I suffer from wrist and finger pain when typing, sometimes to where I can't type without excruciating pain. Here are my experiences.
I have the Drop version of the Planck, as well as the ErgoDox EZ, the Drop ALT, Logitech G915, two Havit low-profile gaming keyboards (TKL and full), and the AA battery Apple TKL. Previously, I had a Das (Cherry MX Brown).
I have relatively big hands (4" across the knuckles, 9" base to tip) and relatively wide shoulders (20+").
I suffer from wrist and finger pain when typing. Lower-profile is better for me, in general.
The best, overall, is the ErgoDox EZ, but takes up a ton of space and requires serious dedication to learn to type well on. Also, the thumb movements make this a bad keyboard for people who have thumb arthritis.
The Apple is best for finger pain and typing speed but not great for wrist pain.
The low profile mechanicals (Havit, Logitech) are fine. I get some finger pain and some wrist pain, but not a ton. They don't feel great to use.
The Planck is the only standard key switch mechanical keyboard I can type on without hand & wrist pain. In terms of overall pain, it's second only to the ErgoDox EZ. I also retain more typing speed than the ErgoDox EZ. I find the frozen in place hand positioning better than trying to use the Drop ALT in a keyboard tray.
As you also rightly point out, there's a learning curve with a move to these kinds of keyboards but since you're on an ergodox, the gap should be significantly smaller.
My daily driver is a Diverge 3 (company no longer operating), but the best one so far. Close in, thumb clusters with few, easily accessible keys. The thumb can really only access 3-4 keys easily.
The real one I want to go after is the Dactyl Manuform... but omg there's no nice way to get at that thing. And the cost is so high just to 'try it out'.
As a programmer I used to suffer from wrist and thumb pain long ago, tried many different keyboards as well.
Eventually, for this and other reasons, I decided I should type _less_, and started to look for a less verbose programming language than C which was my goto language at the time. I settled on a ML-like language for its terseness and performance. The pain went away (alongside my collection of fancy keyboard) and I had even forgotten that I experienced such a pain.
Other factors might have helped of course (maybe I started to exercise more? I also tried to learn the guitar at the time, also in an attempt to fight the pain).
So, YMMV, but in any case I wanted to let you know that there is no fatality in this.
I've been using the ErgoDox EZ for maybe 3-4 years now, and my experience hasn't matched yours in a few regards:
Thumb arthritis: I've started to develop arthritis in my thumbs when grasping, and the EZ doesn't trigger it at all.
Effort to learn: I wouldn't say "serious dedication", but it did take an effort. I had a few bad habits, namely pressing 'b' with the wrong hand (can't do that on a split), and having to look when typing the numbers. It took me a couple days of feeling like I couldn't type, and maybe two weeks before I felt like I was 100% comfortable with it.
I do agree that the thumb clusters, other than the two primary keys, are basically useless. I have some VERY infrequently used keys mapped to them (pg up/down, alt). It also does take a lot of space to use and to carry.
I use a customized keyboard layout particular to my workflow with i3 and vim. I'm SUPER happy with it.
I've been very tempted to try the Moonlander, but I also really don't want to go back to labeled keys. My current keys are blank. If they had a blank set of caps, I'd have ordered it.
- Even though Moonlander has approximately same layout as Ergodox, the "margins" around the keyboard are a lot smaller, so I noticed it fit a lot better on my desk. Small thing, but I felt it made difference for me.
- The thumb clusters are more ergonomic for me on the Moonlander
- I still often feel that I would like to have an extra row of buttons on the Ergodox/Moonlander, instead of the layer system. Oh, well ...
I get wrist pain typing on normal keyboards, but I've found my main issue is negative wrist angle. I have been using those silicone roll up keyboards [1] for almost two decades now.
At first we got one because our keyboard broke and it was all they had at the Radio Shack in our small town. Then I grew to like it because it is nearly silent to type on. And as I've gotten older, I've found that I don't get wrist pain when using it, unlike every other keyboard I've tried.
I know people go on about the greatness of split ergonomic keyboards, but if you are like me and those just don't really do it for you, I'd suggest giving one of these a try. They are sort of love it or hate it, with a heavy skew towards hate it though.
I had the ErgoDox EZ for a while, switched it out for a redox (https://github.com/mattdibi/redox-keyboard) which I find is perfect for me. It is a lot smaller and just removed all the keys I was not using on the EZ anyway and shrunk down some of the others.
Had a friend who got one of these as a joke and he ended up loving it, which in turn sent me down the 40% keyboard rabbit hole.
