While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers:
- The texture is off
- Maybe they cook strangely
- Potentially less taste
But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals.
This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible.
Maybe you think the burger tastes different, or has a strange texture, but I certainly won't try to argue that because it doesn't matter. No one needed to die for you to eat it.
> Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals.
I find this interesting, in that cropping has plenty of violent against animals but one step removed.
I have a small cattle property, we run on hill country with diversified ecosystem, mixed grass and bushland. We have a heap of native animals living across the property. And at the end of the day the steers do get sent of for slaughter after 18 to 24 months + we kill feral pigs when they get in large numbers.
While cropping properties they tend to be monoculture, very little native animal presence. The spray like buggery wiping out insects with all that flow on effect (and to be fair we spray too, herbicide only and never pesticides and far less frequently). Also the cropping properties tend to shoot 'pests' heavily. We don't mind a few kangaroos and ducks type thing about but cropping properties are very serious about deterring and killing anything that hits their property.
And to be clear, I'm not having a go at you. I admire vegetarians for their genuinely caring moral position, and my family actually try to do more vegetarians meals. While at the same time I'm not sure plant based options are so devoid of killing, only the end product is one step removed.
> This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible.
The problem I have with this argument is that it always seems to me to focus on the life of the animal, but not on the death of the animal.
All animals eventually die, and most natural deaths are far more horrifying than how we slaughter animals, especially in modern times (though even traditional slaughter is nothing compared to starving to death, being eaten alive by insects, being hunted and terrified by a predator etc).
So, I think that it is important how the animals are grown (factory farms are absolutely horrible, unacceptable places to live in, and should ideally become illegal sooner rather than later, regardless of the consequences on the price of food). But I really don't think there is any reason to feel bad about the slaughter of animals who have led a decent life, even if it may be shorter than they would expect in nature (the huge proliferation of their species is kind of payment for that, in a way).
I really enjoy both BeyondBeef and Impossible Burger.
My thoughts are that BeyondBeef has a kind of plastic-y smell, but is almost exactly right in terms of color and texture.
The smell is not concerning to me, but it is distinct for my palette. I still eat it, and don't mind. Aside from the burgers, I also really enjoy the spicy Italian sausages. There is a slightly different taste than pork-based sausages, but I would never complain about a Beyond Meat spicy sausage in my Italian food. The sweet Italian version tastes almost like a breakfast sausage to me.
For Impossible Burgers, I feel like the taste is virtually 100%. I don't actually know, if I were eating an impossible burger on a bun with the fixings, if I could tell you it was an impossible burger. The only thing they would lose on is the texture and maybe the color. The texture is more... chipped(?) than ground beef, so looking at a patty (probably easier with an 8oz than a 4oz) is pretty obvious, but man, the flavor is great.
Like I said, I eat either one of them as my first choice whenever they're sold at a restaurant.
While I sympathise with the argument, I think that it's a mistake to push this aspect front and centre.
There's a whole lot of people out there who simply like eating meat, and that it means killing an animal is not particularly a problem.
The people I've spoken to about Beyond/Impossible and similar fake-meats all tend to think of it as something for vegans/vegetarians, because that's how this type of product has been presented for decades.
"Oh, you're having a BBQ? Fred's partner is a veggo, better chuck on some mushroom burgers or something"
It's a tough push to convince people that this isn't meant for vegans/vegetarians wanting meat, but a product for meat-eaters wanting to reduce their meat intake, but not necessarily wanting to give up their ability to have meals that taste like what they're used to.
Pushing from that angle, I would argue, is likely to have a bigger impact than saying "Think of the poor cow that had to get murdered for your burger!".
For my part, I enjoy fast food burgers (think Wendy's, Burger King, etc...). These burger patties are not exactly rare Kobe beef. Once you put that thing on a bun, add cheese, slather it in sauce, etc... I don't find the difference in the patties very noticeable. I notice how fresh the lettuce is more than the patty.
I eat plenty of meat, so I don't have an anti-meat agenda. But, for me, for fast food burgers, I may as well choose a less environmentally damaging, and yes, more animal friendly, alternative, because it hardly makes a difference.
I guess the difference would be though, that without the demand for meat, those cows would likely never have lived at all. 99%+ of all cows alive are used for human agriculture.
From the perspective of any living creature, I generally think of existence as a positive good versus non-existence. I know I certainly would rather come to a violent death at a young age than have never been born at all.
I think there's a plausible argument that modern factory farming is so horrific that it's worse than non-existence. But a cow raised with a decent quality of life, and slaughtered humanely for its meat does not seem worse for animal welfare than eliminating the entire existence of the cow.
