To me Telegram feels like the red corner district of a city. I simply don't feel like I can trust it, there's something very shady about it. I wouldn't be surprised if Telegram reads those exclusive Bitcoin whale groups and uses that insider info. Group chats are not end to end encrypted.
That being said, WhatsApp is like the authorized garage where you know that you'll get the service which is officially recognized (by the government) and will keep your car's value "at its best", but which screws you over in so many ways.
Everything else is somewhere in between these two platforms.
Care to qualify that speculation with some evidence?
It seems like whenever telegram is brought up here, there's a lot of speculation about it not being trustworthy but no concrete evidence.
The client is open source. While not end to end encrypted by default, it shares that property with most messengers. E2E limits search-ability and other features so it's a tradeoff.
I have to wonder if part of why this is mostly brought up is due to the origin of the app being a group with a Russian nationality. That's pretty sad.
The app is damn good. The best messenger app I've used - much better than signal. I'm so disappointed by this attitude.
Telegram works better as a chat app for my use case which is why I prefer it.
I use an iPhone for iOS development and as a backup phone, I use Android as a daily driver - WhatsApp couldn't sync history when I broke my phone twice in a year and had to switch to iPhone. And I prefer using a desktop app over mobile one, if my phone dies I can still use telegram desktop (this was useful a few times I left my phone in the car and wife drove off with it, I could keep using telegram to message her, my only other option would be messenger at that point).
I don't mind privacy implications of my random chats being read by telegram.
I’m not sure I’d want group chats with thousands of members to be end-to-end encrypted. It doesn’t even seem that clear what the actual utility of it would be.
Telegram is recognized by i.e. Singapore government. They have multiple official channels in Telegram, including ministry of manpower, public housing authority and ministry of foreign affairs. The official government site has their Telegram group as well.
None of the messengers except Signal give any confidence in being really private.
And when comparing Telegram and Whatsapp shady-wise, only one of them has obvious many reasons to track you as much as technically and legally possible.
And when it comes to app performance, UX and ease of use - Telegram beats all others with a huge margin.
Telegram accomodates over 200,000 users. I have my own community around Telegram; it has nothing to do with Crypto. Bots manage the rush; block words filter out conversations; spammers are blocked in their track, auto-delete or auto-removal of messages (if and when required).
Privacy controls on voice/video calling, restrictions on who can add me to groups and so on. Intelligent cache without looming storage limits on my device. Efficient application that doesn't drain battery. Cross platform client that even works in modern browser and remains in perfect sync.
I wonder why you are forgetting the virtues and only focused on the "shady aspects".
if i put down a years income for a new car, the 'authorized garage' has it's perks because the value of holesome repairs is probably greater than the cost.
if on the other hand one has a ten year old, used car, which main purpose is a means of transport, that greasy, dusty garage, were the mechanic will let you know that there was only one screw missing and charges you a few bucks is golden.
I don’t know if it’s the Russian style or the slightly nsfw emoji it packs by default but the program feels sus. Plus, I feel like it’s only hot news recently because of the Trump-follower-exodus. Plus all the gushing in this thread seems a bit over the top. What’s special about it over WhatsApp or heck even WeChat?
While the development teams at Telegram should be applauded I can't stress enough that it helps that they don't have E2EE and centralized most of the complexity to their server.
Related regarding feature deployment: I got some negative feedback for dumping on Matrix for announcing Spaces without iOS client support. They should have waited until Element had all their major platforms covered before announcing it. It's maybe an unpopular take but when around 40% of my homeserver's users can't use a major feature, that's a shitty rollout.
They have the most productive and high quality engineers in the game. And I say this as someone that whinces at telegram for not having e2e encryption by default.
This is one of the best feature sets, and I waited for over two years; ever since WhatsApp had got it. I find that stance of the community strange here - no "e2ee". Privacy is important, but your chat history hardly reflects that. There are other ways to get your history or track your digital trails.
200,000 users for group chat. Unlimited users for voice chat (like clubhouse).
30 users for group video calling. That limit will be increased later.
Flawless sync across platforms.
Secret chats - the e2ee chats self-destruct between users and stay on the device where it has been initiated.
Robust third party clients-that add more functionality to the official app. (I use Utyagram; Plus is another popular mod, but is closed source).
Unlimited users for channels - that work as broadcast lists.
The lists goes on and on.
> Secret chats - the e2ee chats self-destruct between users and stay on the device where it has been initiated.