However, rather than a pure ortholinear board like planck, I _highly_ recommend a columnar stagger board like the Reviung41[0] or the Corne[1]. Columnar stagger retains the benefits of ortho, but also accounts for the natural difference in finger lengths and I find it by far the most comfortable layout type. Full splits like the Corne are really good for ergonomics, but the Reviung41 is my favorite board because it has some of the advantages of a split, while retaining the advantages of a single piece board like the Planck.
I did initially buy a ZSA Moonlander, but I highly regret the purchase. The thumb cluster is incredibly poorly designed for anyone who doesn't have freakishly giant hands, and becomes even more unusable if you prefer a steeper tenting angle, since that moves it even further away from the rest of your hand. And putting the tenting at a shallower angle to make the cluster usable, kinda defeats the whole purpose of tenting the board in the first place. If you want a split like the Moonlander, I think you're better off looking at something like the Lily58[2] or the Corne, or any of the myriad number of split keyboards with sane thumb clusters.
After using a 40% board for a while, I no longer understand why people insist on bigger boards other than habit or fear of change. The smaller layout means that despite having to rely on layers to reach some keys like symbols or numbers, they're also far closer to your homerow than on a traditional board.
Switching to a 40% and a trackball was one of the best decisions I've made comfort-wise, and even resolved some hand pain issues I was having because my desk is tiny.
The original Commodore PET [1] had such a keyboard layout [2,3], this was seen as a disadvantage compared to rivals like the Apple-II and the TRS80 which sported "real" (staggered) keyboards. The oddball layout mostly was the result of Commodore starting out as a company making calculators where the square layout is the norm. They moved to a "real" keyboard for the next version [4]. Fast-forward a few decades and that original PET layout starts to become innovative again. Maybe one of these companies should sell a portable version of the PET keyboard with similar keycaps and colour, it would probably sell quite well.
I think it's great that interesting layouts are still being designed, and that the mechanical keyboard community has become open to non-ANSI layouts. Hopefully we will see more of that, and maybe someday the Logitechs of the world will make novel layouts more mainstream.
Until then, an ortholinear + 47 keys is a tough sell. Even for serious keyboard people. Let's consider a 65% board (~68 keys):
1. is almost as portable
2. still functions more or less as a regular keyboard
3. layout matches laptops
4. layout doesn't need to be learned
And finally, as cool as the Plank EZ is, it's clearly targeting "power users", the exact users who have 20+ years typing on ANSI/ISO keyboards. The people who know shortcuts for everything and have Vim muscle memory. The same type of people who tried Dvorak for a month because it was cool but gave up because there was too much mental overhead for doing basic tasks. Layers for standard keys? No media keys? I got stuff to do, man.
I've been using my own Planck* for a while now, and I absolutely love it! It's actually my second - I've pretty much exclusively used Plancks for almost 5 years. Strongly recommend giving them a go, even though the layers will feel very alien to begin with. I've also used an ErgoDox EZ for a while, and I actually prefer the Planck.
There seems to be a lot of people with wrist issues here, so I thought I'd ask. I get a lot of pain in my right shoulder and right wrist after using a keyboard for a while. I've noticed it more when I have to use my little finger (e.g. curly bracers, etc.)
I'm currently trying out a split keyboard (freestyle 2, wanted something cheaper to see if the split helped), and it definitely has. I went back to my Ducky 5 for a few days and felt it.
I'm currently learning to type Dvorak, which feels nice but I'm not using it enough so far to know if it's an improvement. I'm really liking the look of the Kinesis Advantage, has anyone with similar wrist pain noticed that it made a difference?
You should absolutely go see a doctor. The problem with ergonomics is that everything is bullshit. For instance, you know that famous thing where all your joints should be at 90°? Yeah, not so much. My cubital tunnel symptom was because my hands were too bent. Putting my keyboard deeper into the desk helped. Similarly, your issues with the shoulders don't sound like anything garden-variety, but then again they might be.
If you would like to hear anecdotes, here's mine. I was a horrible typer (spacebar with my index finger etc.). I learnt Programmer's Dvorak, which helped me type more sedately/less spastically. But it was still on a full-sized keyboard. More recently, I switched to the Ergodox EZ, and I definitely prefer it. It sits shoulder width apart. I found out I prefer NOT to have it tented, as my desk is too high already, and it would lead to pain on the top of my wrist. I also changed my keyboard layout to basically ignore half the keyboard, and just stay on the home row as much as possible. Fn keys, the thumb cluster etc., I try not to use at all. All of these things helped. But what helped most was going to a doctor, she measured my nerve speeds, and recommended a strap to wear at night. So, go to a doctor!
I've had one of these for nearly a couple years now and I absolutely love it. I ended up getting a second so I could have one at work and home and not have to move either.
After I got the second I had the issue of keeping the two firmwares in sync, so to solve that I wrote a github action[1] to build the firmware and a quick Nim app[2] to pull it down & flash it, although it turns out I haven't felt the need to really change the key map after I settled on something.