(Of course I realize there's ecological and health arguments for giving up meat, but purely talking along the dimension of animal welfare.)
I ended up becoming vegetarian for a while due to some video that was released years ago of factory farm workers abusing animals. I found myself unable to eat meat without bursting into tears.
In time, and in part due to how complicated this ecosystem actually is (as explained by a few other replies here) I ended up settling on eating vegetarian “most of the time” and buying meat sourced from ethical places with better conditions when I do.
But it was surprising to me how threatened most people were when I was strictly vegetarian.
I won’t turn this into a political debate with my theories why, but nonetheless most of my circle of friends are animal lovers and I would have expected some degree of empathy with my cause, but most of them acted like I was personally going to sneak into their house and steal all their meat from them.
That said, I continue to have a great appreciation for the industry of meatless meat.
Although at this point, IMO, Impossible Burger is the gold standard, and after trying it once, eating any other burger (including Beyond) just doesn’t cut it.
Irish person here with a couple of random facts:
- Ireland is one of the larger per-capita beef producing countries
- Beef lobby is quite powerful
- Our local Chipper / Take Away / "Fish & Chips" shop sells Beyond Meat burgers
- As a meat eater who grew up on a beef farm, I can say they look and taste amazingly good... 95% as good as a real burger.
Most cattle are treated well in Ireland, living outside on fresh grass (live exports aside). My main concerns are global resource depletion, biodiversity, deforestation and climate change.
We're beginning to see a real sea change in this meat eating country, meat-free products are popping up everywhere and not just marketed at vegans / hipsters.
This is probably not a popular opinion, but less environmental impact is actually more desirable to me than "no violence against animals". As far as I understand it, these sort of "animal protection" slogans only serve to make human beings feel better about ourselves, and as such could easily make us forgive (and forget) the massive amount of resources we consumed if not depleted on this earth. Simply by supplying for this huge amount of population, we have taketh away the right of other animal's possibility to have a thriving population. The human race thrived on a bloody ground, and we need to recognize that.
The Beyond Beef burgers that my local burger chain (Grill’d) sell are pretty good, too. They’re a little drier than a good beef patty and a bit sweeter, but if you told me it was beef I think I would believe you, albeit not cooked perfectly.
My understanding is that popular opinion says Impossible is even closer, though I haven’t tried it personally.
> but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible.
You know that plants are also living, feeling beings? Though not sure about being individual but that's highly subjective.
The cycle of life is that some trees harvest the sun, and then it's a fish-eat-fish kinda world.
Vegan meat is not important because it doesn't kill animals (it'll kill plants, and hence this is purely emotional/subjective). But because it could be very sustainable. There is a reason why Japanese eat vegetables, fish and pork. They have a large population on a tight island. They have to do otherwise. (they also drive very small compact cars/mini-vans).
I agree with you, that is especially the case for burgers that are usually not made of particularly refined meat. I’m still "old style" and enjoy a piece of steak but less than once a week. I still need to cut down on ham… decrease in meat consumption is rational. It’s mostly a matter of habit, and people hate changing those.
I do have one valid complaint with Beyond Burgers. I am a fan of meat. I like meat. I love a good cheese burger.
And Beyond Burgers actually taste fine. Not amazing, not “just like beef” but not bad. I can eat a Beyond Burger and feel satisfied.
My problem with Beyond Burgers or Beyond products as a whole is that they STINK! Bad! When cooking. I don’t know why but cooking a beyond burger stinks up my kitchen worse than my cats litter box freshly pooped in.
> But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals.
In my opinion, the most important thing is that it is considerably better for the environment due to the reduction in emissions, water and land. Don't get me wrong, no violence against animals is a benefit too, but to me it's not the number one reason to try imitation meat.
I have indeed tried them, and they aren't as nice as a real beef burger in my opinion. And as a predatory animal, the fact that something "needs to die" for me to feed doesn't factor into the equation. (Of course, you can certainly reduce cruelty if you move away from a US-style factory farming model).
Looking forward to seeing how the technology develops, but yeah. It hasn't changed my habits yet.
A funny anecdote: my wife and I have removed most meat (apart from occasional fish) from our diets for a variety of reasons (health concerns, sustainability, and animal cruelty).
Do you know which concern resonates most with my 10 year old daughter? Absolutely none of them. She is aware of the issues, and appears to be a conscientious person in the abstract, but when confronted with the option of eating an animal in the moment she simply doesn't care at all.
Are adults more empathetic? Maybe. But fundamentally I think that by the time something makes it to your plate, it's simply too far removed from where it came from for any of these considerations to resonate with most people.
