I was born in the US and lived abroad for 10 years before returning recently. It was a big and very demoralizing culture shock when I returned and, being in the habit of being friendly to strangers, saw how withdrawn and mistrusting people here have become. More so because I'm in Austin, TX, which is widely reported to be a friendly city. Everyone is so obsessed with work and virtue signalling. I didn't notice how competitive Americans are until I had a frame of reference to make the comparison. Living in South and Central America, my impression was that people are far more accepting regardless of whether you are a career professional or a not, or your hobbies or political alignment. In Belize I made a dozen good friends within six months of arriving, and I haven't made a single friend in three years here. I've been extremely depressed since I returned. I'm considering leaving again now that the lockdown has made remote work easier to come by (which was the primary reason I returned to the US in the first place). I'm not trying to slander Americans, and I understand that you can't make sweeping generalizations about any group of people, but the pressure and stress of our society is overwhelming.
I spent some time in Central America radicalizi... err I mean traveling for fun, after college.
One of the things that always stood out to me was how patient everyone generally was with one another.
I remember riding around on chicken buses to get from town to town, and on more than one occasion, the bus would just pull over and the driver would get out, grab some lunch, talk to a friend. Nobody was in a rush.
My friend that I was traveling with and I would stare at each other and be like "what the hell is going on?" as we looked around at everyone else on the bus and nobody seems to care at all that their day has this arbitrary delay. I can only imagine if a driver did that here in Seattle with 30+ people all trying to get somewhere.
I like living in the US, I think it has some massive upsides, but I also think I'm a bit of a hostage to what I think my life is supposed to look like, versus simplification somewhere else.
I personally LOVE LOVE LOVE USA, Miami in particular. I don't know why. Maybe is the weather, the beach, etc. I would love to live there and work one day.
That said, three things worry me:
1) How complicated the health industry is there. Being from Argentina where health is universal, or living now in Germany where is also universal, that is crazy for me.
2) How easy you are fired and that you basically don't get any protection if you are. Again, here in Germany we have insurance that covers for many months, etc.
3) How bad employees are treated there by (most but not all?) companies.
Personal story. My sister, she had to travel in the middle of the pandemic to my home country as my father was sick. She asked for permission to work remotely for 3 weeks. She had to stay 2 more because my father's health was not the best. When she returned, the company told her that that is not what they expected of her and fired her on the spot. Now, I was in my home country so I know my sister worked all the normal hours and more, she was connected all the time, and giving her 120% (if such a thing exists). And still, they said, good by. Crazy.
That's one of the weirdest things you figure out traveling. There are really no rules to what life is. It can have a drastically different texture based on things about your environment that don't feel that meaningful when you just think "that's the way things always are" with no alternative to compare it to.
Being older now (Gen X) I've noticed a change as well. I've wondered if the US culture has grown an unhealthy level of competition. Young people internalize lessons that the people around them (classmates, neighbors) are competitors for spots in prestigious programs and later, jobs. You're taught that you should be friendly, but not "too friendly" as you are going to need to be better than them to get what you want. I don't think this explicit, but something that is incentivized through grades, tests, and gamification of everyday life. That and the deepening divide between classes. If you don't get good grades, get into a good school, get a good job, etc. you may fall off the cliff into the lower classes. If that means you need to be ruthless in your social interactions, that's just the price.
It's like we've decided to let psychopaths dictate how society operates.
I wouldn't say either one is good or bad, I've learnt to appreciate the differences.
Having lived in latin America and the US, US feels more concerned about individualism, achievements and efficiency and it shows in friendships. Outings are organized days in advance, people are expected to show up on time, calendar invites are not unheard of.
In latin America, life is more about family and being happy. You can call a friend the same day and enjoy a cold beer after work (some time after work, punctuality not required). I think people would laugh in my face if I tell them I'll send them a calendar invite.
If you live/can meet in the northern part of town I’d be happy to have lunch with you some time so you can at least have one friend in town… email is my username @ gmail.com.
I am mistrustful as hell. I'm guilty of this as an ohioan. To devils advocate my position, a higher stressed group is more desperate and more likely to screw me over?
IDK but there is definitely an atmosphere of us vs them watch your back.
I travel around the US working from different states/cities. The difference in behavior is astounding between the big and small cities. I have the absolute best experiences in small to mid sized towns, and in big cities everyone on the road and in person behaves sociopathically.