I wish I could get a good laptop with an ortholinear layout, it's just that much more comfortable for me. Your hands will kind of torque when typing on a regular keyboard layout after getting used to an ortho.
This build doesn't work anymore, I actually just tried it the other day and I haven't bothered to figure out what to update but I assume the action would still work with a valid target.
While note quite as cool as a 40% I've personally been very happy with a Mistel Barocco[0]. The MS Sculpt was one of the best keyboards I'd ever used before that opened my eyes to properly done ergonomics.
My keyboard journey actually went like this:
- keyboards not worth mentioning
- MS Ergonomic 4000
- keyboards not worth mentioning
- Microsoft Sculpt
- Filco Majestouch 2
- Unicomp M
- Mistel Barocco
I have to say, the first jump to tactile keyboards was uplifting. I felt like I could touch-type more quickly with more certainty which was nice. Can't say that it's all uphill from there (not all switches are even tactile), but finding both split and tactile was great and my hands have never felt better.
Also, make sure to check out wooden Filco wood rests. But it looks like they're only made in Japan (which is where I happen to be currently) -- none of the grime and all of the support of "gel" wrist rests.
Some other interesting entries in the split+tactile space:
I've been a huge fan of the Microsoft Sculpt for years. Its the only keyboard that doesn't hurt my wrists/hands hurt. Just my personal preference.
I tried the Moonlander for a bit, but could never get over the learning curve (it is very very steep). It's build quality is fantastic, is amazingly customizable, but the shape didn't work with my brain/muscle memory.
I went back to the Sculpt. If they ever decide to discontinue them I guess I'll need to stock up.
Never heard of the barocco, thanks. If they made that keyboard with bluetooth (particularly the 60% version) I'd be sold. Currently using a Nuphy F1 which is minimal yet sadly not split.
I moved over to the Kinesis Advantage (LF model) because I was concerned about developing hand/wrist issues, not because I had any currently manifesting, or so I thought.
Whilst I lost a few hairs during the adjustment period, I didn't realise how comfortable a keyboard (and typing on it) could feel, to the extent that I wonder whether I had wrist issues previously but as the onset was so slow I didn't really notice them.
I bought one recently too. Not quite used to it 100% but I am seriously digging it. I get pain in my right hand from typing in particular symbols like {},[],\ etc. that are commonly used in programming and rely way too much on my right pinky. I've mapped them on to keys that are easier to hit on the keypad layer and made that super easy to toggle into. It's a game changer.
I also get a lot of shoulder pain from using a standard keyboard but I'd already resolved that with a split board. I just wish they were cheaper!
I wonder how people using a keyboard like this handle numbers and function keys?
My daily keyboard is an OCZ Vortex 3 which has a dedicated numbers row and above that a row with ESC/F1-12. I cannot imagine using a keyboard that does not have these two rows. Mainly because my IDE/Vim/Tmux configs are heavily customized to use F1-F12 and <C-$num> for common actions.
Small keyboards like these trade-off hand movement, and instead use layering and other tricks; you'll end up customising the layout you use with it to suit your use case.
Because I can arrange those keys exactly in the way I want, my proficiency with the numbers and F-keys has skyrocketed since I switched to a standard Planck.
I've been using Planck for about a year now. F1 is combination of two keys: lower(special modifier key left to the space) and a. I usually have no problem with this, and kinda prefer this now as my fingers don't have to move away from the homerow.
I do have a little bit of trouble when I have to press multiple modifier keys and a function key though.
I heavily use QMK to change how my keyboards work. I keep most of the normal upper and lower layers, but I also have a layer with a numpad and macros (such as a key that inputs my email). It is still a bit of a learning curve, and I find myself having to think for a second when I am using things like screen or tmux.
The theory with these short keyboards is that for a poweruser who remembers all the combos it's easier / quicker / more comfortable to press a combination of keys at their fingertips rather than to move their hand over a dedicated key (and back).
For the past 15 years or so, I have been using a TypeMatrix keyboard (2030 USB, Dvorak).
For me, the best part of the keyboard is the ortholinear layout. This is really a great feeling to just extend/retract a finger to reach to above below row. It has dedicated function row (which for debugging is for me a must have).
I would recommend anybody with pain to try an ortholinear layout, be it from company X or Y, I really think it is a massive improvement against the standard non symmetric layout.
Big, 100+ key keyboards have fallen out of favor with the keyboard crowd and I can't understand why. I have a desktop, I'm not carrying my keyboard with me, and I have plenty of room. Why on earth would I want to start removing keys?
I love this. One suggestion, instead of dedicated keys for ctrl, option and other modifier keys you can use 'permissive hold' in QMK to put modifier keys in your home row.
