I have done a lot of fussy brisket cooks using a variety of cookers, Hasty-Bake, Komodo, hand-made fire brick wood pit, pellet, Oyler, Cookshack, Memphis and, one sleepless night, I happened across this video from America's Test Kitchen where they use a simple Weber kettle and exactly 108 charcoal briquets and, so, I tried it. You know what? It is really good. They address the evaporative cooling stall and everything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8PE3-p0wNiU

[+] selimthegrim|5 years ago|reply
I did this but did not have a meat thermometer nor did I rest the brisket in a warmer per se or wrap it (for lack of appropriate gloves). 15 hours was good for the point but there were spots in between the point and flat that turned out rarer than I would have liked and the fat didn't render as much as it could have (I used a 16 lb prime brisket and referred to the recent TX Monthly article that talks about the ATK recipe as well)
[+] tptacek|5 years ago|reply
Some people call what ATK is doing there the "snake" method; it's also the principle behind the Slow-N-Sear, which is a charcoal basket with an attached water channel that burns from one side slowly to the other.

I've had much better luck with Weber Kettle techniques than with any other devices, including a BGE, which I think is pretty overrated.

[+] hnick|5 years ago|reply
That looks like way too much charcoal to me, which might explain why I always have heat issues in my kettle! But it gave what looks like a perfect result.

Pity that finding a full brisket, let alone with the fat cap intact, is a hard feat in Australia. And very expensive if you do.

[+] encoderer|5 years ago|reply
Y’all don’t hate me, but you can make totally passable pork butt in a pressure cooker in about an hour. No, it would never stand up to smoked meat, but, an hour.
[+] 0xbadcafebee|5 years ago|reply
As a child of the south, it's a sin to do anything other than dutifully tend a smoker for a day. It's the difference between going fishing and going to the grocery store. Journey not the destination and all that.
[+] ttyprintk|5 years ago|reply
AmazingRibs.com, mentioned in the article, upped my game.
[+] bkjelden|5 years ago|reply
I own maybe a couple dozen cookbooks and Meathead, the book written by the owner of AmazingRibs.com, is probably my favorite.

Both on the website and in his book, he has a real gift for presenting cooking information in a way that is comprehensive yet also very approachable and easy to understand.

[+] oh_sigh|5 years ago|reply
Meathead is the real deal. I didn't give him much credit when I first heard about him due to my own biases(because of the looks of his site and the looks of him), but if you just follow what he says you will have perfectly smoked meats.
[+] deeg|5 years ago|reply
I've been a fan of AR for years now and I use his rub and techniques. I've built my own temperature controller with a RPi so I can sleep soundly on those 24-hour cooks.
[+] guynamedloren|5 years ago|reply
Another upvote for AmazingRibs.com and Meathead. The BBQ pseudoscience debunking is particularly interesting!
[+] bkjelden|5 years ago|reply
For those just starting out, pork butt is _way_ more forgiving than brisket.
[+] crazygringo|5 years ago|reply
This is really excellent to know.

Presumably then, not only will wrapping in foil at the 170°F mark skip the stall, but it will also result in moister meat since you're not losing all that water to evaporation?

Years ago, I figured out that essentially steaming pork ribs and then finishing them at high heat resulted in the juiciest tender ribs I'd ever had. (As well as being much faster.)

I know the concern with wrapping pork and brisket in foil is in not having a bark... but can't that be somewhat alleviated by finishing it off at high temp without foil, once it's hit the desired internal temperature? Or is there something uniquely special about a "slow-cooked" bark that's worth the overall loss in moisture, that high heat can't accomplish?

[+] bgentry|5 years ago|reply
If you wrap brisket with foil, your final product will taste like metallic pot roast. The butcher paper wrap allows some transfer of moisture out and smoke flavor in, and is the best combination.

Most of the “moisture” you notice in the final product is from rendered fat, not water content. Though of course you don’t want the meat to dry out, which is why all long cooks should be accompanied by a water pan.

Brisket bark is not at all the same as the pork rib char you’re referring to; it’s the product of hours of reaction between smoke, salt, pepper, and fat on the surface of the meat. I agree on ribs though, I think the steamed + grill finished rib style outshines most smoked ribs!