It’s often beyond even simple competition / selfishness. You routinely see people going out of their way to be mean even when it doesn’t benefit them. But switch towns and the whole situation is flipped.
I grew-up in San Jose, went to Davis, and came back to the Valley and commuted to Chico until 2019. Most Californians seemed bitter, angry, resentful, humorless, and ready to explode.
I live in ATX now in overpriced, poorly-maintained apartments full of "stock-broker"-types, salespeople, managers, and software dev couples, and people who think they're hot sh%t either because of inheritance or university pedigree. $3k/month isn't like Valley prices; this is a 1400 sq ft cost-saver efficiency for me. I'd happily trade for a 3000 sq ft / $6k/month place if the people were more decent over there, if that's within the realm of reasonable expectations.
There's no apparent stress of amongst the people with more money than sense, but there is stress amongst the hundreds of people living under I-35 when they've been told that their existence is illegal when they have nowhere else to go.
I wonder if the root causes here are closer to skyrocketing housing costs, healthcare risks, and relatively stagnant wages making it hard to de-risk the first two.
The article mentions -
By contrast, the daily stress levels for women in Western Europe went down in the last year, which researchers attribute to social safety nets for parents and workers to prevent unemployment.
But then goes on to talk about the workplace. I don't think it's the workplace. I think it's the lack of psychological security as the middle class ceases to exist.
Be very careful, before drawing any conclusions, to note that the study is only counting workers.
This is particularly relevant because European economies have significantly higher unemployment rates. Especially long-term youth unemployment. This makes any difference of European and American workers an apples to orange comparison.
You could have a low-skilled 23 year old American working a dead-end McJob. His counterpart in Italy is unable to get any work, has a pittance of disposable income and is stuck living with his parents. Only one is being counted.
We don’t really know who’s more miserable. It’s quite possible the unemployed European still has it better than the Wal-Mary greeter. But the point is this survey doesn’t tell us, because it’s excluding the unemployed from the respondent pool.
It seems like broadly speaking everyone has just been stressed here for a few years. Not stressed about work? How about healthcare? Or the economy? Or one of many social topics? Maybe political disagreements with your family members? How about some looming climate related topic? The whole country feels stressed out for one reason or another and it’s gotten noticeably worse over the last decade. The title could very well replace “US Workers” with “Americans” and probably be just as accurate.
I make low six figures as a single, childless person, and am just barely doing ok. I rent a cheap 1 bedroom apartment, drive a 20 year old Toyota, and end up with just enough for a small amount of savings each month with very little discretionary spending. Buying a home is an impossible fantasy. Being out of work for a couple months would leave me homeless. I literally cannot imagine what it's like trying to support a family on the average salary in this country.
With respect either you left out some major details or you have a skewed perspective of what it means to be "doing ok." My position matches what you stated almost exactly (low 6 figures, single, childless, 17 year old Toyota) and I'm doing _very_ well. I bought a house last year, max out my 401k and Roth IRA contributions with additional savings on top, have a decent emergency fund, paid off my student loans five years early...
I'm not trying to brag, but a single person making six figures should be doing quite well anywhere in the US. I really suggest sitting down and carefully tracking how you spend money for a month or two to find out where it's going.
If you can muster up 10k-15k you can buy a $300k house with 3% down. There are down payment assistance programs as well. After a few years you can refinance to remove PMI etc…. It’s not impossible but it is certainly difficult.
Highly recommend creating a ledger of all spending. It's amazing how quickly the little things add up, by simply taking the time to write things down it becomes much easier to see where it all goes.
Many credit cards claim to do this for you, but to me that defeats the point. If you aren't taking the time do your own accounting, it simply becomes another email/HTML table/push notification/whatever to ignore.
I make low 6 figures and support a family of 4. We have to budget, but we definitely aren't struggling, we are able to afford plenty of luxuries. Buying a house was not too big of a task. You should move to the Midwest.
Others have done ballpark figures based on what you've said. And as someone who has lived in San Francisco making even less at times, I agree that you should be able to build up at least several months savings.
Unless: you have some crippling college debt ($20k/semester*8 semesters paid over ? years), or have a persistent medical issue ($10k/yr out of pocket), or another terrible corner case that I haven't had the displeasure of encountering.