We've considered trying to show her Okja [0] to see if it has any effect on her perspective. I know it was at least partially instrumental in causing me to reconsider factory farming.
> This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible.
When I was about fifteen it occurred to me that while that's true, those animals wouldn't be alive at all without us raising them for food. So it seems to me that the goal should be raising them in good conditions without cruelty. At least to my way of thinking, as someone grateful to my parents that I exist, that's better than no life at all.
There are plenty of other solid reasons to eat less meat, but this argument never worked for me.
I actually like the beyond burgers. If they weren't more expensive than a beef burger, I'd eat them.
I'm generally surprised no one brings up the negative health benefits of processed foods. It is not healthier to get rid of meat only to replace it with high salt chemically processed food that tastes like meat.
It seems like we are going backwards.
You know what uses less greenhouse emissions, less water and less land? The orginal plant based food that gets processed into a beyond burger.
If you really care about the planet why are you buying processed anything? That get's shipped nationwide / worldwide that creates factories, chemical waste, greenhouse gases. Buying locally and growing locally really helps the planet. Going to burger king and getting an absolute burger instead of a whooper is just pretending.
All food is processed. Cows are genetically engineered. There's no reason to be afraid of simple chemistry. Cranks like Michael Polian have made a fortune selling FUD with no science. Just read a label. Boxed food with a ton of salt and sugar is probably not good for you whether it's corn syrup or agave nectar. Similarly, boxed fiber and protein is perfectly fine. Buying locally is not scalable and fails to take advantage of the climate advantage of different geographies.
Thanks, this is the most underrated answer. Selling processed food as one solution to climate change is genius marketing BS but still just BS. It reminds me of Soylent, Juicero and the like.
If you care about the environment, your health and animal well being then just eat less animal product (you need some anyway), buy only local food (local meat) and above all stop wasting so much of it.
Just a few decades ago people knew what they were eating, no processed food in any way. They were raising their livestock in their yard, they knew their single sheep / pork / cow and poultry and respected them. At some point you need to eat and kill them, people getting shocked by this have just become brainwashed or oversensitive. Go spend some time in Africa, Asia or Eastern Europe, they're laughing at this nonsense trend.
>If you really care about the planet why are you buying processed anything?
If I'm really going to be dead within 100 years, why am I doing anything?
Lots of reasons, but the easiest is because it's more enjoyable than the alternative. Who cares if a plant burger is heavily-processed? I like it and I don't have to think about whatever died to bring me my meal.
Yes, it would be better if I grew my own lentils and only ate homemade dal. But that's not realistic for most people, and from a health and environmental perspective, it seems like it's hard to do worse than red meat.
Seed oils are toxic. These fake "meats" are the some of the worst processed foods around. It's sad people are being duped once again by the food industry and medical establishment. This will only further worsen the awful health of the population.
You seem to throw all food processing into the same pot, so to speak. Humans have an under-developed digestion system. Why? Because they can pre-process their foods to compensate. They know that some plants are poisonous unless cooked, for example.
And obviously, few food-processing factories or bulk shipping methods of ingredients cause enough greenhouse gasses that you can just eat local meat instead, if you care about your footprint. Saying that none of this is solving a real problem is wishful thinking.
About once a month I have a huge craving for a burger, so I’ll eat a Beyond burger. It’s worse than eating veggies but it helps keep me vegetarian. Without it, I’d probably eat a real burger to satiate my meat craving. Since I’m an all-or-nothing person (major personality flaw), eating meat once a month would turn into a slippery slope. Beyond meat helps to keep me on the vegetarian straight and narrow
Health is not the reason these products exist. I buy them because I want an unhealthy treat that doesn't have the same ecological or animal rights impacts as beef.
If 10% of whopper sales switch to impossible whoppers, that's a big deal, and foods like this can provide a bridge to consumers who have never considered vegetarianism.
I do buy or grow local food, I'm a vegetarian myself. Your view is, in my opinion, too black and white. There's serious momentum around plant based meals, and that's making even more plant based foods available elsewhere.
I think this is a counterproductive view. Gas turbines are bad for greenhouse gas emissions, but the fact is that gas turbines have displaced coal generators in many places in the US reducing net emissions.
Are gas turbines a part of a zero emissions electricity grid? No of course not. But are they an improvment on what's happening today? In some cases yes.
Ultimately you're right, eating locally grown plant based diets would be better for an individual, but you're also wrong because the beyond burger is a hell of a lot better than the food it's replacing in most cases.
I am an avid meat-lover but it does play on my conscience that I am in fact eating a former sentient being and potentially contributing to environmental devastation.