Is this supposed to be a feature? Telegram themselves claim that this inability to backup chats is at least part of why they don't enable E2EE before mentioning that it allows users choice over data storage, which seems silly in the face of apps that allow for encrypted backups of E2EE messages. [1]
Signal backups are obviously E2EE and can be moved between devices by copying an encrypted blob or directly transferring over Wi-Fi, depending on your platform.
Meanwhile, on Telegram if I reinstall the app all of these chats are gone. If I change phones and posess both devices concurrently, there's still no official way to move chat histories. E2EE feels like a crippled afterthought on Telegram considering so many of the interesting Telegram chat features (or just backups/transfers) don't seem to work with it.
Telegram has absolutely amazing UX on all platforms I've used it on, I hope they can roll out encryption for group chats soon and show somehow that we can trust that encryption.
Really? Every Telegram group I tried to chat started spamming me with notifications every few seconds and I uninstalled the damn thing.
The UI also looks like it was made by a intern who just learned how to use Android Studio, not like something new and cool. The actual text "Telegram" and a magnifying glass button instead of a search bar, hamburger menu instead of your own profile pic, no big fat QR scan icon, ...
It has already been announced that they will add ads to Telegram but only to public groups/channels over a certain amount of users. Everything else will stay ad free. See: https://t.me/durov/142
I’m back to WhatsApp after many months of full time Signal usage. People started leaving Signal one by one. Some of them really tried. Not many had joined anyway. For most remaining contacts Signal was and for more it remained installed just for me.
A medical emergency in the family and I was back on WhatsApp in a second.
Signal kept crashing, remained full of UI bugs (the kind I just couldn’t believe is there has been there for months and years; yeah the simple and silly ones), functionality bugs, slightly better than barely useable calling, delayed messages, broken notifications, extremely frustrating and broken encryption key update even when there was no such actual update — while the foundation kept giving us new emojis/stickers and worked on crypto. Nice gesture I reckon. And yeah, still a closed garden.
No opinion really. It’s just how it is. I use Apple’s phone and computer which is proprietary and closed garden by design, effort, and lobbying. Who am I kidding.
So no, I’m not going to say Telegram is shady. Maybe it is but so are others. Maybe not Signal (or is it?). It’s just that Telegram is far from being the personal messaging/communication app, at least around me. It’s an extension of other online communities like subreddits. Discord is eating into that share anyway. It’s used for apartment groups. COVID update channels (especially in India where very high up offices still have public Gmail IDs) and all that. Oh, they do have literally the best mobile and desktop apps among its peers. By many miles.
Telegram does not have group voice nor video calls. It has voice (and now video) chats.
// Unless I am not aware of any recent change, I tested this last month and don't see any related update ever since.
Which is not the same, and actually, for me is not useful at all. The main difference is that a "chat" does not ring the other participants' phones, which is a must for me to "call" my family either voice or video. You must first tell them through chat that you will create a voice or video room/chat. For 1-on-1 it does have calls, as it rings. For groups, it does not.
I did not tested group (video or audio) calls, but 1 on 1 it works exactly as you (and me) expect. You could just call someone and it will ring on other side.
E2EE is genuinely hard to implement in the context of a chat service with server-side chat history, large (10k+ user) group chats, and multiple clients (including web applications).
And again, Telegram __does__ have e2e 1-to-1 secret chats. It's just that the group chats do not. This doesn't stop you from starting a secret chat with each and every person you'd like to chat with e2e.
I have long predicted that Telegram is the next facebook, but far better. Telegram is yet another centralized social network that is rolling out payments, video, etc.
It's not open source backend or customizable. But it's probably the most libertarian/freest one from the closed source solutions, that won't kick you off, and the software is very good.
We could consider integrating with them (for example, instead of connecting your mobile via sms, you could connect your telegram and then receive notifications there from some FTL bot).
PROBLEM
Still, of course, keep in mind it's a closed source and proprietary backend:
If you want an open source network to power "Web 2.0" communities, there aren't many good solutions. Diaspora, Matrix, Mastodon, Inrupt, etc. are just not on the same level as Telegram for regular users.
For Web 1.0 we have Wordpress, which powers 40% of all websites in the world now. But somehow for Web 2.0 there are no good alternatives, so all our public discourse is taking place on privately owned platforms, and now the US government has put out bills seeking to break up big tech. How about trying a more libertarian solution first: open source.
SOLUTION
We've been building something for the last 10 years, and giving it away as open source: https://github.com/Qbix
Here is a demo that we did for Yang's campaign two years ago, and kept it around as a demo, it has payments, video, etc. also but it uses open Web standards like WebRTC and WebPayments to do so, and it's completely open source: https://yang2020.app
PS
Web 3.0 is value transfer and programmable smart contracts, e.g. Ethereum web3 l9brary, etc. That happens to be radically open source (just like Web 1.0) because (for now) these blockhains and the code they run are all public, and you are encouraged to verify your smart contracts on EtherScan, etc.
