"Free Democracies" are passing the weirdest restrictions. It's mind boggling just how much power our governments are allowed to wield. I'm not even a libertarian and I think this is government overreach. So you're going to allow people to work out in gyms, but playing music that's too fast is somehow too dangerous to allow? Come on. If it was a real problem you'd just close the gyms again.
This is what we call "compromise"; when you've got a reasonable position on one side, a reasonable position on the other, and the solution is to meet in the middle and produce policy which is totally unreasonable and makes no one happy.
There's a tendency with people in authority to want to be seen as engaged and acting responsibly, so they "do something" such as take a half step towards the more extreme response, even if rationally the half-step does nothing.
I don't follow this argument. By your own argument, the government could simply close the gyms - and it even has the power! But because they feared political backlash (this wonderful thing called "democracy"), the government made a stupid compromise and settled with a lesser (and less effective) restriction, and this proves that the government has too much power?
A democracy is just government by its people. People will try to pass any sort of law they fancy will do the thing they want it to do, whether or not it actually will is besides the point. The quality of the government is still going to be a factor of the quality of the people that a government can be drawn from, and legislative branches are often the most powerful in a free society precisely because if they could speak with one voice, there’s effectively no law they could not pass. That’s why they are bodies of distinguishable and accountable people instead of individuals.
I think the problem here is democracies attempting to exercise restraint in response to popular concerns about overreach. I'm pretty sure the more effective response from a public health standpoint, and probably the starting point of the negotiation, would be to close cluster-friendly places like indoor gyms hard and early. Some special interest - gym owners, restaurants, whatever - gets in and says, but but we pRoMiSe to behave. What happens next in too many democracies is unfortunately this: some wishy-washy middle ground is negotiated that is politically acceptable but ineffective in reality, the epidemic gets out of control and then you get REAL overreach for a really long time, like long-term travel restrictions, curfews, etc.
South Korean here and I just wanted to add some thoughts. The real reasoning for the ridiculous ban is because they've been shutting down the gyms whenever the numbers spike but can't anymore because the business owners are in a desperate state because of the prolonged shutdowns. So it's their way of saying please don't to the gyms while avoiding a total outlash from the gym owners.
Obviously how well we're managing the pandemic while protecting civil liberty and privacy is a hot political discussion. We managed to keep things mostly under control and prevented total medical system collapse and kept the mortality rate low, while on the other side we didn't put nearly as enough resources into securing the vaccines so we're paying the price now.
I'm glad we are finally at a point where that skepticism around strict covid policies, such as in this thread, can be expressed without being immediately attacked. Questioning anything 6 months ago would have gotten you shut down or banned, depending on the forum.
I don't know about that. I received some negative comments recently for asking for evidence that wearing a mask, while outdoors, while socially distanced was ever effective.
People still have their egos and identities attached to this, seeing disagreement as a personal or political attack.
Come on. Every COVID-related thread throughout the last year here has been absolutely crawling with deniers, misinformation, conspiracy theories, rants about freedom, anti-vaxism, you name it--basically everything that you wrap up in that "skepticism" euphemism. I can tell you how trying to combat all this garbage has been: Both sides got the roller-coaster of up and down votes. It's just absurdly politically charged.
In this case, the authorities clearly acknowledging the difficulty for businesses, looking for tradeoffs, trying to keep them open while making compromises to at least reduce the risk. But no... Even that's not enough! Everything is black-and-white now: You either have zero restrictions or it's authoritarian overreach.
There is absolutely no question that SK's strict prevention measures are the cause of that. They were very strict from day one, no doubt because they were hit hard by SARS-CoV-1.
It's behavioural modification, and it actually works. The aim is to encourage people to do certain things. To that end, restricting various things which on their own seem nonsensical, actually becomes justified if it changes behaviour.
What's not to understand? The numbers in Korea are low because everyone is willing to sacrifice their personal freedom and convenience for the common good. They vigilantly wear masks, socially distance, follow guidelines, and abstain from K-Pop dancing at gyms and running fast on the treadmill when their health departments ask that of them. Americans will happily let more people die if it means they get to go to the gym without a mask. It's really that simple.
Say goodbye to Gangnam Style, treadmill running for next 2 weeks: Some Level 4 distancing rules being called ‘illogical, nonsensical’
"Under Level 4 rules, taking showers within fitness club premises is prohibited and only a limited number of users are allowed in each area at a time.
At the same time, the running speed on treadmills is capped at 6 kilometers per hour. Music played at group exercise classes at fitness clubs cannot exceed 120 beats per minute."
I was curious what the vaccination rate was in South Korea, and was surprised to see that their first-vaccination rate was below 30% just two weeks ago [1].
Paradoxical but not really surprising, because the countries in desperate need of vaccination are those hit hard by COVID-19 anyway. SK vaccination rate has been comparably slower than some other countries but still in accordance with the goverment's original plan: it went from 7% to ~30% over the course of a single month of June for example.
They are limiting pretty much all high-intensity exercise in an attempt to prevent the spread by way of heavy breathing.
Sure, the headline sounds ridiculous to my American ears, but I wonder if there is a cultural-specific reason for the music. For example, perhaps synchronized dance is an extremely common exercise class in Korea.