[+] 40four|5 years ago|reply
This is an awesome article! I bought a Chargriller smoker last year and finally got into smoking meats. I’ve always loved BBQ and learning how to do it myself has been so fun. It’s a great hobby to get into, I highly recommend.
[+] patagonia|5 years ago|reply
Few people to no person here would be comfortable purchasing a phone knowing people were exploited or harmed in its production. Our ethics did not always encompass labor and human rights when evaluating consumer products. We are just now beginning to widen the scope of our ethics to include the environment. It is reasonable to believe that our ethics will eventually include other sentient creatures, that we share this earth and experience with. Until then, as a vegan it is just weird, and sad, to hear or read stuff like this. Anyhow. Just another perspective.
[+] itisit|5 years ago|reply
> Few people to no person here would be comfortable purchasing a phone knowing people where exploited or harmed in its production.

Millions of people are aware of the exploitative conditions endemic in smartphone factories thanks to the volume of reporting done on the issue over the last decade. If sales are any indication, said millions are quite comfortable in their purchasing decisions.

[+] splitstud|5 years ago|reply
Reasoning about ethics doesn't include locking in a value set for others. That's not ethics. It is coercion.
[+] blparker|5 years ago|reply
I've unfortunately experienced that smoker's anxiety of watching the clock and counting backwards, which takes the fun out of it. After probably thousands of cooks, I've learned to give myself way more time than I need mainly to account for fussy pieces of meat, trimming taking longer than expected, etc. I also tend to cook more forgiving pieces of meat like pork butt. Pork butt is remarkable because you can spend as little or much time prepping it as you want, letting it rest as long as you want, and it still comes out great.
[+] manishsharan|5 years ago|reply
Please don't prosecute me for heresy but I sousvide ribs for 36 hrs and I think the results are better.. melt in your mouth better. I am still working onn getting the crust but the overall meat is just so much better than barbecue.
[+] graycat|5 years ago|reply
BBQed pork? Okay, I'll chip in:

=== Qualifications

From age 5 to 22, I was in Memphis. I was there again from age 30 to 32.

At ballpark 8 ounces of pork BBQ a month, that would be

(1/2) * 12 * 20 = 120

pounds of pork BBQ consumed.

Dad often took me to the annual Winchester-Western gun show with fantastic shooting by Herb Parsons. Also featured was pork BBQ -- paper plates piled high with it, with coleslaw, potato salad, and some bread -- cooked overnight on racks over a temporary dug pit maybe 2 feet deep, 4 feet wide, and 50 yards long with smoldering wood, likely hickory.

With the BBQ contest Memphis in May, Memphis has some claims to significant, competitive pork BBQ expertise.

The Nathan Myhrvold winning efforts at Memphis in May contribute to the level of expertise.

Now I'm in East Tennessee, another area for serious pork BBQ.

And I've cooked my own versions of pork BBQ off and on for over 20 years.

=== Theory

From various readings, there is a theory of "low and slow" meat cooking including BBQ:

Part of the theory is that the meat fibers themselves are always tender. When meat is tough, the cause is collagen. So, to make tough meat tender, melt the collagen, and can do that at 165 F, a temperature that is also commonly regarded as high enough for food safety.

If get the meat fibers much above, say, 180 F for too long, then the fibers will shrink, expel their water, and become dry and brittle, that is, not succulent.

Generally, 212 F for very long is too darned hot. In practice often can get by with cooking meat at 212 F, that is, boiling it, if (A) the meat is quite tender and (B) don't have the meat at 212 F for very long.

So, my best guess is that BBQ is from cooking "low and slow", and the "low" is about 165-170 F, and the "slow" is several hours, until the meat is still juicy and quite tender, i.e., succulent.

=== Most Recent Trial

This HN OP is timely: On

Saturday, April 3rd, 2021

I bought a fresh "boneless pork butt" of 8.9 pounds, $21.72. That piece is also called Boston Butt. It is the shoulder of the hog.

I have a rack of stainless steel wires that can be adjusted to the shape of a V and a rectangular covered granite toasting pan

19.5 x 12.88 x 7"

=== Cooking

So, I put the pork on the V rack in the bottom of the roaster, inserted a meat thermometer into the pork, put on the top of the roaster, and placed the whole assembly into a pre-heated 225 F oven.

At 2.5 hours later the meat thermometer read 165 F. Then I reduced the oven temperature to 170 F and cooked for another 8 hours.

Then it appeared that the meat was quite tender and the fat, collagen, and water were in the bottom of the roasting pan.

=== Chopping

East Tennessee pork shoulder BBQ is pulled pork as mentioned in the OP. Here the fibers of the pork are separated via pulling with, say, two forks.

In West Tennessee, e.g., Memphis when I was there, the pork is coarsely chopped.

