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magoon | 4 years ago

I’m surprised to hear that bluetooth, GPS, and cellular don’t work in water. I wonder what’s the science behind this.

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kajecounterhack|4 years ago

Radio is part of the EM spectrum. EM waves (including light) decay under water at an exponential rate due to absorption by the medium. So data transmission underwater must rely instead on mechanical waves (sound).

This is why underwater robots mostly use tethers, otherwise you couldn't control them very well (RC control would stop working at a very shallow depth).

Note: why are folks downvoting an honest question?

marche|4 years ago

> (including light)

I remember being told in some physics class that visible light is actually the radiation which penetrates the most, and that indeed this may be the very reason why it's visible: eyes were developed when life was still aquatic, therefore they evolved to be sensitive to the range of frequencies that could reach them.

potatoman22|4 years ago

Don't EM waves decay at an exponential rate in all mediums?

hutzlibu|4 years ago

"Note: why are folks downvoting an honest question?"

I suppose because of Friday.

em_rocks|4 years ago

Most water you’d drop a phone into has enough traces of salt to make it conductive. Therefore, the water acts like a faraday cage.

Theres a calculation you can do to calculate this, its pretty standard E&M stuff. Basically you calculate the skin depth of the material and thats as far as the signal can penetrate. The derivation highlights some cool things:

1. Its frequency dependent. This is why military submarines communicate at around 30 Hz.

2. Your audio cable (and all high frequency power cables) are stranded

3. Your microwave is effectively shielded with a thin layer of metal

4. An induction stove wont work with Al pans, but will quickly melt Al foil

frosted-flakes|4 years ago

Wow, that's fascinating. I've never heard of this—I assumed it was only because the water is dense enough that it absorbs the radio signals.

TeMPOraL|4 years ago

Lots of answers already, but let me contribute this little heuristic:

Radio waves, being EM radiation, are just light - like "visible light", except our eyes can't see it. There are some peculiarities related to wavelengths (particularly when they get very large, or close to the size of a regular surface pattern of an illuminated object), but to a good approximation, you can mentally replace "radio antenna" with "a lightbulb", and make correct determinations about how radio behaves.

In this case: much like you can't see much in water, compared to air, and a submerged flashlight also doesn't shine very far, a submerged phone has a hard time seeing signals, and its emissions don't travel far either.

anfractuosity|4 years ago

That's a good question, submarines use very low frequencies for communication, so I assume bluetooth/GSM might be pretty attenuated by the water? But also it might have turned off due to the water shorting something?

kajecounterhack|4 years ago

Signal attenuation is correct.

naikrovek|4 years ago

water absorbs 2.4GHz readily. this is why microwaves use that frequency to heat your food. microwaves are why that frequency band is unlicensed, too.

so that's Bluetooth and wi-fi ruled out.

GPS is a lower frequency, ~1.5GHz I think, and GPS is already an extremely low power signal.

I don't know about 4g or 5g though.

kelnos|4 years ago

4G and 5G are going to depend on the mobile carrier. In the US, at least, that's usually going to be somewhere between 850MHz and 2100MHz. I recall reading something more recent about 700MHz being opened up in some areas.

Looks like Germany is 700-2600MHz for 4G, with 5G up at 3500MHz[0].

For underwater stuff it looks like you need something much lower in the kHz range[1], at least for distances of up to a couple hundred feet. Obviously this particular situation involves a much shorter distance. The page on MF radio[2] does mention water, and talks about frequencies up to 3MHz, but that's still way lower than any LTE bands used.

[0] https://www.gsmarena.com/network-bands.php3?sCountry=GERMANY

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_frequency

moepstar|4 years ago

Signal also drops out pretty fast - once you go past a few cm (lets say 3-5cm, about 2") signal is out...

I once tested that with a waterproof phone in clear water, can't recall which phone it was tho...

Don't feel brave enough to try it with my iPhone 8, even tho it supposedly is waterproof as well - my SO once tested it with a spilled drink...

walrus01|4 years ago

> I wonder what’s the science behind this.

the same general reason why microwave band radio sees signal fade when there's rain on a point-to-point link through the air, but magnified greatly since the radio is now inside a solid mass of water. One of the problems faced by modern submarines for data communications, they use either ELF/VLF trailing antennas that are spooled out, while running 'kind of' shallow, or buoys, or antennas on periscope masts.

Sharlin|4 years ago

It’s why we use sonar rather than radar to see underwater… Indeed also the reason we can use radar to detect rainclouds.

zamadatix|4 years ago

Not much different than why they don't work through the ground - it's mass that absorbs a wide range of frequencies.