I understand the intent, but if it's too risky to be in a gym with people working out in sync with 120bpm, then my personal risk assessment would say it's too risky to be in the gym, period. I wouldn't feel any better just because the music was 90bpm. Edit: Then again, humans are notoriously bad at evaluating risk, so I may be way off base. :-)
I’ll offer a potential explanation - they may have had outbreaks specifically around high effort fitness spinning classes but they wish to keep the gyms open for older people and people with disabilities for whom it’s their only exercise. It’s cutting quite a line for sure but often there is a very specific context for rules like this - think about all those times when you’ve had to go “what happened for them to have to put this sign up”
One of the first surprising cases I remember in the US was a Washington-based church choir singing while following all concurrently enforced precautions.
I don’t expect they were doing intense dances or movements at rehearsals.
The danger is simply prolonged exposure in spaces with low air flow.
If this isn’t illustrative of the tradeoff between freedom/individual liberties and overbearing government imposed restrictions, I don’t know what is. This particular type of restriction ends up being acceptable to some because they aren’t the ones losing out on a freedom they exercise, while others feel like they’re losing more relative to others - it’s a classic tyranny of the majority. We have a solution for all of this - it is to educate people but let people do what they want. Those who think the risks are too great should constrain their own lives, instead of demanding that everyone else change all of society to create an acceptable risk profile for those who are risk-averse.
> "...educate people but let people do what they want. Those who think the risks are too great should constrain their own lives, instead of demanding that everyone else change all of society to create an acceptable risk profile for those who are risk-averse."
yes please.
meanwhile in LA, at least half the people are still wearing masks outside. whatever floats your boat, but i can't help but shake my head each time. if folks really wanted the mask for more than performative reasons, they'd wear it at home and at friends homes. how many maskers actually did that? probably less than 1%, even though that's where it would have the most effect. waiting for that study, though i don't have high hopes since it'd counter the prevailing mediopolitical narrative.
[+] [-] BitwiseFool|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 015a|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawayboise|4 years ago|reply
Or such is my observation.
[+] [-] yongjik|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nszceta|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SllX|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ridaj|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jeofken|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sugardough|4 years ago|reply
Obviously how well we're managing the pandemic while protecting civil liberty and privacy is a hot political discussion. We managed to keep things mostly under control and prevented total medical system collapse and kept the mortality rate low, while on the other side we didn't put nearly as enough resources into securing the vaccines so we're paying the price now.
[+] [-] hntrowaway837|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colordrops|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iaHN|4 years ago|reply
People still have their egos and identities attached to this, seeing disagreement as a personal or political attack.
[+] [-] ryandrake|4 years ago|reply
In this case, the authorities clearly acknowledging the difficulty for businesses, looking for tradeoffs, trying to keep them open while making compromises to at least reduce the risk. But no... Even that's not enough! Everything is black-and-white now: You either have zero restrictions or it's authoritarian overreach.
[+] [-] hntrowaway837|4 years ago|reply
I don't understand, I really don't. I anybody can explain, I'd very much appreciate.
[+] [-] kube-system|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dubcanada|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thinkingemote|4 years ago|reply
It's also "optics" which is mainly psychological.
[+] [-] pie420|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bluescrn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colejohnson66|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nkozyra|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nielsbot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kube-system|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] blakesterz|4 years ago|reply
Say goodbye to Gangnam Style, treadmill running for next 2 weeks: Some Level 4 distancing rules being called ‘illogical, nonsensical’
"Under Level 4 rules, taking showers within fitness club premises is prohibited and only a limited number of users are allowed in each area at a time.
At the same time, the running speed on treadmills is capped at 6 kilometers per hour. Music played at group exercise classes at fitness clubs cannot exceed 120 beats per minute."
[+] [-] agubelu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] halfdan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] briefcomment|4 years ago|reply
[1] https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1451900/south-korea-vaccinatio...
[+] [-] lifthrasiir|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] metalliqaz|4 years ago|reply
Sure, the headline sounds ridiculous to my American ears, but I wonder if there is a cultural-specific reason for the music. For example, perhaps synchronized dance is an extremely common exercise class in Korea.
[+] [-] daveslash|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taurath|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] t-writescode|4 years ago|reply
I don’t expect they were doing intense dances or movements at rehearsals.
The danger is simply prolonged exposure in spaces with low air flow.
Edit: I’m not a doctor, I could be wrong.
[+] [-] dzhiurgis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lifthrasiir|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Black101|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gotoeleven|4 years ago|reply
I hear california is considering banning birthday cakes with more than 5 candles because the wind to blow them out can spread covid
[+] [-] aunty_helen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eappleby|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phendrenad2|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaysea|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clairity|4 years ago|reply
yes please.
meanwhile in LA, at least half the people are still wearing masks outside. whatever floats your boat, but i can't help but shake my head each time. if folks really wanted the mask for more than performative reasons, they'd wear it at home and at friends homes. how many maskers actually did that? probably less than 1%, even though that's where it would have the most effect. waiting for that study, though i don't have high hopes since it'd counter the prevailing mediopolitical narrative.