Am I missing something here? This just looks like Zoom or Teams or any of the other video calling apps that have been running the world for the past year. What's so special about it?
This does a bunch of great things. Its focus isn’t video chat. Teams and Zoom are awful for most situations or actions. Zoom excels at [group] video chat/meetings/webinars only.
qwertox|4 years ago
That being said, WhatsApp is like the authorized garage where you know that you'll get the service which is officially recognized (by the government) and will keep your car's value "at its best", but which screws you over in so many ways.
Everything else is somewhere in between these two platforms.
throwaway13337|4 years ago
It seems like whenever telegram is brought up here, there's a lot of speculation about it not being trustworthy but no concrete evidence.
The client is open source. While not end to end encrypted by default, it shares that property with most messengers. E2E limits search-ability and other features so it's a tradeoff.
I have to wonder if part of why this is mostly brought up is due to the origin of the app being a group with a Russian nationality. That's pretty sad.
The app is damn good. The best messenger app I've used - much better than signal. I'm so disappointed by this attitude.
reader_mode|4 years ago
I use an iPhone for iOS development and as a backup phone, I use Android as a daily driver - WhatsApp couldn't sync history when I broke my phone twice in a year and had to switch to iPhone. And I prefer using a desktop app over mobile one, if my phone dies I can still use telegram desktop (this was useful a few times I left my phone in the car and wife drove off with it, I could keep using telegram to message her, my only other option would be messenger at that point).
I don't mind privacy implications of my random chats being read by telegram.
dan-robertson|4 years ago
phwak|4 years ago
End-to-end encrypted group chats are currently in the works.
Source - https://t.me/durovschat/518625
godelski|4 years ago
ranguna|4 years ago
wiradikusuma|4 years ago
allarm|4 years ago
risyachka|4 years ago
And when comparing Telegram and Whatsapp shady-wise, only one of them has obvious many reasons to track you as much as technically and legally possible.
And when it comes to app performance, UX and ease of use - Telegram beats all others with a huge margin.
andrepd|4 years ago
stereoradonc|4 years ago
Privacy controls on voice/video calling, restrictions on who can add me to groups and so on. Intelligent cache without looming storage limits on my device. Efficient application that doesn't drain battery. Cross platform client that even works in modern browser and remains in perfect sync.
I wonder why you are forgetting the virtues and only focused on the "shady aspects".
hansel_der|4 years ago
the missing piece seems to be the type of car.
if i put down a years income for a new car, the 'authorized garage' has it's perks because the value of holesome repairs is probably greater than the cost.
if on the other hand one has a ten year old, used car, which main purpose is a means of transport, that greasy, dusty garage, were the mechanic will let you know that there was only one screw missing and charges you a few bucks is golden.
Egrodo|4 years ago
temptemptemp111|4 years ago
[deleted]
alanwreath|4 years ago
vishnumohandas|4 years ago
joecool1029|4 years ago
Related regarding feature deployment: I got some negative feedback for dumping on Matrix for announcing Spaces without iOS client support. They should have waited until Element had all their major platforms covered before announcing it. It's maybe an unpopular take but when around 40% of my homeserver's users can't use a major feature, that's a shitty rollout.
olah_1|4 years ago
stereoradonc|4 years ago
stereoradonc|4 years ago
200,000 users for group chat. Unlimited users for voice chat (like clubhouse). 30 users for group video calling. That limit will be increased later. Flawless sync across platforms. Secret chats - the e2ee chats self-destruct between users and stay on the device where it has been initiated. Robust third party clients-that add more functionality to the official app. (I use Utyagram; Plus is another popular mod, but is closed source). Unlimited users for channels - that work as broadcast lists. The lists goes on and on.
vinay427|4 years ago
Is this supposed to be a feature? Telegram themselves claim that this inability to backup chats is at least part of why they don't enable E2EE before mentioning that it allows users choice over data storage, which seems silly in the face of apps that allow for encrypted backups of E2EE messages. [1]
Signal backups are obviously E2EE and can be moved between devices by copying an encrypted blob or directly transferring over Wi-Fi, depending on your platform.
Meanwhile, on Telegram if I reinstall the app all of these chats are gone. If I change phones and posess both devices concurrently, there's still no official way to move chat histories. E2EE feels like a crippled afterthought on Telegram considering so many of the interesting Telegram chat features (or just backups/transfers) don't seem to work with it.
