I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.
I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.
Its interesting that we have created a world where the people who build software are often the most skeptical of and aviodant of the software industry.
The problem is that you're not going to have this choice. You'll be that guy insisting he wants a phone that's thicker but has better battery life - no manufacturer cares what you want because they have to operate at a scale where they can't cater for niches.
>If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio...
Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.
The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying.
...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.
Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.
The microwave analogy is tricky, because those are generally not worth repairing (or even doing routine maintenance to prolong life) and are cheap and reliable enough that you wouldn’t want to pay a subscription for them unless it was a very cheap subscription. I’d love to have that situation for a car, but I don’t think it’s realistic without moving to a subscription model.
> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.
I know it’s what you want but is it preventable? What’s the difference when today there are LED screens across the intersection you are trying to navigate that are intensely bright and displaying moving images? I’d argue that dimmer images in the car would be less distracting.
However we appear on track to get both these dismal options.
I won’t be buying a car with build in advertising, but given the frequency I change cars, this isn’t really any change.
> The dealer, United Traders, bought the car directly from Tesla at an auction on November 15, 2019. At the time of that auction sale, the Model S had Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability options installed, which the original owner had paid a combined $8,000 for, as listed on the Monroney that Tesla gave the dealer. On November 18, Tesla ran an audit of the software in its vehicles, including the Model S now owned by the dealership, and removed Enhanced Autopilot. The automaker did not inform the dealer of the changes to the Model S, so the dealer sold the sedan to Alec on December 20 believing the car contained what was on the Monroney.
Precisely because it's so critical, it's a terribly efficient leverage over you, pretty much legalized extortion. Imagine you wake up one morning and your car happily announces that it's updated software overnight and from now on for your safety faceid is required to start the car and an always on driver facing camera will help you to stay focused on the road and arrive safely at your destination no matter where it is. Ah, also, by touching the door handle you agree to the new terms of service. The thing is you have an important appointment in 30 mins.
You gotta start small. Boycott. Do not buy cars from companies that do this. Even if they allow you to opt out or they have offerings without these “features”.
Then tell your friends and family about it. Hopefully, at least one or two of them will understand or agree. Even if nobody follows your example, you’ve planted the idea in their heads.
If you have a blog or social media, write about this. Again, it’s unlikely people will change their minds only because of you, but this will plant the seed of doubt.
Over time, this might become big enough to be a political issue. If it affects the driver’s privacy an the car’s safety it definitely can. Then it’s time to call your representatives.
A friend of mine bought new BMW and the whole thing just shut down half way into the journey, he said he was happy he could get out of it. The more complexity the higher the chance of failure.
If you're like me you just want a car that get's you from point A to point B reliably and safely. You're probably thinking they will always be an option for a straightforward mechanical machine.
But that may not be the case. Regulators are increasing demands for more and more electronics and a lot of that is driven (I assume) by car industry lobby.
Essentially, the best thing a car industry can achieve is to turn your car into a computer or iphone. This way they can release new models every year and increase the the pressure to buy more.
Right now a 20yo car is still good to drive around and not that much has improved, but what are you going to do it the new software update is no longer compatible with your car? :)
And obviously, more higher complexity.higher failure means more profits on component sales.
The only thing that constantly improves and is really worth considering is safety. I am not even saying about active safety features but the passive ones. They are also in constant development.
>A friend of mine bought new BMW and the whole thing just shut down half way into the journey, he said he was happy he could get out of it.
That's more o an issue of the big German car manufacturers having outsourced their HW and SW development to suppliers who compete on cost so UX was never in the budget.
Still, I do prefer having physical switches for the critical functions of a car regardless of how polished the touch UX is.
It is not the complexity at fault, it's BMW cutting corners hitting quality. Even assuming the higher complexity part, there is no reason a software nice-to-have like navigation to make your entire car unusable, if you keep the ECU separate from the rest of the car it will still drive.
It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems.
For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story.
Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion.
IMO the right to repair movement is our best defense against this sort of rent seeking. You can't repair and maintain anything yourself if a subscription is required.
Living in a city and having street-parked "rent-a-car" vehicles for infrequent trips while using trains to get to work is an incredible lifestyle.