Hold down F or J for F Lock, D or K for Ctrl and so on. My fingers adjusted to it really fast. Your keys can act as modifiers when held, and normal keys when pressed and it is works super well.
Bought one of these for travel but made it my main keyboard to force learning the smaller layout. It’s a steep upfront cost, but setting up and learning the multi-layer layouts (which you basically have to use on the Planck) is so worth it. Numbers, symbols, app switching, and window management are all on the home row and my hands are thankful. Don’t imagine it’d be comfortable for someone with broad shoulders, though!
For people who use these 47-key keyboards, how long does it take for you to be comfortable with them?
Is there any type of work that is NOT suitable on these keyboards? I feel that the UP and DOWN keys are kind of strain at least in the beginning.
edit
Holy just checked the price and it's above $200. Why is it so expensive? It's almost at par with my second-hand laptop. I guess it's fancy but do you feel the price is justified?
This is clearly not a keyboard for those who only have to spend $200 on their computer. But I guess most people here have rigs that cost well over $1000.
From that perspective, it is not that expensive considering that it is the thing you are using all day to interact with that computer and a good keyboard can last decades, unlike the rest of your computer.
Is the price justified? It is because it is a small run. If Logitech did it, it could have been much cheaper because of economizes of scale, but Logitech doesn't make it. Is it for yourself? That's your choice, try it if you can, and then check your budget.
Personally, I got my current keyboard, a $200+ Topre RealForce after trying a bunch of keyboard in a specialized shop. I didn't look at the price, and unfortunately, I preferred the most expensive. I didn't buy it outright, because I too thought that $200 is way too much for a keyboard, but I came back later, and bought it. I have been using it for 8 years and I see no reason to change, and not once I have regretted my purchase.
I had to intentionally practice for a couple of weeks before I felt really comfortable typing. When it came to typing symbols I've always been a cheater, so the shift+numrow symbols were the hardest for me to remember.
Replacing the modifier switches with loud and clicky ones helped me get the feedback needed to allow me to type combinations quickly (and ZSA optionally sells a secondary pack of ten with your purchase, just enough for the mods/space/enter/esc).
The arrow keys should be familiar to anyone seriously using vim / vim bindings, as they're in the same hjkl configuration.
The thing made hardest with this keyboard is actually video games. There are fewer buttons in the range of one hand, so I often end up remapping some buttons to my mouse if I have to. The ctrl/z/x/c keys are all pretty hard to press when your hand is on w/a/s/d. For games that fully utilize a keyboard (Space Engineers, GMod, etc) you will find yourself making layers specific to those games.
This all being said, I don't have the largest hands and I enjoy that my wrists basically don't have to move around. The customization is a treat. I actually take it with me to work and back home, because it's so small and easy to move that I don't mind it. Also I made a numpad layer that I'm really happy with, and that only works on an ortholinear.
The price tag is serious, but the keyboard is hand assembled by well paid workers in Taiwan. For the amount of time I spend typing on my keyboard (at least 8 hours a day, every day) I'm perfectly happy to dispense with some money for a solid product.
> Is there any type of work that is NOT suitable on these keyboards? I feel that the UP and DOWN keys are kind of strain at least in the beginning.
I'd say situations where you need more discrete buttons that are easily accessible. Gaming comes to mind as a big one where the lack of physical keys in a situation where you need immediate access is going to be difficult. This is of course game dependent and some games can be easily accommodated. Tasks that aren't as latency-dependent will be mostly fine.
> edit Holy just checked the price and it's above $200. Why is it so expensive? It's almost at par with my second-hand laptop. I guess it's fancy but do you feel the price is justified?
Manufacturing relatively low volume products with injection molded parts and the need to hand assemble the keyboards is pretty expensive. You can find planck kits for cheap and if you know how to solder you could build one for under 100 dollars probably. DIY kits will usually use stacked laser-cut acrylic or 3d printed cases. The price is justified if you want one that is well made and prebuilt.
> how long does it take for you to be comfortable with them?
Not so long for typing out letters if your fingers are disciplined to stick to each column. e.g. it didn't take me long to switch my Dvorak skills to use it.
Getting comfortable with typing symbols took more time, since there's more flexibility about where you put the symbols on the keyboard.
> Is there any type of work that is NOT suitable on these keyboards?
I'd say the reduced-size layouts don't lose much when you can keep both hands on the keyboard. (e.g. using Emacs or Vim in a terminal).
e.g. they're especially difficult to use for FPS games; or for (say) Blender or using KiCad where moving your hand all-over the keyboard. (It's possible to an extent to customise the layout to work with various use-cases, though).
> Price
ZSA's keyboards come with warranty, etc.
