as someone who struggled with this - my advice is pretty simple: "just say yes." Anytime anyone asks if you're interested in doing anything, just say yes. In my experience the problems sort of just resolved themselves. though this is much harder than it sounds. I used to be a huge flake because I'd always say no (for valid reasons, such as I just wasn't interested or wasn't really feeling the person that much), but saying yes and frequently being around someone (or a group) made some of the issues resolve themselves somehow.
Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things.
finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
Honestly, Covid-19 showed me there are 'friends' and there are friends. It changed my perspective of some of my friendships.
I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort.
I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up.
I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
One of the culture gaps between USA and other countries is how easily USA conflate fair weather friends/acquaintances with real friendship. Weird from that perspective when someone acts like they want to be friends with everyone because if there is actual commitment then you literally can't be close friends with too many people, you wouldn't have enough time to regularly connect.
Outside of school where friends basically just enjoyed each others company, I would say most friendships now are made in the work related environments so there is often a layer of politics involved that make it difficult for everyone to see who is sincere and who is just networking. Nobody knows how they stand with each other so they are hesitant to develop strong relationships and trust with others.
Traditionally these bonds came about through other things like neighbors, communities and religion, but people are constantly moving for work, and society is more pluralistic (and secular) than ever so most don't begin to lay roots until they have a spouse in these roots aren't being laid, and there hasn't really been anything new that fills that gap outside of where you work.
What Covid showed me was that nearly all of my friends were people I had friendly working relationships with. A ton of my friends were from church where we served in different capacities together and enjoyed working together. And I had a lot of similar relationships at work. But with stay at home covid, I found that I didn't yearn to see these people still. I'm glad when we do stuff together, we enjoy doing so. But I don't miss them. And I found there was a small handful of people that were worth making the effort to actually go on socially distanced walks or whatever to still just hang out.
I am never going back to that super busy over programmed life style where my friends are just the people it's best to get along with friends-like because you're together a lot.
I had a similar experience to you. I'm trying to be forgiving however, because COVID brought a lot of depression, and people going through depression are inwardly focused and can struggle to maintain relationships. As their friend, I want to be there for them when they're able to focus on us again.
Yeah I had a similar experience and I knew a few people in the same boat, but funnily enough I forged stronger relationships with people that are more genuine, so at the end of the day I feel that I’m better off
This comment is really ambiguous to me. Your friends wouldn't hang out because of the pandemic? If you were criticizing that decision, surely you'd write that more explicitly. But you make it sound like they refuse to spare time, in which case, surely you'd clarify that it was not because of the virus, but then you'd have to explain what you mean by "Covid showed me...".
I’m in your exact same shoes and it hurts so damn bad. I honestly don’t trust the majority of the people I considered friends before the pandemic because of it. It became glaringly obvious what the future was going to be in those relationships. I still don’t know exactly what to do going forward now that there’s a new sense of normalcy in the US
This is likely just as simple as "Men are more likely to move away from established friend groups to pursue careers and struggle to make new connects wherever they land"
I find I am so overwhelmed by getting by at work and by taking care of all the assorted tasks I need to in order to keep functioning that I have literally no energy left to socialize or find people
to hang out with. Has the world gotten more chaotic and require more
of us to stay afloat or is it just me?
Don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my late 20s.
My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends.
I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc.
I wish the article had some info on the potential cause. I could only speculate.
Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
I'm there. Never in my life have I had a friend even close to "best man" material, in either direction. For whatever reason, I've never been able to maintain friendships for more than a couple of years. Something always goes wrong, or folks just lose interest. In my mid forties now, it seems obvious that this is due to personality flaws of my own.
I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife.
When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint.
After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion.
At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows.
My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
> Just guessing: smaller and broken families, more time behind screens, less male-only and female-only spaces, more mobility.
For the first two: the US divorce rate was at its near peak around the time that the linked article's poll shows that male friendships were at their high mark[1]. The average US family size has also not changed significantly since 1990[2].
Put another way: there were more "broken" families in 1990, at a time when the poll says that more men had closer friendships, and the average family size hasn't swung in any direction that would suggest any relationship.
People will laugh but playing golf has increased my social circle by a wide amount. I play golf with different people all the time. I play 2-3 times a week. We have a core group of people 10-12 that always play together. Would join in golf trips going to play different places around the world. Huge age difference in the group. People in mid 20's all the way up to some who just turned 80. Gotta find that hobby and then find that group of people.
Decided to actively solve for this problem in late 30s after attending funerals where the guy had to use some of the funeral home staff as palbearers, and I decided it was important to me to finish being able to convene a party of 6.
How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect.
I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious.
The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating.
Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool.
I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
I actually agree. I joined a fraternal organization as a young man on a whim.. It's great. The best part is moving to a new area I had an automatic "in".
Actively deciding to stop drinking kind of did this anyways. Friends are great, but they're also a huge time sync. Also, as you get older you realize that most people aren't really your friends like they were in high school or college. I had one person I thought was a "friend" turn on a dime and start spamming me with horrible text messages. This was a person I talked to every day and worked on a few cool side projects with, one day randomly accused me of all this insane political stuff... The whole experience was jolting, pretty sure I'm going to take a break from friends for a while.