I went camping recently, so I rented a 4x4 for a few days. I needed to pick up family from the airport, I'll just rent a car for a few hours. Want to go for a hike up north, rent a car for a day.
All I have to do is Lime-style, book one on the app, tap my car on the windshield to unlock and it's mine.
Parking? No problem, the government has designated parking spots for rideshare vehicles.
It could be cheaper, but with my frequency of use, it's cheaper than owning a car.
In my city I have lived through multiple waves of this model.
The main drawback is that it requires a bit of planning: on the weekends, everybody wants a car.
I can count with one finger the companies that have survived multiple waves of this model over the last 15 years. They have "poor" cars, but enough of them, parked in "centralized" locations to ease maintainance, but enough of these locations spread out, great prices for a day, a weekend, etc.
Most other companies that tried this have ended up defaulting the moment they had to repair their first wave of cars.
The ones that still "survive" have gone through defaults, mergers, and have "infinite" amounts of money (e.g. owned by car manufacturers that use them as a way to get people "try" their cars as opposed to a "profitable" business). These are kind of "gimmicks" that you use when you pick somebody from the airport to show them around in a nice car. For everyday stuff, these are expensive enough for competing with Uber, and at that point, I just take a Uber. For one day trips they are also expensive enough that, if you take 3 days per month, owning a cheap car is actually cheaper and more practical than using these....
This. Wife and I sold both our cars and moved to Oslo. We can get almost anywhere with public transportation and rent a car/van when we need to move stuff or get away to the cabin.
For this to work you need a pretty good public transportation system. In the US for example, I don't know of any city other than NYC that have that kind of infrastructure.
Good solution if one doesn't care at all about cars they drive. I could save 500€ a month with this solution but I'd much rather drive a 20l/100km V8 than a sweaty public ecobox.
For what it's worth, my 2012 Chevy Volt had a subscription plan for starting my car via a phone app. So the subscription model has already been present for some years. What will be offered via subscription will drastically change however.
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to avoid purchasing, and therefore tying myself to, 'connected' platforms. I recently decided to purchase a new washing machine. It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. I know from other discussions on this forum around so-called 'smart' televisions[1][2] that simply not connecting the device to your home wi-fi network, or implementing DNS filtering measures such as a PiHole, may not be effective ways to restrict the access of these devices. Not to mention the various security implications of giving these devices access to your network.
The idea of a car having the same connectivity is just a minefield of privacy, security and generally anti-consumer issues. I am not optimistic either that pushback against such concerns will force manufacturers to amend these practices.
I think legislation is the only way to fix this :(
Require owner's/user's consent to connect. If no consent, no connect. Device's offline capabilities must still work and it must not nag you or otherwise use dark patterns to force a consent out of you.
That would be a relatively minor extension to gdpr.
You think this is interesting, wait until the CEO of your car subscription company wakes up in a bad mood and decides to "cancel" your car. That whole "In the future, you will own nothing and you will be happy" thing is going to keep you gloriously in-line and silent when not.
Now is the right time to buy a pre internet car and relevant consumables (belts, alternator, starter etc) of your choice before this becomes an issue.
So long as you keep the suspension in good shape, and maintain the drive train properly you will be in good shape to avoid the rentier surveillance culture looming.
I de-computered my older mechanical
diesel,led lights all round,modifications to the wireing
and removed the alternator and added solar panels.
And there are no beeps in my house,
mostly older equipment.
Also have managed my online life by
going wireless with two phones,#1
has lots of data and is de-guggled
doesnt send or recieve texts and has no social media,etc.
#2 has no data and is wide open ,accessing the internet by wifi
from phone number 1
The idea of a car that beeps and wimpers and whines for handouts gives me the cold grue and shudders.
I own my cellphone, because it doesn't run iOS or Android.
I own my TV, because the house's DNS is forced through pihole and the apps can't upgrade unless I want them to.
I own my car, because it's the kind with no touch screen, no untouchable black box running it. (I miss my first car, released the same year as the C64.)
Those EULAs are not legally binding in the EU. You do own you cellphone and TV (and apps, movies and music files if the button said Buy). If the US goes down this route the car industry will crash (even more).