I got a BM40 (sold on AliExpress) for about $100. Expensive, but high quality.
There are ways to assemble niche keyboards for a lower budget, but it won't be as nice a quality.
I used the keyboard for a year. Coming from ErgoDox EZ (from the same company), it took me ~half a year to type as fast with very few typos.
I found it unsuitable for gaming, since my layout was programming-related. I'm sure I could have configured it for gaming, but I found it easier to just switch to a regular keyboard.
It's also not totally suitable for writing in other than English. If you have other characters, like accents, I found it difficult to program the keyboard properly.
On a compact keyboard, the special characters are no further away than capital letters, and often easier to get at than they are on a standard keyboard. For example, on a standard US layout, } and | require both pressing a modifier key (shift) and a stretch. On my compact keyboard, they do still require a modifier key (I call it "sym" on my keyboard), but there's no stretching - they're all no more than 1 key away from my left hand home row.
For digits, it's the other way around. On a standard keyboard, they require a stretch but no modifier key. On my compact, they require a modifier key but no stretch. For my part, I find it to be a net positive because the modifier key puts me on a layer where I've got essentially a numpad under my right hand, which allows me to key in numbers with the speed and accuracy of a numpad, without having to pick up my hand and move it.
The main reason this keyboard's keycaps are ~R1 / ~R2 is because of RGB and consequently north-facing switches. This trades a more pleasant typing experience for aesthetics. Wouldn't be my first choice over the JNAO, which is a solderable compatible alternative.
[+] [-] daggersandscars|4 years ago|reply
I have the Drop version of the Planck, as well as the ErgoDox EZ, the Drop ALT, Logitech G915, two Havit low-profile gaming keyboards (TKL and full), and the AA battery Apple TKL. Previously, I had a Das (Cherry MX Brown).
I have relatively big hands (4" across the knuckles, 9" base to tip) and relatively wide shoulders (20+").
I suffer from wrist and finger pain when typing. Lower-profile is better for me, in general.
The best, overall, is the ErgoDox EZ, but takes up a ton of space and requires serious dedication to learn to type well on. Also, the thumb movements make this a bad keyboard for people who have thumb arthritis.
The Apple is best for finger pain and typing speed but not great for wrist pain.
The low profile mechanicals (Havit, Logitech) are fine. I get some finger pain and some wrist pain, but not a ton. They don't feel great to use.
The Planck is the only standard key switch mechanical keyboard I can type on without hand & wrist pain. In terms of overall pain, it's second only to the ErgoDox EZ. I also retain more typing speed than the ErgoDox EZ. I find the frozen in place hand positioning better than trying to use the Drop ALT in a keyboard tray.
(Edited to add thumb arthritis note.)
[+] [-] irjustin|4 years ago|reply
I don't recommend the Ergodox EZ just as you note the thumb cluster is pretty terrible in actuality.
https://shop.keyboard.io/
Is my recommended 'out of the box' keyboard.
As you also rightly point out, there's a learning curve with a move to these kinds of keyboards but since you're on an ergodox, the gap should be significantly smaller.
My daily driver is a Diverge 3 (company no longer operating), but the best one so far. Close in, thumb clusters with few, easily accessible keys. The thumb can really only access 3-4 keys easily.
The real one I want to go after is the Dactyl Manuform... but omg there's no nice way to get at that thing. And the cost is so high just to 'try it out'.
[+] [-] rixed|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] linsomniac|4 years ago|reply
Thumb arthritis: I've started to develop arthritis in my thumbs when grasping, and the EZ doesn't trigger it at all.
Effort to learn: I wouldn't say "serious dedication", but it did take an effort. I had a few bad habits, namely pressing 'b' with the wrong hand (can't do that on a split), and having to look when typing the numbers. It took me a couple days of feeling like I couldn't type, and maybe two weeks before I felt like I was 100% comfortable with it.
I do agree that the thumb clusters, other than the two primary keys, are basically useless. I have some VERY infrequently used keys mapped to them (pg up/down, alt). It also does take a lot of space to use and to carry.
I use a customized keyboard layout particular to my workflow with i3 and vim. I'm SUPER happy with it.
I've been very tempted to try the Moonlander, but I also really don't want to go back to labeled keys. My current keys are blank. If they had a blank set of caps, I'd have ordered it.
[+] [-] arka2147483647|4 years ago|reply
- Even though Moonlander has approximately same layout as Ergodox, the "margins" around the keyboard are a lot smaller, so I noticed it fit a lot better on my desk. Small thing, but I felt it made difference for me.
- The thumb clusters are more ergonomic for me on the Moonlander
- I still often feel that I would like to have an extra row of buttons on the Ergodox/Moonlander, instead of the layer system. Oh, well ...