[1] https://telegram.org/faq#q-why-not-just-make-all-chats-39sec...
daredevil_kohai|4 years ago
Saris|4 years ago
dheera|4 years ago
The UI also looks like it was made by a intern who just learned how to use Android Studio, not like something new and cool. The actual text "Telegram" and a magnifying glass button instead of a search bar, hamburger menu instead of your own profile pic, no big fat QR scan icon, ...
yewenjie|4 years ago
traspler|4 years ago
freewizard|4 years ago
[1] https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2BF0UP
[2] https://t.me/durov/142
rvz|4 years ago
At this point Telegram is unrivalled and already has almost everything that WhatApp has, except for E2EE turned on by default.
dt3ft|4 years ago
crossroadsguy|4 years ago
A medical emergency in the family and I was back on WhatsApp in a second.
Signal kept crashing, remained full of UI bugs (the kind I just couldn’t believe is there has been there for months and years; yeah the simple and silly ones), functionality bugs, slightly better than barely useable calling, delayed messages, broken notifications, extremely frustrating and broken encryption key update even when there was no such actual update — while the foundation kept giving us new emojis/stickers and worked on crypto. Nice gesture I reckon. And yeah, still a closed garden.
No opinion really. It’s just how it is. I use Apple’s phone and computer which is proprietary and closed garden by design, effort, and lobbying. Who am I kidding.
So no, I’m not going to say Telegram is shady. Maybe it is but so are others. Maybe not Signal (or is it?). It’s just that Telegram is far from being the personal messaging/communication app, at least around me. It’s an extension of other online communities like subreddits. Discord is eating into that share anyway. It’s used for apartment groups. COVID update channels (especially in India where very high up offices still have public Gmail IDs) and all that. Oh, they do have literally the best mobile and desktop apps among its peers. By many miles.
jaimehrubiks|4 years ago
// Unless I am not aware of any recent change, I tested this last month and don't see any related update ever since.
Which is not the same, and actually, for me is not useful at all. The main difference is that a "chat" does not ring the other participants' phones, which is a must for me to "call" my family either voice or video. You must first tell them through chat that you will create a voice or video room/chat. For 1-on-1 it does have calls, as it rings. For groups, it does not.
webmobdev|4 years ago
HunOL|4 years ago
tptacek|4 years ago
joecool1029|4 years ago
Documentation I mentioned: https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end/video-calls
jhabdas|4 years ago
aledthemathguy|4 years ago
AegirLeet|4 years ago
duskwuff|4 years ago
BTCOG|4 years ago
smolyeet|4 years ago
[deleted]
vetinari|4 years ago
jhabdas|4 years ago
jhabdas|4 years ago
birdyrooster|4 years ago
Trias11|4 years ago
Kudos to Telegram team!
hda111|4 years ago
tptacek|4 years ago
EGreg|4 years ago
It's not open source backend or customizable. But it's probably the most libertarian/freest one from the closed source solutions, that won't kick you off, and the software is very good.
We could consider integrating with them (for example, instead of connecting your mobile via sms, you could connect your telegram and then receive notifications there from some FTL bot).
PROBLEM
Still, of course, keep in mind it's a closed source and proprietary backend:
https://yalantis.com/blog/whats-wrong-telegram-open-api/
If you want an open source network to power "Web 2.0" communities, there aren't many good solutions. Diaspora, Matrix, Mastodon, Inrupt, etc. are just not on the same level as Telegram for regular users.
For Web 1.0 we have Wordpress, which powers 40% of all websites in the world now. But somehow for Web 2.0 there are no good alternatives, so all our public discourse is taking place on privately owned platforms, and now the US government has put out bills seeking to break up big tech. How about trying a more libertarian solution first: open source.
SOLUTION
We've been building something for the last 10 years, and giving it away as open source: https://github.com/Qbix
Here is a demo that we did for Yang's campaign two years ago, and kept it around as a demo, it has payments, video, etc. also but it uses open Web standards like WebRTC and WebPayments to do so, and it's completely open source: https://yang2020.app
PS
Web 3.0 is value transfer and programmable smart contracts, e.g. Ethereum web3 l9brary, etc. That happens to be radically open source (just like Web 1.0) because (for now) these blockhains and the code they run are all public, and you are encouraged to verify your smart contracts on EtherScan, etc.
truth_|4 years ago
It's refreshing to see original thoughts in illustration.
beigeoak|4 years ago
[deleted]
excalibur|4 years ago
ClumsyPilot|4 years ago
Teams takes 500MB of ram and pegs a quad-core cpu to 70% to updates some smileys
skinnymuch|4 years ago