In the startup, tech community, if you get fired, you become a persona non grata. That means all the social circles I had booted me out.
The article says this happened "many years ago." I can't imagine the part above applying any longer with the different ways in which people socialize in the tech industry even in just the last few years.
Even folks who've done pretty shady things, are potty mouthed psychopaths, or who have caused significant scandal aren't getting totally ejected from "the community" (partly because there isn't just one tech community, but still).
Yeah, I was dubious about that statement too. I think that the author took it really hard, and got a little paranoid. They were also probably embarrassed about it, and found it hard to talk about; especially as they had signed a disclaimer.
Maybe this person hadn't had much chance to network beyond their coworkers or people otherwise connected to the company? Depending on how they got fired, I could see how that might create a sense of being excluded from the bit of the community they could see.
In other words, maybe they hadn't yet come to appreciate that there are multiple tech communities with all kinds of diverse characters.
> "My boss the previous week had told me what a great coder I was"
> "You cannot use the employer who fired you as a reference."
Why couldn't he use his boss as a reference?
> "if you get fired, you become a persona non grata."
I find this hard to believe. How would people even find out about it? And is there no one in "the tech community?" (as if there's only one) who knows that people are human and make mistakes? Surely he would have friends in the community who would see the whole picture.
> "I know there’s no techie blacklist but the only 2 jobs I could find were as a spam engineer or in a totally different industry."
Again, I find this difficult to believe. If he was really a great coder, and came clean with his mistakes, possibly presenting a plan for why he wouldn't make them again, I don't see any reason an employer wouldn't take a risk on him, provided he's got chops.
It seems like most of what this article says would only be true if you were fired very prominently from a high-profile role, or if you had an egregious lapse in judgment that lead to serious problems at your company.
I once got fired for giving my boss the advice to "shred" their drive (it was their last day). Someone overheard this incorrectly and thought that I said "on my last day, that I'd shred all the companies drives".
It was my word against his and company's revenues were down significantly. They put me on non-paid leave and a week later when they "investigated" the matter, they fired me, but by then I had new a job with a much better company.
It was a blessing. I learned more at this new place and earned more too. It was later acquired by Adobe (mental stagnation).
Getting fired NEVER lead to me being outcasted from the local tech community. It instead improved my life.
I agree. Never have been outcast from the tech community. Actually the opposite. People reached to me about possible leads.
If you network properly when you have a job (and otherwise don't need something from people), usually they are willing to help you out. Build your network before you need it.
FWIW there are some similarities with getting a bad review in a large bureaucratic company (I know for HN readers this either doesn't apply, or they wish it didn't!), one common thread that I would emphasize is that even if the headline reason for the firing or crappy review (FOCR) is complete BS or political or whatever, there is very likely something that you did have control over that either precipitated the FOCR or created an excuse for it, but the immediate shame/rage/pain of the whole FOCR may make that hard to see. Expect to need to sit on the experience for several years before the full value to you can be gleaned. Having been through this in a couple of guises I have definitely learned some real lessons about both myself and the behaviour of teams, managers, and companies.
I suspect the same can be true for some startup failures... maybe in my next adventure I will find out.
It only hurts the first time. After you get fired/quit many times, it's like taking out trash for you. Developing some confidence goes a great way.
I mean, look, the first time I had to throw out my sketches in the dumpster because I thought they sucked it was a painful experience. But after a while I grew detached to the sketch, which allowed me to concentrate on my vision more than the actual piece of paper.
There is a major difference between being fired in the US and for instance most countries in Europe, where workers rights are very strongly protected.
In the latter case, it is often very hard, time consuming, painful and costly to fire someone. However comfortable this may seem to from an employee perspective, if an employer decides to fire you they must really, really badly want to get rid of you. And that can seriously damage your reputation.
The result is that instead of firing people, both parties usually make a deal: the employee leaves "voluntarily" and gets a big fat final paycheck. Technically no firing has taken place and the whole process is way less confrontational. Employers will gladly give you a reference and keep quiet about why you were let go in exchange for a smooth exit.
You'll be hard pressed to find someone in the tech industry in Europe who has ever been fired.
There's a few conflicting things here. One is that you fire an employee then moment it becomes obvious they will have to be fired, so a firing should be quick. Another is that performance problems should be addressed - an employee should know if their current performance is not acceptable. Finally, you don't want an employee (especially programmers) to know that they will be fired, or they attack you from within.
Of course, it does seem like management was very passive-aggressive here. Not good.
A quick edit - I HATE the term "passive-aggressive". All usually means (in the workplace) is "not actually doing their job until a crisis hits".
Yes, this happens. I'm speaking anonymously here, so take my word for it if you care to, but I know of 2 specific instances in 2 YC companies where employees received 2-3 months severance. There is another recent case (non-yc company) where severance took the form of high single digit vested equity for a not-gelling founder.
Particularly with founder or near-founder departures, fair severance can be used to keep a company legally covered down the road. Consider if Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss had just been paid back in the day.