I would appreciate answers to the following two, albeit simplistic questions that always plaque me when I consider stopping eating meat products:
1) Is it really unethical to eat animals when the natural trajectory of most animals lives was likely to be eaten by other animals or die some horrendous death in their natural environment? Isn't it better for an animal to live its best life on a free range farm being grass fed, then get quickly and humanely slaughtered?
2)If I made a personal decision to stop eating meat, would there be any significant impact at all on the overall environment realistically? For example, I recently watched the documentary Seaspiracy which showed the negative effects of commercial fishing. However, the reality is that me (not) eating a bowl of sashimi once a week makes no difference in the context of, say, countries like Japan slaughtering millions of fish daily (regardless of any change in behavior on my part or my small circle of influence)?
The local burger joint closest to my house is 100% vegan and uses Beyond patties. It’s also, in my opinion, the best burger in town.
I’m a carnivore and would definitely notice the difference in a Pepsi challenge of the patties themselves, but the overall taste and presentation make this place pull ahead of all the meat-based alternatives.
I feel like we’ve crossed a threshold. This was literal sci-fi just a couple of years ago.
This is a phenomenon that all too often suffers from the distaste of ruinous empathy [1] and moral superiority. I personally don't care why/how [you] _feel_ about this product. Stories about morality and feelings in the alt food market are insufferable and immediately invoke an epic eye roll. I care about what I eat in this order:
1. Is it healthy?
2. Does it taste good?
3. Is it sustainable?
Fake meat, at this point, barely meets #1, absolutely gets nowhere close to fulfilling #2 for my taste, and seems to fulfill #3. But it tastes like hot garbage compared to actual meat. I'll wait for lab-grown muscle to reach maturity. My taste buds and macros matter more in the meantime.
100% junk food. These are mostly highly refined oils. All the unhealthy side effects with none of the nutrition, densely packed into real meat.
If you want to be meat free, eat vegetables. Portabella burgers are deoicious, as is grilled eggplant, zuccini, etc. All healthy for you.
The fake meat trend makes us all more unhealthy. If you have issues with meat, work on addressinf the big farm, big ranch industry which needs their agg gag protections and subcidies immediately removed.
Honestly flabbergasted by the amount of ignorance in this thread, it was definitely not what I expected from the Hacker News crowd.
- Cattle does not eat soy byproducts and soy production is definitely not driven by human consumption. Not by value, not by mass. [1]
- Bison herds did not produce as much methane as today's cattle. [2]
- Cattle does not strictly use land unsuitable for growing crops. Also, this completely ignores any other unwanted effects of having too much cattle (in one area). [3]
- Meat is not always healthier than "processed foods", whatever the latter may actually mean.
When looking for facts on any of this, try to look for scientific papers instead of videos or blogs and do look-up the individual researchers and whom they work for. There's too much at stake here for the companies trying to sow doubt, as evidenced by some of the things I read here.
Though meatless burgers like beyond may be good for the planet. I'm not sure, if they are healthy for humans. Each serving seems to be very high in sodium (390mg) as compared to lean ground meat (80mg of sodium) [1]. So, for people with high blood pressure, this might be a no no.
Whilst the environmental and animal welfare benefits of many of the ‘fake’ meats (Beyond, Impossible, Vegetarian Butcher, etc) are noble and important, in the spirit of ‘full’ lifecycle analysis, it is important to also consider just how processed (ultra processed) these products are and the potential impacts this has in the human health domain.
And the research on ultra processed foods is rather clear, they are ‘bad’ for human health in large quantities.
Some alternatives that are better for the environment AND for human health include: pulled oats from Finland, and fake cheese products made from beans (rather than tree nuts).
Edit: Added… simple tip, read the ingredient list and count the number of ingredients used.
Most of the ranch land in my area isn't really suitable for other kinds of agriculture so I don't know if that measure means much. It certainly isn't irrigated and I think the cows give back the water they use.
It's good to see these sorts of numbers, especially as a $BYND stockholder. :)
I've had more impossible burgers (from BK) than beyond, and I think I prefer the impossible taste a bit more, but only slightly. In a burger, with other toppings (tomatoes, mustard, onions, lettuce, etc)... the 'non-beef' taste is pretty minimal, in my experience, although I do notice a slight aftertaste. Haven't tried the new "beyond 3.0" which is dropping this week.
As a 'beef substitute' for every day cooking, haven't used it, but had other family members tell me they use the 'beyond sausage' (some spicy italian variation) in their everyday cooking to replace previous sausage use and they love it. They've gone totally vegetarian, have tried multiple meat substitutes over the years and think beyond is generally the best.