Because for most employees you can be fired on the spot for something you did ten years ago, or just because you’re the least percentile ranked member of a team, so you have to go. US workers are the most stressed because, with few exceptions, an employer can pull the rug out from under them, while awarding themselves massive bonuses.
If US workers feel stressed now, just wait. Your knowledge and service jobs are next on the chopping block as foreign competition from Rwanda to Rangoon moves up the value ladder; and as automation continues encroaching. We wanted cheap products from overseas, cheap debt, big state/federal spending & billions spent on sustainability boondoggles, D&I initiatives & regulation. Congrats! Mission accomplished and the bill is coming due. Grievance culture is costly as hell for society.
I have a Bachelor's degree in IT, hold a whole alphabet of certifications, and am happy to work part time at the company I work at making $20/hr. Why? Because I'm actually treated like a human being with tons of autonomy. I can crack jokes, control my own schedule, take breaks if I get frustrated, and do basically whatever I want as long as I'm honest with my work logs.
So many jobs here are dehumanizing. We are treated like cogs by a highly stressed management, and if you don't "pull your weight" and overwork yourself then you are cast from the group. Try to push back, and you get a talking to by silver-tongued executives who just don't understand why we don't Work Harder. In a previous job, I was scheduled shifts from 7am-9pm just a week after being in the hospital.
I find this individualistic view of the problem fascinating.
It treats companies as individuals and thinks they're all different, which is bolstered by the BS terminology about "corporate culture" that the companies themselves push.
But to anyone who sees the big picture, it's obvious that this is capitalism. Under capitalism, you are a cog in a machine. Always have been, always will be.
This isn't some particular company treating its employees like trash. It's the entire system of commodifying all aspects of life in order for the line in the chart to keep going up indefinitely.
But individualism has people so utterly blind to this that they treat companies as people, which is dystopian to the max.
What city did you work in before? I live in the midwest and have hopes to move to NYC one day but you're painting a picture between the world I live in now and the world I want to live in. Meaning, the more relaxed environment but "lower" pay (relative to the tech field but definitely well paying for where I live) place is where I live. NYC I somewhat envisioned as a bit more cutthroat if I wanted to live in Manhattan (which I don't) but maybe not so much if I wanted to live in Brooklyn, Queens, or even Jersey City.
That's because America is the land where misery is virtue. We could have all trappings of a true first-world country with ease if we wanted to. But where's the fun in that? Much better to pretend that everyone else is a leech or a slob and decide that the only way to get quality work out of them is to make them as miserable as possible. Do honest manual labor because book learning isn't your thing? Better have 3 jobs to be as virtuous as the guy who drank through 4 years of college.
I know people are going to draw conclusions about safety nets and such, but they grouped in American AND Canada, though honestly who can know what that means in terms of grouping those two together (I have no idea how about Gallup's weightings between the two countries). But they did include Canadians as well in their misery index.
Not me, I find my engineering job in a large US corporation fun and rewarding and pretty well paid. I was more stressed out early in my career, though, when I worked at smaller startups.
Many countries around the world have an "untouchable" class. I'm most familiar with the burakumin in Japan (disclosure: lived next to a burakumin community while teaching there). These untouchable classes function in society as a way to keep the lowest rungs of the "official" social classes in line. If you don't do your terrible job we can always cast you down there.
The United States has untouchable classes as well, they're just called "homeless" or "undocumented" and we are taught to believe that "it's their own fault" rather than the result of a shitty traditional caste system.
The last couple decades have expanded this class and made it more visible. I don't think this was a conspiracy, but the existence of this class is certainly advantageous to corporations that want to keep people down.
I guess it has a lot to do with worker's expectations.
in the 3rd world, for example, for the same job categories, the working conditions etc are much worse...
> “The most important thing employers can do is to equip managers to have the right kinds of conversations with people,”
and the rest,
This puts a lot on managers. I don't think leaders in organization are incentivized to make their reports happy. Managers don't get promotions because their team is happy. They get promotions doing things that make quality of life worse, empire building, adding responsibilities, team closing tickets, disruptive changes that only sound good. I don't think managers see happiness as part of their job.
I think its a lot to ask people and companies to do this out of the goodness of their heart or expect them to be forward thinking enough to see that happier employees mean better performance. And that second might not even be true, we could be stressed because were trying to be most efficient possible at all times.
The only country I heard of people working multiple jobs to make ends meet is USA. Definitely not a compliment to the most powerful and influential country in the world.