[+] [-] war1025|4 years ago|reply
At first we got one because our keyboard broke and it was all they had at the Radio Shack in our small town. Then I grew to like it because it is nearly silent to type on. And as I've gotten older, I've found that I don't get wrist pain when using it, unlike every other keyboard I've tried.
I know people go on about the greatness of split ergonomic keyboards, but if you are like me and those just don't really do it for you, I'd suggest giving one of these a try. They are sort of love it or hate it, with a heavy skew towards hate it though.
[1] Not this model, but similar: https://www.newegg.com/p/0GA-03F8-00014
[+] [-] cyberdummy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sleepybrett|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmarsh|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wellthisisgreat|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flamwenco|4 years ago|reply
However, rather than a pure ortholinear board like planck, I _highly_ recommend a columnar stagger board like the Reviung41[0] or the Corne[1]. Columnar stagger retains the benefits of ortho, but also accounts for the natural difference in finger lengths and I find it by far the most comfortable layout type. Full splits like the Corne are really good for ergonomics, but the Reviung41 is my favorite board because it has some of the advantages of a split, while retaining the advantages of a single piece board like the Planck.
I did initially buy a ZSA Moonlander, but I highly regret the purchase. The thumb cluster is incredibly poorly designed for anyone who doesn't have freakishly giant hands, and becomes even more unusable if you prefer a steeper tenting angle, since that moves it even further away from the rest of your hand. And putting the tenting at a shallower angle to make the cluster usable, kinda defeats the whole purpose of tenting the board in the first place. If you want a split like the Moonlander, I think you're better off looking at something like the Lily58[2] or the Corne, or any of the myriad number of split keyboards with sane thumb clusters.
After using a 40% board for a while, I no longer understand why people insist on bigger boards other than habit or fear of change. The smaller layout means that despite having to rely on layers to reach some keys like symbols or numbers, they're also far closer to your homerow than on a traditional board.
Switching to a 40% and a trackball was one of the best decisions I've made comfort-wise, and even resolved some hand pain issues I was having because my desk is tiny.
[0] https://github.com/gtips/reviung/tree/master/reviung41 [1] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd [2] https://github.com/kata0510/Lily58
[+] [-] the_third_wave|4 years ago|reply
The original Commodore PET [1] had such a keyboard layout [2,3], this was seen as a disadvantage compared to rivals like the Apple-II and the TRS80 which sported "real" (staggered) keyboards. The oddball layout mostly was the result of Commodore starting out as a company making calculators where the square layout is the norm. They moved to a "real" keyboard for the next version [4]. Fast-forward a few decades and that original PET layout starts to become innovative again. Maybe one of these companies should sell a portable version of the PET keyboard with similar keycaps and colour, it would probably sell quite well.
[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Commodor...
[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/PE...
[3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/PE...
[4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Pe...
[+] [-] vehemenz|4 years ago|reply
Until then, an ortholinear + 47 keys is a tough sell. Even for serious keyboard people. Let's consider a 65% board (~68 keys):
1. is almost as portable
2. still functions more or less as a regular keyboard
3. layout matches laptops
4. layout doesn't need to be learned
And finally, as cool as the Plank EZ is, it's clearly targeting "power users", the exact users who have 20+ years typing on ANSI/ISO keyboards. The people who know shortcuts for everything and have Vim muscle memory. The same type of people who tried Dvorak for a month because it was cool but gave up because there was too much mental overhead for doing basic tasks. Layers for standard keys? No media keys? I got stuff to do, man.
[+] [-] elliebike|4 years ago|reply
*: https://elliehuxtable.com/my-planck-keyboard/
[+] [-] Accacin|4 years ago|reply
I'm currently trying out a split keyboard (freestyle 2, wanted something cheaper to see if the split helped), and it definitely has. I went back to my Ducky 5 for a few days and felt it.
I'm currently learning to type Dvorak, which feels nice but I'm not using it enough so far to know if it's an improvement. I'm really liking the look of the Kinesis Advantage, has anyone with similar wrist pain noticed that it made a difference?
[+] [-] helmholtz|4 years ago|reply
If you would like to hear anecdotes, here's mine. I was a horrible typer (spacebar with my index finger etc.). I learnt Programmer's Dvorak, which helped me type more sedately/less spastically. But it was still on a full-sized keyboard. More recently, I switched to the Ergodox EZ, and I definitely prefer it. It sits shoulder width apart. I found out I prefer NOT to have it tented, as my desk is too high already, and it would lead to pain on the top of my wrist. I also changed my keyboard layout to basically ignore half the keyboard, and just stay on the home row as much as possible. Fn keys, the thumb cluster etc., I try not to use at all. All of these things helped. But what helped most was going to a doctor, she measured my nerve speeds, and recommended a strap to wear at night. So, go to a doctor!