So, with a cooking fork and a cooking spoon, I moved the chunks of the pork one at a time to my cutting board and used a French chef's knife with a 12" long blade to coarsely chop the pork and used a spatula to shovel it into two covered plastic containers, each with 2 quarts of volume.

=== Yield

The weight of the final BBQ was

2,205 grams

and the volume, loosely packed, was about 4 quarts.

The raw weight of the pork was

8.09 * 16 * 28.3495 = 3,670 grams

so that the yield was

100 * 2,205 / 3,670 = 60.1%

which is surprisingly high.

The bottom of the roasting pan had about 1.5 quarts of liquid with about 5 fluid ounces of fat. Chilled, the fat did not become solid, and the liquid did not gel.

=== Cost per Serving

A generous serving of the BBQ is 8 ounces or

8 * 28.3495 = 227 grams

so that the total cooked weight of

2,205 grams

has

2,205 / 227 = 9.7

servings for

21.72 / 9.7 = $2.24

per serving.

=== Serving

In the cooking I added no salt, pepper, BBQ rubs, or other seasonings.

For serving, I warm in a microwave oven and add some bottle BBQ sauce and some bottled hot sauce.

=== Changes

(1) The boneless pork butt -- from the cutting to remove the bone -- had the meat falling apart in several pieces. In the future, I will buy only the bone-in version and cook it with the bone in.

(2) The 8 hours at 170 F may be too long -- shorter cooking might yield meat that is just as tender but more succulent, i.e., more moist.

(3) Generally I prefer to do pork BBQ cooking with a picnic pork shoulder. That cut is really from a front arm, has the elbow joint inside, and is usually sold with some of the skin still attached. With this cut, the meat may remain more moist as it melts out its collagen.

=== Extras

I have plans to do beef stew starting, NOT with relatively tender and expensive beef chuck roast but, with, say, beef bottom round roast. And I hope to save money by stepping down from USDA Prime and Choice to USDA Select or Cutters and Canners.

Retired dairy cows might be a good source, and once I called around to some packing houses and asked what happens to such cows. The short answer was "think fast food". The offer was to buy boxes of 50 pounds at a time! Maybe someday I will and have beef stew for family and friends for months!

A. Escoffier has a remark that the beef from older animals has better flavor. So, US fast food is getting the beef with the better flavor!

So, right, I intend to cook the beef at 165-170 F and NEVER let the stewing liquid boil (as long as the beef is in that liquid -- boiling later to reduce the volume to concentrate and strengthen flavors, sure).

Put the pot of stew in an oven at 350 F, or 225 F? Let the meat "simmer"? NOT a chance! Instead, 165-170 F and NO MORE.

Pork BBQ is often served with coleslaw. My recipe is to shred a head of green cabbage and then soak the result to desired wetness with just bottled Ranch salad dressing.

[+] tptacek|5 years ago|reply
Cooking meat in a pot of 212F water is boiling it, because water is an excellent conductor of heat. Cooking meat in a 212F grill is barely cooking at all, because air is not. 225-240F is the "low" end of "low and slow" in a smoker setup.
[+] dev_tty01|5 years ago|reply
Agreed except for chopping. Shudder. Pulled pork done right is phenomenal. We used to scrape it off the pig while it was still on the spit. Then the cook would run us off...
[+] Ansil849|5 years ago|reply
This is a lazy headline. What physical process 'isn't science'?
[+] jfrunyon|5 years ago|reply
1) Given that "science" means knowledge, anything successful is science. 2) Given that "science" describes a fact-, logic-based approach to doing things, anything following such an approach is science.
[+] swayvil|5 years ago|reply
This works for human too. Just saying.
[+] yboris|5 years ago|reply

[deleted]

[+] stickfigure|5 years ago|reply
Unlike gasoline, meat is delicious.
[+] calkuta|5 years ago|reply
I look forward to a future where casual discussions of the consumption of the tormented flesh of conscious beings are not normal.
[+] dev_tty01|5 years ago|reply
Ok, I'll take the bait. Done right there is no torment. My 1/2 dozen cows are grass fed and have a life of blissful grazing and laying under the shade trees chewing their cud. They have one bad moment before they start the transition to the freezers of myself and my friends.

Second, the natural (and normal) world is full of predators that eat meat. Consuming other animals is one of the more normal things we do. Certainly a lot more normal than standing around typing into this phone.

I will certainly agree however that large scale meat processing needs reform in some of its practices. I won't argue that.