Have been trying ways to reduce meat consumption - going for blackbean substitutes in some situations, beyond/impossible burgers when available, etc. Not sure I'll ever go totally 'no-meat' but I do notice I have far less red meat consumption compared to 6-7 years ago.
I agree with another poster that the high sodium is a problem, and is possibly keeping some people away.
I've been trying to eat less meat for environmental reasons, and it's been made much easier because of Beyond Burger.
I personally can't tell the difference between Beyond Burger and a real beef burger, especially when I buy it from fast food chains like Carl's Jr where it is covered in sauce. I've had Impossible Burger several times and I could never get over its smell.
Beyond Sausage Spicy Italian is also a favorite in our household.
I've tried Beyond Burgers and I quite like them. Sure it's not the same, but honestly, I don't really care that it tastes the same. I've also tried other burgers that do not try to mimic burgers and just create a new taste... and I also really like them! sometimes even more.
I believe in just reducing meat consumption. I think meat should be a lot more expensive because when you purchase it, you should pay a tax for the environmental impact. That way, hopefully eating meat becomes a luxury, and not something you eat always at lunch and dinner. And even if it does not, at least the money collected from this tax could go into environmental programs.
I’m always surprised to hear folks having such negative opinions of beyond and impossible burgers. I quite like the taste despite it not being an exact beef flavour, and I think the texture is more or less spot on.
It's hard to understand what "99% less impact on water scarcity" means but surely beyond meat can't use less water than vegetables? (since beyond meat is plant based)
One of the ethical trade offs between animal and veg for me is how labour intensive veg is. Back of envelope calculations and equivalent calorie of no mechanically harvested veg (pretty much most things except staples) harm more people than meat production. At the end of the day welfare of people > animals.
[+] [-] sweetheart|4 years ago|reply
- The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste
But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals.
This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible.
Maybe you think the burger tastes different, or has a strange texture, but I certainly won't try to argue that because it doesn't matter. No one needed to die for you to eat it.
[+] [-] Gustomaximus|4 years ago|reply
I find this interesting, in that cropping has plenty of violent against animals but one step removed.
I have a small cattle property, we run on hill country with diversified ecosystem, mixed grass and bushland. We have a heap of native animals living across the property. And at the end of the day the steers do get sent of for slaughter after 18 to 24 months + we kill feral pigs when they get in large numbers.
While cropping properties they tend to be monoculture, very little native animal presence. The spray like buggery wiping out insects with all that flow on effect (and to be fair we spray too, herbicide only and never pesticides and far less frequently). Also the cropping properties tend to shoot 'pests' heavily. We don't mind a few kangaroos and ducks type thing about but cropping properties are very serious about deterring and killing anything that hits their property.
And to be clear, I'm not having a go at you. I admire vegetarians for their genuinely caring moral position, and my family actually try to do more vegetarians meals. While at the same time I'm not sure plant based options are so devoid of killing, only the end product is one step removed.
[+] [-] tsimionescu|4 years ago|reply
The problem I have with this argument is that it always seems to me to focus on the life of the animal, but not on the death of the animal.
All animals eventually die, and most natural deaths are far more horrifying than how we slaughter animals, especially in modern times (though even traditional slaughter is nothing compared to starving to death, being eaten alive by insects, being hunted and terrified by a predator etc).
So, I think that it is important how the animals are grown (factory farms are absolutely horrible, unacceptable places to live in, and should ideally become illegal sooner rather than later, regardless of the consequences on the price of food). But I really don't think there is any reason to feel bad about the slaughter of animals who have led a decent life, even if it may be shorter than they would expect in nature (the huge proliferation of their species is kind of payment for that, in a way).
[+] [-] MPSimmons|4 years ago|reply
My thoughts are that BeyondBeef has a kind of plastic-y smell, but is almost exactly right in terms of color and texture.
The smell is not concerning to me, but it is distinct for my palette. I still eat it, and don't mind. Aside from the burgers, I also really enjoy the spicy Italian sausages. There is a slightly different taste than pork-based sausages, but I would never complain about a Beyond Meat spicy sausage in my Italian food. The sweet Italian version tastes almost like a breakfast sausage to me.
For Impossible Burgers, I feel like the taste is virtually 100%. I don't actually know, if I were eating an impossible burger on a bun with the fixings, if I could tell you it was an impossible burger. The only thing they would lose on is the texture and maybe the color. The texture is more... chipped(?) than ground beef, so looking at a patty (probably easier with an 8oz than a 4oz) is pretty obvious, but man, the flavor is great.