[+] [-] eli|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kryptn|4 years ago|reply
After I got the second I had the issue of keeping the two firmwares in sync, so to solve that I wrote a github action[1] to build the firmware and a quick Nim app[2] to pull it down & flash it, although it turns out I haven't felt the need to really change the key map after I settled on something.
I wish I could get a good laptop with an ortholinear layout, it's just that much more comfortable for me. Your hands will kind of torque when typing on a regular keyboard layout after getting used to an ortho.
[1] https://github.com/kryptn/qmk_firmware/blob/master/.github/w...
This build doesn't work anymore, I actually just tried it the other day and I haven't bothered to figure out what to update but I assume the action would still work with a valid target.
[2] https://github.com/kryptn/kb-sync
[+] [-] hardwaresofton|4 years ago|reply
My keyboard journey actually went like this:
- keyboards not worth mentioning
- MS Ergonomic 4000
- keyboards not worth mentioning
- Microsoft Sculpt
- Filco Majestouch 2
- Unicomp M
- Mistel Barocco
I have to say, the first jump to tactile keyboards was uplifting. I felt like I could touch-type more quickly with more certainty which was nice. Can't say that it's all uphill from there (not all switches are even tactile), but finding both split and tactile was great and my hands have never felt better.
Also, make sure to check out wooden Filco wood rests. But it looks like they're only made in Japan (which is where I happen to be currently) -- none of the grime and all of the support of "gel" wrist rests.
Some other interesting entries in the split+tactile space:
- https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
- https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
[0]: https://mistelkeyboard.com/products/d7283e95f4ffcbc7b90f2dc5...
[+] [-] randshift|4 years ago|reply
I tried the Moonlander for a bit, but could never get over the learning curve (it is very very steep). It's build quality is fantastic, is amazingly customizable, but the shape didn't work with my brain/muscle memory.
I went back to the Sculpt. If they ever decide to discontinue them I guess I'll need to stock up.
[+] [-] seltzered_|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cutthegrass2|4 years ago|reply
Whilst I lost a few hairs during the adjustment period, I didn't realise how comfortable a keyboard (and typing on it) could feel, to the extent that I wonder whether I had wrist issues previously but as the onset was so slow I didn't really notice them.
[+] [-] salamandersauce|4 years ago|reply
I also get a lot of shoulder pain from using a standard keyboard but I'd already resolved that with a split board. I just wish they were cheaper!
[+] [-] vbsteven|4 years ago|reply
My daily keyboard is an OCZ Vortex 3 which has a dedicated numbers row and above that a row with ESC/F1-12. I cannot imagine using a keyboard that does not have these two rows. Mainly because my IDE/Vim/Tmux configs are heavily customized to use F1-F12 and <C-$num> for common actions.
[+] [-] rgoulter|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JunoNgx|4 years ago|reply
Because I can arrange those keys exactly in the way I want, my proficiency with the numbers and F-keys has skyrocketed since I switched to a standard Planck.
[+] [-] justinsaccount|4 years ago|reply
Number keys: either layer key+top row (qwertyuiop) or a key under my left pinky and a 3x3 grid under my right hand becomes a numpad.
[+] [-] creakingstairs|4 years ago|reply
I do have a little bit of trouble when I have to press multiple modifier keys and a function key though.
[+] [-] bikingbismuth|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yreg|4 years ago|reply
It suits some people.
[+] [-] sethammons|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Loic|4 years ago|reply
For me, the best part of the keyboard is the ortholinear layout. This is really a great feeling to just extend/retract a finger to reach to above below row. It has dedicated function row (which for debugging is for me a must have).
I would recommend anybody with pain to try an ortholinear layout, be it from company X or Y, I really think it is a massive improvement against the standard non symmetric layout.
[+] [-] bjoli|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] luma|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mumblemumble|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agbell|4 years ago|reply
Hold down F or J for F Lock, D or K for Ctrl and so on. My fingers adjusted to it really fast. Your keys can act as modifiers when held, and normal keys when pressed and it is works super well.
https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/tap_hol...
[+] [-] mumblemumble|4 years ago|reply
Moves the letter keys toward the outside and the enter/esc/tab/etc keys to the middle so you (theoretically) don't have to torque your wrists as much.
Can't vouch for it personally (I don't have a Planck), but it's at least an interesting concept.
There's also the Preonic (only available as a DIY kit AFAIK) if you'd like a row of number keys, too.
[+] [-] the8472|4 years ago|reply
28mm isn't all that thin. kailh makes low profile switches with which you can easily get 20mm keyboards.