About forty years ago, a housemate lost his job, he said because Reagan put a hiring freeze on at EPA. He told me that it made people deeply uncomfortable at parties when they asked him what he did and he said, Nothing. This was in Washington, where I still live.
IT's funny the title only mention the USA but the article mentions USA and Canadian workers, both having the same percentage of stress. But Canada isn't mentioned in the headline.
Americans are in constant competition with each other for everything.(jobs,houses(and with foreign investors too),social media points)
Fighting, fucking, sleeping... it's all we know how to do anymore. We used to make things, build things, share accomplishments as a society and a nation with each other. Now everything is about the personal accumulation of power/money. Not sure how a society like this is meant to last.
Given the events of the last few years and the fact that a cretin like Trump was ever elected President, I'm pretty sure we are 100% fucked.
[+] [-] pault|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sharkweek|4 years ago|reply
One of the things that always stood out to me was how patient everyone generally was with one another.
I remember riding around on chicken buses to get from town to town, and on more than one occasion, the bus would just pull over and the driver would get out, grab some lunch, talk to a friend. Nobody was in a rush.
My friend that I was traveling with and I would stare at each other and be like "what the hell is going on?" as we looked around at everyone else on the bus and nobody seems to care at all that their day has this arbitrary delay. I can only imagine if a driver did that here in Seattle with 30+ people all trying to get somewhere.
I like living in the US, I think it has some massive upsides, but I also think I'm a bit of a hostage to what I think my life is supposed to look like, versus simplification somewhere else.
[+] [-] kwanbix|4 years ago|reply
That said, three things worry me:
1) How complicated the health industry is there. Being from Argentina where health is universal, or living now in Germany where is also universal, that is crazy for me.
2) How easy you are fired and that you basically don't get any protection if you are. Again, here in Germany we have insurance that covers for many months, etc.
3) How bad employees are treated there by (most but not all?) companies.
Personal story. My sister, she had to travel in the middle of the pandemic to my home country as my father was sick. She asked for permission to work remotely for 3 weeks. She had to stay 2 more because my father's health was not the best. When she returned, the company told her that that is not what they expected of her and fired her on the spot. Now, I was in my home country so I know my sister worked all the normal hours and more, she was connected all the time, and giving her 120% (if such a thing exists). And still, they said, good by. Crazy.
[+] [-] anm89|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sybercecurity|4 years ago|reply
It's like we've decided to let psychopaths dictate how society operates.
[+] [-] cocoa19|4 years ago|reply
I wouldn't say either one is good or bad, I've learnt to appreciate the differences.
Having lived in latin America and the US, US feels more concerned about individualism, achievements and efficiency and it shows in friendships. Outings are organized days in advance, people are expected to show up on time, calendar invites are not unheard of.
In latin America, life is more about family and being happy. You can call a friend the same day and enjoy a cold beer after work (some time after work, punctuality not required). I think people would laugh in my face if I tell them I'll send them a calendar invite.
[+] [-] maedla|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrkstu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daenz|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Milkman128|4 years ago|reply
IDK but there is definitely an atmosphere of us vs them watch your back.
[+] [-] SmellTheGlove|4 years ago|reply
https://www.vice.com/en/article/k78wpz/covid-changed-our-rel...
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sound1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emerged|4 years ago|reply
It’s often beyond even simple competition / selfishness. You routinely see people going out of their way to be mean even when it doesn’t benefit them. But switch towns and the whole situation is flipped.
[+] [-] failwhaleshark|4 years ago|reply
I live in ATX now in overpriced, poorly-maintained apartments full of "stock-broker"-types, salespeople, managers, and software dev couples, and people who think they're hot sh%t either because of inheritance or university pedigree. $3k/month isn't like Valley prices; this is a 1400 sq ft cost-saver efficiency for me. I'd happily trade for a 3000 sq ft / $6k/month place if the people were more decent over there, if that's within the realm of reasonable expectations.
There's no apparent stress of amongst the people with more money than sense, but there is stress amongst the hundreds of people living under I-35 when they've been told that their existence is illegal when they have nowhere else to go.
[+] [-] SmellTheGlove|4 years ago|reply
The article mentions -
But then goes on to talk about the workplace. I don't think it's the workplace. I think it's the lack of psychological security as the middle class ceases to exist.[+] [-] dcolkitt|4 years ago|reply
This is particularly relevant because European economies have significantly higher unemployment rates. Especially long-term youth unemployment. This makes any difference of European and American workers an apples to orange comparison.