I'm lucky that I have a lot of friends through D&D and other in-person group gaming.
As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
First, that does seem a bit funny to me, especially if you're married. It (being hit on) certainly would not be the first thing I suspected if a gay friend asked me to go have a drink. On the other hand, there have definitely been situations where I would have liked to ask a woman to go have a platonic drink, and didn't because of a concern she would get the wrong idea (I'm married too).
I stopped keeping in contact with my friends when I realized that it was more trouble than it was worth. I grew up. They didn't. I'd rather spend time nurturing my kids than talk about the latest infantilized product that they're consuming or their furrogate babies. Someone might ask "Maybe you need to find new friends," but why? I don't need to validate my identity or views. Most social hobbies are tedious timesinks. Other parents make shortsighted, contagious decisions concerning their kids behavior; Why should I even open that attack surface? It's all just so tiresome.
I lived in vehicles for ~9 years and dwindled down to 3 elderly, frail, sane homeless guys as friends (mostly, it was me helping them and I didn't expect anything in return).
- Be a friend to have friends.
- Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot.
- Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob.
- Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc.
- Be early or late.
- Always leave while everyone is still having a good time.
- Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately.
- Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls.
- All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs.
- If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you).
- Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible.
- Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries.
- When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event.
- Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you.
- You're only as good as your last impression.
- Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick.
- Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion.
- Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities.
- Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!
[+] [-] endisneigh|4 years ago|reply
Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things.
finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
[+] [-] colmvp|4 years ago|reply
I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort.
I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up.
I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
[+] [-] cercatrova|4 years ago|reply
You were expecting people to meet you during a pandemic? Or am I misunderstanding?
[+] [-] nazgulnarsil|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ayngg|4 years ago|reply
Traditionally these bonds came about through other things like neighbors, communities and religion, but people are constantly moving for work, and society is more pluralistic (and secular) than ever so most don't begin to lay roots until they have a spouse in these roots aren't being laid, and there hasn't really been anything new that fills that gap outside of where you work.
[+] [-] travisgriggs|4 years ago|reply
What Covid showed me was that nearly all of my friends were people I had friendly working relationships with. A ton of my friends were from church where we served in different capacities together and enjoyed working together. And I had a lot of similar relationships at work. But with stay at home covid, I found that I didn't yearn to see these people still. I'm glad when we do stuff together, we enjoy doing so. But I don't miss them. And I found there was a small handful of people that were worth making the effort to actually go on socially distanced walks or whatever to still just hang out.
I am never going back to that super busy over programmed life style where my friends are just the people it's best to get along with friends-like because you're together a lot.
[+] [-] sidpatil|4 years ago|reply
This sounds like a sunk-cost fallacy to me. You've already pointed out that friendship length isn't correlated with friendship quality.
[+] [-] ballarak|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmoriarty|4 years ago|reply
Many people this past year were terrified and traumatized.
[+] [-] colanderman|4 years ago|reply
Some others would be out gallivanting every day (per their socials) and yet couldn't find a half an hour to hang out. I gave up on those. No loss.
[+] [-] ostenning|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] happytoexplain|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] werber|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bluefirebrand|4 years ago|reply
That's what happened to me, anyways
[+] [-] Aqueous|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zahrc|4 years ago|reply
My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends.
I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc.
I’d say that’s pretty normal and expected
[+] [-] version_five|4 years ago|reply
Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
[+] [-] schwartzworld|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elorant|4 years ago|reply
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...
[+] [-] jdhn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nate_meurer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 46756e|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 8f2ab37a-ed6c|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ab-dm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theshadowknows|4 years ago|reply
When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint.
After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion.
At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows.
My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
[+] [-] raarts|4 years ago|reply
Worse for males because women are more social-oriented.
[+] [-] FooBarBizBazz|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woodruffw|4 years ago|reply
For the first two: the US divorce rate was at its near peak around the time that the linked article's poll shows that male friendships were at their high mark[1]. The average US family size has also not changed significantly since 1990[2].
Put another way: there were more "broken" families in 1990, at a time when the poll says that more men had closer friendships, and the average family size hasn't swung in any direction that would suggest any relationship.
[1]: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-us-divorce-rate-has-hit-a-50-...
[2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...
[+] [-] dkdk8283|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tmh88j|4 years ago|reply
How do any of those 3 things relate to one another? This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.
[+] [-] Grakel|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jml7c5|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmckelvy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wittycardio|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tkojames|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flax|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] motohagiography|4 years ago|reply
How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect.
I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious.
The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating.
Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool.
I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
[+] [-] iammisc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] germinalphrase|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 71a54xd|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] thebooktocome|4 years ago|reply
As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
[+] [-] version_five|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gedy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikhailfranco|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway89652|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] failwhaleshark|4 years ago|reply
- Be a friend to have friends.
- Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot.
- Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob.
- Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc.
- Be early or late.
- Always leave while everyone is still having a good time.
- Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately.
- Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls.
- All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs.
- If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you).
- Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible.
- Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries.
- When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event.
- Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you.
- You're only as good as your last impression.
- Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick.
- Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion.
- Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities.
- Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!
[+] [-] Proven|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] joelbondurant|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]