Imagine the fun when you give gas and the display shows that your subscription can only reach 100km/h, if you want to go faster, please subscribe to the PRO subscription :)
This is/was inevitable. I really think that we will be able to buy a car whose basic features can be locked/unlocked on subscription, and I am not talking about fancy features, but basic ones like speed, types of brakes, etc. It might not be a bad idea to reduce the price of a car considering you produce only one type and customize it at "runtime". And BTW, it's somehow already the case. I bought a Ford with 100 HP and the seller told me that with "some external help" I can get up to 125HP because the engine is the same as the one for the 125HP model. I was like "what the hell?". Of course the downside is that if you get into a bad accident and the insurance finds out, you're on your own. But that's another story.
A pay as you go model would also be fun. The more you press the pedals the more you pay:)
Software updates require approval in the EU just like hardware changes if it significantly changes the car. Tesla is already on thin (or rather close to nonexistent) ice by just updating. This won't be allowed in the EU unless new laws are made (and I personally doubt it will be allowed and good riddance!).
[+] [-] obviouslynotme|4 years ago|reply
I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.
[+] [-] Hammershaft|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Traster|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dghughes|4 years ago|reply
Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.
[+] [-] userbinator|4 years ago|reply
The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying.
...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.
[+] [-] sz4kerto|4 years ago|reply
Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.
[+] [-] chrischen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] o-__-o|4 years ago|reply
Every bmw, Mercedes Benz, and every luxury car does this today. Millions of them on the road.
And it doesn’t brick the car, just anything in the path of the unapproved device (which guess where your radio sits)
But this is to avoid fake parts from being installed in your car.. so catch 22?
[+] [-] jjav|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|4 years ago|reply
Services grafted on to various appliances and consumer articles are going to be the norm unless we push back. Hard.
[+] [-] marsven_422|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] radioooooo|4 years ago|reply
LMAO! OK, who's gonna tell him about the ads on the radio?
[+] [-] tshaddox|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lostlogin|4 years ago|reply
I know it’s what you want but is it preventable? What’s the difference when today there are LED screens across the intersection you are trying to navigate that are intensely bright and displaying moving images? I’d argue that dimmer images in the car would be less distracting. However we appear on track to get both these dismal options. I won’t be buying a car with build in advertising, but given the frequency I change cars, this isn’t really any change.
[+] [-] alwayshumans|4 years ago|reply
Looking at the uproar from moves by Circut[1] and others makes me question how out of touch some of these companies are.
I think companies need to realise a subscription needs to deliver constant tangible value to the consumer.
1.https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow...
[+] [-] crooked-v|4 years ago|reply
> The dealer, United Traders, bought the car directly from Tesla at an auction on November 15, 2019. At the time of that auction sale, the Model S had Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability options installed, which the original owner had paid a combined $8,000 for, as listed on the Monroney that Tesla gave the dealer. On November 18, Tesla ran an audit of the software in its vehicles, including the Model S now owned by the dealership, and removed Enhanced Autopilot. The automaker did not inform the dealer of the changes to the Model S, so the dealer sold the sedan to Alec on December 20 believing the car contained what was on the Monroney.
[+] [-] fouric|4 years ago|reply
Music and TV subscriptions? Not great (I want to buy something once and own it), but at least those are luxury purchases.
Cars? Not ok - that's critical for me (and many others) to get to my job (bad public transit in the area), groceries, etc.
> “You can easily see a major backlash to all this,” said Gartner analyst Michael Ramsay.
I wonder how one can maximize that potential backlash, so as to cut this terrible idea off as soon as possible.
[+] [-] akomtu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bozzcl|4 years ago|reply
Then tell your friends and family about it. Hopefully, at least one or two of them will understand or agree. Even if nobody follows your example, you’ve planted the idea in their heads.
If you have a blog or social media, write about this. Again, it’s unlikely people will change their minds only because of you, but this will plant the seed of doubt.
Over time, this might become big enough to be a political issue. If it affects the driver’s privacy an the car’s safety it definitely can. Then it’s time to call your representatives.
[+] [-] michalu|4 years ago|reply
If you're like me you just want a car that get's you from point A to point B reliably and safely. You're probably thinking they will always be an option for a straightforward mechanical machine.
But that may not be the case. Regulators are increasing demands for more and more electronics and a lot of that is driven (I assume) by car industry lobby.