You could have a low-skilled 23 year old American working a dead-end McJob. His counterpart in Italy is unable to get any work, has a pittance of disposable income and is stuck living with his parents. Only one is being counted.
We don’t really know who’s more miserable. It’s quite possible the unemployed European still has it better than the Wal-Mary greeter. But the point is this survey doesn’t tell us, because it’s excluding the unemployed from the respondent pool.
[+] [-] hvocode|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tangokat|4 years ago|reply
It's a luxury but one that Americans should be able to afford for all.
[+] [-] aphextron|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Merad|4 years ago|reply
I'm not trying to brag, but a single person making six figures should be doing quite well anywhere in the US. I really suggest sitting down and carefully tracking how you spend money for a month or two to find out where it's going.
[+] [-] sjg007|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nafix|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meetups323|4 years ago|reply
Many credit cards claim to do this for you, but to me that defeats the point. If you aren't taking the time do your own accounting, it simply becomes another email/HTML table/push notification/whatever to ignore.
[+] [-] missedthecue|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewnicolalde|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frankbreetz|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kag0|4 years ago|reply
Unless: you have some crippling college debt ($20k/semester*8 semesters paid over ? years), or have a persistent medical issue ($10k/yr out of pocket), or another terrible corner case that I haven't had the displeasure of encountering.
[+] [-] aejnsn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maybelsyrup|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] docderanged|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] doccomic|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] docderanged|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] reidjs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] underseacables|4 years ago|reply
That’s why.
Edited for spelling and grammar.
[+] [-] howmayiannoyyou|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheAdamAndChe|4 years ago|reply
So many jobs here are dehumanizing. We are treated like cogs by a highly stressed management, and if you don't "pull your weight" and overwork yourself then you are cast from the group. Try to push back, and you get a talking to by silver-tongued executives who just don't understand why we don't Work Harder. In a previous job, I was scheduled shifts from 7am-9pm just a week after being in the hospital.
[+] [-] shadowmore|4 years ago|reply
It treats companies as individuals and thinks they're all different, which is bolstered by the BS terminology about "corporate culture" that the companies themselves push.
But to anyone who sees the big picture, it's obvious that this is capitalism. Under capitalism, you are a cog in a machine. Always have been, always will be.
This isn't some particular company treating its employees like trash. It's the entire system of commodifying all aspects of life in order for the line in the chart to keep going up indefinitely.
But individualism has people so utterly blind to this that they treat companies as people, which is dystopian to the max.
[+] [-] MeinBlutIstBlau|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MisterBastahrd|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SketchySeaBeast|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zwieback|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jefurii|4 years ago|reply
The United States has untouchable classes as well, they're just called "homeless" or "undocumented" and we are taught to believe that "it's their own fault" rather than the result of a shitty traditional caste system.
The last couple decades have expanded this class and made it more visible. I don't think this was a conspiracy, but the existence of this class is certainly advantageous to corporations that want to keep people down.
[+] [-] foolinaround|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danielovichdk|4 years ago|reply
Work identity is also a thing. Where you kinda become what you do for a living. Which is bad.
Money is bad for your mental health unless you know when to pull the plug and don't have bills to pay but no income.
The balance is not hard. Which leads me back to identity. Why the fuck would want to get something you cannot pay for?
[+] [-] tayo42|4 years ago|reply
and the rest,
This puts a lot on managers. I don't think leaders in organization are incentivized to make their reports happy. Managers don't get promotions because their team is happy. They get promotions doing things that make quality of life worse, empire building, adding responsibilities, team closing tickets, disruptive changes that only sound good. I don't think managers see happiness as part of their job.
I think its a lot to ask people and companies to do this out of the goodness of their heart or expect them to be forward thinking enough to see that happier employees mean better performance. And that second might not even be true, we could be stressed because were trying to be most efficient possible at all times.
[+] [-] sound1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cafard|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nemo44x|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tempfs|4 years ago|reply
Fighting, fucking, sleeping... it's all we know how to do anymore. We used to make things, build things, share accomplishments as a society and a nation with each other. Now everything is about the personal accumulation of power/money. Not sure how a society like this is meant to last.
Given the events of the last few years and the fact that a cretin like Trump was ever elected President, I'm pretty sure we are 100% fucked.