Like I said, I eat either one of them as my first choice whenever they're sold at a restaurant.
[+] [-] paranoidrobot|4 years ago|reply
While I sympathise with the argument, I think that it's a mistake to push this aspect front and centre.
There's a whole lot of people out there who simply like eating meat, and that it means killing an animal is not particularly a problem.
The people I've spoken to about Beyond/Impossible and similar fake-meats all tend to think of it as something for vegans/vegetarians, because that's how this type of product has been presented for decades.
"Oh, you're having a BBQ? Fred's partner is a veggo, better chuck on some mushroom burgers or something"
It's a tough push to convince people that this isn't meant for vegans/vegetarians wanting meat, but a product for meat-eaters wanting to reduce their meat intake, but not necessarily wanting to give up their ability to have meals that taste like what they're used to.
Pushing from that angle, I would argue, is likely to have a bigger impact than saying "Think of the poor cow that had to get murdered for your burger!".
[+] [-] rickspencer3|4 years ago|reply
I eat plenty of meat, so I don't have an anti-meat agenda. But, for me, for fast food burgers, I may as well choose a less environmentally damaging, and yes, more animal friendly, alternative, because it hardly makes a difference.
[+] [-] dcolkitt|4 years ago|reply
From the perspective of any living creature, I generally think of existence as a positive good versus non-existence. I know I certainly would rather come to a violent death at a young age than have never been born at all.
I think there's a plausible argument that modern factory farming is so horrific that it's worse than non-existence. But a cow raised with a decent quality of life, and slaughtered humanely for its meat does not seem worse for animal welfare than eliminating the entire existence of the cow.
(Of course I realize there's ecological and health arguments for giving up meat, but purely talking along the dimension of animal welfare.)
[+] [-] kiawe_fire|4 years ago|reply
In time, and in part due to how complicated this ecosystem actually is (as explained by a few other replies here) I ended up settling on eating vegetarian “most of the time” and buying meat sourced from ethical places with better conditions when I do.
But it was surprising to me how threatened most people were when I was strictly vegetarian.
I won’t turn this into a political debate with my theories why, but nonetheless most of my circle of friends are animal lovers and I would have expected some degree of empathy with my cause, but most of them acted like I was personally going to sneak into their house and steal all their meat from them.
That said, I continue to have a great appreciation for the industry of meatless meat.
Although at this point, IMO, Impossible Burger is the gold standard, and after trying it once, eating any other burger (including Beyond) just doesn’t cut it.
[+] [-] entropyie|4 years ago|reply
Most cattle are treated well in Ireland, living outside on fresh grass (live exports aside). My main concerns are global resource depletion, biodiversity, deforestation and climate change.
We're beginning to see a real sea change in this meat eating country, meat-free products are popping up everywhere and not just marketed at vegans / hipsters.
[+] [-] beaunative|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imgabe|4 years ago|reply
Would you have every living thing just...stay alive forever? That’s not going to happen.
[+] [-] batiudrami|4 years ago|reply
My understanding is that popular opinion says Impossible is even closer, though I haven’t tried it personally.
[+] [-] csomar|4 years ago|reply
You know that plants are also living, feeling beings? Though not sure about being individual but that's highly subjective.
The cycle of life is that some trees harvest the sun, and then it's a fish-eat-fish kinda world.
Vegan meat is not important because it doesn't kill animals (it'll kill plants, and hence this is purely emotional/subjective). But because it could be very sustainable. There is a reason why Japanese eat vegetables, fish and pork. They have a large population on a tight island. They have to do otherwise. (they also drive very small compact cars/mini-vans).
[+] [-] nerbert|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jzush|4 years ago|reply
And Beyond Burgers actually taste fine. Not amazing, not “just like beef” but not bad. I can eat a Beyond Burger and feel satisfied.
My problem with Beyond Burgers or Beyond products as a whole is that they STINK! Bad! When cooking. I don’t know why but cooking a beyond burger stinks up my kitchen worse than my cats litter box freshly pooped in.
[+] [-] tomglynch|4 years ago|reply
In my opinion, the most important thing is that it is considerably better for the environment due to the reduction in emissions, water and land. Don't get me wrong, no violence against animals is a benefit too, but to me it's not the number one reason to try imitation meat.
[+] [-] King-Aaron|4 years ago|reply
Looking forward to seeing how the technology develops, but yeah. It hasn't changed my habits yet.
[+] [-] JeremyNT|4 years ago|reply
Do you know which concern resonates most with my 10 year old daughter? Absolutely none of them. She is aware of the issues, and appears to be a conscientious person in the abstract, but when confronted with the option of eating an animal in the moment she simply doesn't care at all.