He should have negotiated a positive-to-neutral fact-based reference (good reviews, verification of salary, departure by his volition-- a revision-of-fact but one that companies will usually support) in the severance process. Chances are, he would have gotten it. This would have mitigated the career damage and gotten him a good job much sooner.
Remember that a severance offer is a starting point. If the only thing you want to add in negotiation is something that doesn't cost the company money-- good reference and a revision of the record to say you left voluntarily-- they'll usually give it, unless you did something illegal and they're afraid to give you a good referral for liability reasons.
Getting fired is something that happens to a lot of good people... for all kinds of bizarre and stupid reasons. I wouldn't mention it, as a general policy, but I really doubt that he couldn't find a job because he was fired. He probably became insecure and that did him in. He probably was also too loose-lipped about his feelings toward the previous employer, which is even more damaging because even if a past employer is terrible, one shouldn't let it on in an interview.
"Persona non grata" in the tech community after a job goes bad... that's just bizarre. In my experience, people familiar with startups are the most forgiving of jobs that went bad or ended suddenly, for the obvious reason that a lot of startups fail.
Could you go into more detail about how to ask for these sorts of things and what extras you might throw in so you have something you can cut when negotiating?
This strikes me as the sort of thing I should have prepared in advance, just in case. Should I ever be fired for cause I expect I'll be too upset to think about what to ask for and how to say it so I better work out the basics now.
>He probably was also too loose-lipped about his feelings toward the previous employer, which is even more damaging because even if a past employer is terrible, one shouldn't let it on in an interview.
Another thing that IMO ultimately in the long term should be fixed. Not being hired because you criticized a previous employer is worse than being fired for criticizing the current one IMO.
I can't believe how much more serious everything seems to be in the States.
Is this story just exaggerated or is it really this bad? I've never personally been fired but having job opportunities being so severely limited due to being fired once seems like an impossibility in Australia.
I'd say that if you got fired over here you'd even quite likely be able to use the employer as a reference (unless you did something totally horrible)
I don't know about firing, but certainly getting laid-off is really looked down on, regardless of circumstances. I've heard that employers do significant background checks now. Low credit scores are a red flag. Arrests are also a red flag. Not convictions, but arrests.
The social thing sounded a bit weird to me. But then, most of the people I've worked with either base their social scene around their work, or around something else (e.g. church). If you're not in one of those groups, you'll simply find yourself growing ever more distant.
I've seen many people let go where it was a complete shock to them. One day they are cranking, next day they are out one the street. The problem is management often does not want to give warnings, or talk about how the employee can improve. From management's perspective, any warning time is time they are going to be out looking for a job, using the phones, printers, faxes etc.
To say it is a messed up situation is an understatement.
to clarify on the reference - i'm assuming she only mean employment history, and I thought employers were only allowed to say the dates of your employment and validate you did work at a company. Also I think you would have to explain to the new company your interviewing the gaps in your employment history, if you didin't list it at all.
As for the reference I assume you would ask a person first if you are able to use them as a reference prior to listing them as a reference. So if your manager fires you for reason xyz, I doubt you'd want to use them as a reference
Can anyone explain to me this part: "do not mention that we fired you for 7 years"? Why would anyone have you sign something like this? What's the importance of this?
It means that you didn't do anything wrong but you're fired because someone doesn't like you, or some manager is mad about something and needs to fire someone to make a point. So don't say anything about it because we don't want to deal with bad publicity or potential legal problems.
[+] [-] petercooper|14 years ago|reply
In the startup, tech community, if you get fired, you become a persona non grata. That means all the social circles I had booted me out.
The article says this happened "many years ago." I can't imagine the part above applying any longer with the different ways in which people socialize in the tech industry even in just the last few years.
Even folks who've done pretty shady things, are potty mouthed psychopaths, or who have caused significant scandal aren't getting totally ejected from "the community" (partly because there isn't just one tech community, but still).
[+] [-] wisty|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] azza-bazoo|14 years ago|reply
In other words, maybe they hadn't yet come to appreciate that there are multiple tech communities with all kinds of diverse characters.
[+] [-] notJim|14 years ago|reply
> "My boss the previous week had told me what a great coder I was" > "You cannot use the employer who fired you as a reference."
Why couldn't he use his boss as a reference?
> "if you get fired, you become a persona non grata."
I find this hard to believe. How would people even find out about it? And is there no one in "the tech community?" (as if there's only one) who knows that people are human and make mistakes? Surely he would have friends in the community who would see the whole picture.
> "I know there’s no techie blacklist but the only 2 jobs I could find were as a spam engineer or in a totally different industry."
Again, I find this difficult to believe. If he was really a great coder, and came clean with his mistakes, possibly presenting a plan for why he wouldn't make them again, I don't see any reason an employer wouldn't take a risk on him, provided he's got chops.
It seems like most of what this article says would only be true if you were fired very prominently from a high-profile role, or if you had an egregious lapse in judgment that lead to serious problems at your company.