Essentially, the best thing a car industry can achieve is to turn your car into a computer or iphone. This way they can release new models every year and increase the the pressure to buy more.
Right now a 20yo car is still good to drive around and not that much has improved, but what are you going to do it the new software update is no longer compatible with your car? :)
And obviously, more higher complexity.higher failure means more profits on component sales.
[+] [-] excuses_|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckNorris89|4 years ago|reply
That's more o an issue of the big German car manufacturers having outsourced their HW and SW development to suppliers who compete on cost so UX was never in the budget.
Still, I do prefer having physical switches for the critical functions of a car regardless of how polished the touch UX is.
[+] [-] AdrianB1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benhurmarcel|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thesuperbigfrog|4 years ago|reply
For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story.
Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion.
Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been happening with John Deere tractors: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-...
[+] [-] kwyjobojoe|4 years ago|reply
There have already been examples where hire cars are stuck in parking garages because of no signal to reach their servers.
[+] [-] eikenberry|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] apatheticonion|4 years ago|reply
I went camping recently, so I rented a 4x4 for a few days. I needed to pick up family from the airport, I'll just rent a car for a few hours. Want to go for a hike up north, rent a car for a day.
All I have to do is Lime-style, book one on the app, tap my car on the windshield to unlock and it's mine.
Parking? No problem, the government has designated parking spots for rideshare vehicles.
It could be cheaper, but with my frequency of use, it's cheaper than owning a car.
[+] [-] volta83|4 years ago|reply
The main drawback is that it requires a bit of planning: on the weekends, everybody wants a car.
I can count with one finger the companies that have survived multiple waves of this model over the last 15 years. They have "poor" cars, but enough of them, parked in "centralized" locations to ease maintainance, but enough of these locations spread out, great prices for a day, a weekend, etc.
Most other companies that tried this have ended up defaulting the moment they had to repair their first wave of cars.
The ones that still "survive" have gone through defaults, mergers, and have "infinite" amounts of money (e.g. owned by car manufacturers that use them as a way to get people "try" their cars as opposed to a "profitable" business). These are kind of "gimmicks" that you use when you pick somebody from the airport to show them around in a nice car. For everyday stuff, these are expensive enough for competing with Uber, and at that point, I just take a Uber. For one day trips they are also expensive enough that, if you take 3 days per month, owning a cheap car is actually cheaper and more practical than using these....
[+] [-] adreamingsoul|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xuki|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k4rli|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whoisthemachine|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] livinginfear|4 years ago|reply
The idea of a car having the same connectivity is just a minefield of privacy, security and generally anti-consumer issues. I am not optimistic either that pushback against such concerns will force manufacturers to amend these practices.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480
[+] [-] benhurmarcel|4 years ago|reply
As long as you don’t have to connect it… I couldn’t find a decent toothbrush that didn’t have Bluetooth, but it doesn’t matter, I just ignore it.
[+] [-] thraway123412|4 years ago|reply
Require owner's/user's consent to connect. If no consent, no connect. Device's offline capabilities must still work and it must not nag you or otherwise use dark patterns to force a consent out of you.
That would be a relatively minor extension to gdpr.
[+] [-] teeray|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] at_a_remove|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olivermarks|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GoToRO|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] GoOnThenDoTell|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] metalman|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcodiego|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Krisjohn|4 years ago|reply
I own my TV, because the house's DNS is forced through pihole and the apps can't upgrade unless I want them to.
I own my car, because it's the kind with no touch screen, no untouchable black box running it. (I miss my first car, released the same year as the C64.)
[+] [-] Dah00n|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hexo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slackfan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mk89|4 years ago|reply
This is/was inevitable. I really think that we will be able to buy a car whose basic features can be locked/unlocked on subscription, and I am not talking about fancy features, but basic ones like speed, types of brakes, etc. It might not be a bad idea to reduce the price of a car considering you produce only one type and customize it at "runtime". And BTW, it's somehow already the case. I bought a Ford with 100 HP and the seller told me that with "some external help" I can get up to 125HP because the engine is the same as the one for the 125HP model. I was like "what the hell?". Of course the downside is that if you get into a bad accident and the insurance finds out, you're on your own. But that's another story.
A pay as you go model would also be fun. The more you press the pedals the more you pay:)
[+] [-] Dah00n|4 years ago|reply