Are adults more empathetic? Maybe. But fundamentally I think that by the time something makes it to your plate, it's simply too far removed from where it came from for any of these considerations to resonate with most people.
We've considered trying to show her Okja [0] to see if it has any effect on her perspective. I know it was at least partially instrumental in causing me to reconsider factory farming.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okja
[+] [-] eloff|4 years ago|reply
When I was about fifteen it occurred to me that while that's true, those animals wouldn't be alive at all without us raising them for food. So it seems to me that the goal should be raising them in good conditions without cruelty. At least to my way of thinking, as someone grateful to my parents that I exist, that's better than no life at all.
There are plenty of other solid reasons to eat less meat, but this argument never worked for me.
I actually like the beyond burgers. If they weren't more expensive than a beef burger, I'd eat them.
[+] [-] elktea|4 years ago|reply
Except all those animals + insects that once inhabited the fields
[+] [-] ipaddr|4 years ago|reply
It seems like we are going backwards.
You know what uses less greenhouse emissions, less water and less land? The orginal plant based food that gets processed into a beyond burger.
If you really care about the planet why are you buying processed anything? That get's shipped nationwide / worldwide that creates factories, chemical waste, greenhouse gases. Buying locally and growing locally really helps the planet. Going to burger king and getting an absolute burger instead of a whooper is just pretending.
[+] [-] tootie|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jlnthws|4 years ago|reply
If you care about the environment, your health and animal well being then just eat less animal product (you need some anyway), buy only local food (local meat) and above all stop wasting so much of it.
Just a few decades ago people knew what they were eating, no processed food in any way. They were raising their livestock in their yard, they knew their single sheep / pork / cow and poultry and respected them. At some point you need to eat and kill them, people getting shocked by this have just become brainwashed or oversensitive. Go spend some time in Africa, Asia or Eastern Europe, they're laughing at this nonsense trend.
[+] [-] crymptonopeicon|4 years ago|reply
If I'm really going to be dead within 100 years, why am I doing anything?
Lots of reasons, but the easiest is because it's more enjoyable than the alternative. Who cares if a plant burger is heavily-processed? I like it and I don't have to think about whatever died to bring me my meal.
Yes, it would be better if I grew my own lentils and only ate homemade dal. But that's not realistic for most people, and from a health and environmental perspective, it seems like it's hard to do worse than red meat.
[+] [-] lambdaba|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Matumio|4 years ago|reply
And obviously, few food-processing factories or bulk shipping methods of ingredients cause enough greenhouse gasses that you can just eat local meat instead, if you care about your footprint. Saying that none of this is solving a real problem is wishful thinking.
[+] [-] goodoldneon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Pfhreak|4 years ago|reply
If 10% of whopper sales switch to impossible whoppers, that's a big deal, and foods like this can provide a bridge to consumers who have never considered vegetarianism.
I do buy or grow local food, I'm a vegetarian myself. Your view is, in my opinion, too black and white. There's serious momentum around plant based meals, and that's making even more plant based foods available elsewhere.
[+] [-] kilroy123|4 years ago|reply
I think you could do better by simply eating more veggies and cutting red meat consumption.
[+] [-] Traster|4 years ago|reply
Are gas turbines a part of a zero emissions electricity grid? No of course not. But are they an improvment on what's happening today? In some cases yes.
Ultimately you're right, eating locally grown plant based diets would be better for an individual, but you're also wrong because the beyond burger is a hell of a lot better than the food it's replacing in most cases.
[+] [-] majani|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fmajid|4 years ago|reply
Vat-grown meat may have a future, but fake meat does not.
[+] [-] neuro_image2|4 years ago|reply
I would appreciate answers to the following two, albeit simplistic questions that always plaque me when I consider stopping eating meat products:
1) Is it really unethical to eat animals when the natural trajectory of most animals lives was likely to be eaten by other animals or die some horrendous death in their natural environment? Isn't it better for an animal to live its best life on a free range farm being grass fed, then get quickly and humanely slaughtered?
2)If I made a personal decision to stop eating meat, would there be any significant impact at all on the overall environment realistically? For example, I recently watched the documentary Seaspiracy which showed the negative effects of commercial fishing. However, the reality is that me (not) eating a bowl of sashimi once a week makes no difference in the context of, say, countries like Japan slaughtering millions of fish daily (regardless of any change in behavior on my part or my small circle of influence)?
[+] [-] markonen|4 years ago|reply
I’m a carnivore and would definitely notice the difference in a Pepsi challenge of the patties themselves, but the overall taste and presentation make this place pull ahead of all the meat-based alternatives.