[+] [-] eekfuh|14 years ago|reply
It was my word against his and company's revenues were down significantly. They put me on non-paid leave and a week later when they "investigated" the matter, they fired me, but by then I had new a job with a much better company.
It was a blessing. I learned more at this new place and earned more too. It was later acquired by Adobe (mental stagnation).
Getting fired NEVER lead to me being outcasted from the local tech community. It instead improved my life.
[+] [-] ecspike|14 years ago|reply
If you network properly when you have a job (and otherwise don't need something from people), usually they are willing to help you out. Build your network before you need it.
[+] [-] pacaro|14 years ago|reply
I suspect the same can be true for some startup failures... maybe in my next adventure I will find out.
[+] [-] mannicken|14 years ago|reply
I mean, look, the first time I had to throw out my sketches in the dumpster because I thought they sucked it was a painful experience. But after a while I grew detached to the sketch, which allowed me to concentrate on my vision more than the actual piece of paper.
[+] [-] rickmb|14 years ago|reply
In the latter case, it is often very hard, time consuming, painful and costly to fire someone. However comfortable this may seem to from an employee perspective, if an employer decides to fire you they must really, really badly want to get rid of you. And that can seriously damage your reputation.
The result is that instead of firing people, both parties usually make a deal: the employee leaves "voluntarily" and gets a big fat final paycheck. Technically no firing has taken place and the whole process is way less confrontational. Employers will gladly give you a reference and keep quiet about why you were let go in exchange for a smooth exit.
You'll be hard pressed to find someone in the tech industry in Europe who has ever been fired.
[+] [-] nolliesnom|14 years ago|reply
Sounds like an unhealthy work environment. Management was pointing fingers at other management? Lame. Getting fired should never be a surprise.
[+] [-] wisty|14 years ago|reply
Of course, it does seem like management was very passive-aggressive here. Not good.
A quick edit - I HATE the term "passive-aggressive". All usually means (in the workplace) is "not actually doing their job until a crisis hits".
[+] [-] j_baker|14 years ago|reply
She was fired from a startup and received a severance? Does that ever happen these days?
[+] [-] severance_temp|14 years ago|reply
Particularly with founder or near-founder departures, fair severance can be used to keep a company legally covered down the road. Consider if Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss had just been paid back in the day.
[+] [-] also_fired|14 years ago|reply
It actually happens MOST of the time in professional contexts.
"Severance" is usually no big deal, it's like 1-3 months worth of paychecks.
[+] [-] michaelochurch|14 years ago|reply
Remember that a severance offer is a starting point. If the only thing you want to add in negotiation is something that doesn't cost the company money-- good reference and a revision of the record to say you left voluntarily-- they'll usually give it, unless you did something illegal and they're afraid to give you a good referral for liability reasons.
Getting fired is something that happens to a lot of good people... for all kinds of bizarre and stupid reasons. I wouldn't mention it, as a general policy, but I really doubt that he couldn't find a job because he was fired. He probably became insecure and that did him in. He probably was also too loose-lipped about his feelings toward the previous employer, which is even more damaging because even if a past employer is terrible, one shouldn't let it on in an interview.
"Persona non grata" in the tech community after a job goes bad... that's just bizarre. In my experience, people familiar with startups are the most forgiving of jobs that went bad or ended suddenly, for the obvious reason that a lot of startups fail.
[+] [-] Sukotto|14 years ago|reply
This strikes me as the sort of thing I should have prepared in advance, just in case. Should I ever be fired for cause I expect I'll be too upset to think about what to ask for and how to say it so I better work out the basics now.
[+] [-] yuhong|14 years ago|reply
Another thing that IMO ultimately in the long term should be fixed. Not being hired because you criticized a previous employer is worse than being fired for criticizing the current one IMO.
[+] [-] dools|14 years ago|reply
Is this story just exaggerated or is it really this bad? I've never personally been fired but having job opportunities being so severely limited due to being fired once seems like an impossibility in Australia.
I'd say that if you got fired over here you'd even quite likely be able to use the employer as a reference (unless you did something totally horrible)
[+] [-] georgieporgie|14 years ago|reply
The social thing sounded a bit weird to me. But then, most of the people I've worked with either base their social scene around their work, or around something else (e.g. church). If you're not in one of those groups, you'll simply find yourself growing ever more distant.
[+] [-] Hominem|14 years ago|reply
To say it is a messed up situation is an understatement.
[+] [-] angryasian|14 years ago|reply
As for the reference I assume you would ask a person first if you are able to use them as a reference prior to listing them as a reference. So if your manager fires you for reason xyz, I doubt you'd want to use them as a reference
[+] [-] exit|14 years ago|reply
http://www.codebelay.com/blog/wp-content/themes/thesis_18/cu...
looks like a rotation image
[+] [-] wccrawford|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cshesse|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pagekalisedown|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] also_fired|14 years ago|reply