I feel like we’ve crossed a threshold. This was literal sci-fi just a couple of years ago.
[+] [-] andrew_|4 years ago|reply
1. Is it healthy?
2. Does it taste good?
3. Is it sustainable?
Fake meat, at this point, barely meets #1, absolutely gets nowhere close to fulfilling #2 for my taste, and seems to fulfill #3. But it tastes like hot garbage compared to actual meat. I'll wait for lab-grown muscle to reach maturity. My taste buds and macros matter more in the meantime.
[1] https://www.radicalcandor.com/faq/what-is-ruinous-empathy/#:....
[+] [-] pibechorro|4 years ago|reply
If you want to be meat free, eat vegetables. Portabella burgers are deoicious, as is grilled eggplant, zuccini, etc. All healthy for you.
The fake meat trend makes us all more unhealthy. If you have issues with meat, work on addressinf the big farm, big ranch industry which needs their agg gag protections and subcidies immediately removed.
[+] [-] dvko|4 years ago|reply
- Cattle does not eat soy byproducts and soy production is definitely not driven by human consumption. Not by value, not by mass. [1]
- Bison herds did not produce as much methane as today's cattle. [2]
- Cattle does not strictly use land unsuitable for growing crops. Also, this completely ignores any other unwanted effects of having too much cattle (in one area). [3]
- Meat is not always healthier than "processed foods", whatever the latter may actually mean.
1: https://nieuwscheckers.nl/nieuwscheckers/soja-voor-veevoer-i...
2: https://mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com/2019/09/21/bison-vs...
3: https://www.wur.nl/upload_mm/f/8/f/86d216c6-5b3c-4058-acb3-5...
When looking for facts on any of this, try to look for scientific papers instead of videos or blogs and do look-up the individual researchers and whom they work for. There's too much at stake here for the companies trying to sow doubt, as evidenced by some of the things I read here.
[+] [-] whimsicalism|4 years ago|reply
Impossible is the real burger king in this category
[+] [-] fermentation|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ram_rar|4 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-ho...
[+] [-] raidicy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrian_mrd|4 years ago|reply
And the research on ultra processed foods is rather clear, they are ‘bad’ for human health in large quantities.
Some alternatives that are better for the environment AND for human health include: pulled oats from Finland, and fake cheese products made from beans (rather than tree nuts).
Edit: Added… simple tip, read the ingredient list and count the number of ingredients used.
[+] [-] swader999|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lowercased|4 years ago|reply
I've had more impossible burgers (from BK) than beyond, and I think I prefer the impossible taste a bit more, but only slightly. In a burger, with other toppings (tomatoes, mustard, onions, lettuce, etc)... the 'non-beef' taste is pretty minimal, in my experience, although I do notice a slight aftertaste. Haven't tried the new "beyond 3.0" which is dropping this week.
As a 'beef substitute' for every day cooking, haven't used it, but had other family members tell me they use the 'beyond sausage' (some spicy italian variation) in their everyday cooking to replace previous sausage use and they love it. They've gone totally vegetarian, have tried multiple meat substitutes over the years and think beyond is generally the best.
Have been trying ways to reduce meat consumption - going for blackbean substitutes in some situations, beyond/impossible burgers when available, etc. Not sure I'll ever go totally 'no-meat' but I do notice I have far less red meat consumption compared to 6-7 years ago.
I agree with another poster that the high sodium is a problem, and is possibly keeping some people away.
[+] [-] mykowebhn|4 years ago|reply
I personally can't tell the difference between Beyond Burger and a real beef burger, especially when I buy it from fast food chains like Carl's Jr where it is covered in sauce. I've had Impossible Burger several times and I could never get over its smell.
Beyond Sausage Spicy Italian is also a favorite in our household.
[+] [-] jimmaswell|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] catdawg|4 years ago|reply
I believe in just reducing meat consumption. I think meat should be a lot more expensive because when you purchase it, you should pay a tax for the environmental impact. That way, hopefully eating meat becomes a luxury, and not something you eat always at lunch and dinner. And even if it does not, at least the money collected from this tax could go into environmental programs.
[+] [-] rddbs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] khc|4 years ago|reply
It's hard to understand what "99% less impact on water scarcity" means but surely beyond meat can't use less water than vegetables? (since beyond meat is plant based)
[+] [-] dirtyid|4 years ago|reply
One of the ethical trade offs between animal and veg for me is how labour intensive veg is. Back of envelope calculations and equivalent calorie of no mechanically harvested veg (pretty much most things except staples) harm more people than meat production. At the end of the day welfare of people > animals.