[+] [-] ethanbond|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dv_dt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markus_zhang|4 years ago|reply
Is there any type of work that is NOT suitable on these keyboards? I feel that the UP and DOWN keys are kind of strain at least in the beginning.
edit Holy just checked the price and it's above $200. Why is it so expensive? It's almost at par with my second-hand laptop. I guess it's fancy but do you feel the price is justified?
[+] [-] GuB-42|4 years ago|reply
Is the price justified? It is because it is a small run. If Logitech did it, it could have been much cheaper because of economizes of scale, but Logitech doesn't make it. Is it for yourself? That's your choice, try it if you can, and then check your budget.
Personally, I got my current keyboard, a $200+ Topre RealForce after trying a bunch of keyboard in a specialized shop. I didn't look at the price, and unfortunately, I preferred the most expensive. I didn't buy it outright, because I too thought that $200 is way too much for a keyboard, but I came back later, and bought it. I have been using it for 8 years and I see no reason to change, and not once I have regretted my purchase.
[+] [-] striking|4 years ago|reply
I had to intentionally practice for a couple of weeks before I felt really comfortable typing. When it came to typing symbols I've always been a cheater, so the shift+numrow symbols were the hardest for me to remember.
Replacing the modifier switches with loud and clicky ones helped me get the feedback needed to allow me to type combinations quickly (and ZSA optionally sells a secondary pack of ten with your purchase, just enough for the mods/space/enter/esc).
The arrow keys should be familiar to anyone seriously using vim / vim bindings, as they're in the same hjkl configuration.
The thing made hardest with this keyboard is actually video games. There are fewer buttons in the range of one hand, so I often end up remapping some buttons to my mouse if I have to. The ctrl/z/x/c keys are all pretty hard to press when your hand is on w/a/s/d. For games that fully utilize a keyboard (Space Engineers, GMod, etc) you will find yourself making layers specific to those games.
This all being said, I don't have the largest hands and I enjoy that my wrists basically don't have to move around. The customization is a treat. I actually take it with me to work and back home, because it's so small and easy to move that I don't mind it. Also I made a numpad layer that I'm really happy with, and that only works on an ortholinear.
The price tag is serious, but the keyboard is hand assembled by well paid workers in Taiwan. For the amount of time I spend typing on my keyboard (at least 8 hours a day, every day) I'm perfectly happy to dispense with some money for a solid product.
[+] [-] least|4 years ago|reply
I'd say situations where you need more discrete buttons that are easily accessible. Gaming comes to mind as a big one where the lack of physical keys in a situation where you need immediate access is going to be difficult. This is of course game dependent and some games can be easily accommodated. Tasks that aren't as latency-dependent will be mostly fine.
> edit Holy just checked the price and it's above $200. Why is it so expensive? It's almost at par with my second-hand laptop. I guess it's fancy but do you feel the price is justified?
Manufacturing relatively low volume products with injection molded parts and the need to hand assemble the keyboards is pretty expensive. You can find planck kits for cheap and if you know how to solder you could build one for under 100 dollars probably. DIY kits will usually use stacked laser-cut acrylic or 3d printed cases. The price is justified if you want one that is well made and prebuilt.
[+] [-] rgoulter|4 years ago|reply
Not so long for typing out letters if your fingers are disciplined to stick to each column. e.g. it didn't take me long to switch my Dvorak skills to use it.
Getting comfortable with typing symbols took more time, since there's more flexibility about where you put the symbols on the keyboard.
> Is there any type of work that is NOT suitable on these keyboards?
I'd say the reduced-size layouts don't lose much when you can keep both hands on the keyboard. (e.g. using Emacs or Vim in a terminal).
e.g. they're especially difficult to use for FPS games; or for (say) Blender or using KiCad where moving your hand all-over the keyboard. (It's possible to an extent to customise the layout to work with various use-cases, though).
> Price
ZSA's keyboards come with warranty, etc.
I got a BM40 (sold on AliExpress) for about $100. Expensive, but high quality.
There are ways to assemble niche keyboards for a lower budget, but it won't be as nice a quality.
[+] [-] BossingAround|4 years ago|reply
I found it unsuitable for gaming, since my layout was programming-related. I'm sure I could have configured it for gaming, but I found it easier to just switch to a regular keyboard.
It's also not totally suitable for writing in other than English. If you have other characters, like accents, I found it difficult to program the keyboard properly.
Otherwise, the sky's the limit.
[+] [-] notorandit|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justinsaccount|4 years ago|reply
on my planck layout I press a layer key under my thumb+q.
All the chars like {} [] | \ are on my home row.
It doesn't get any more readily available.
[+] [-] mumblemumble|4 years ago|reply
For digits, it's the other way around. On a standard keyboard, they require a stretch but no modifier key. On my compact, they require a modifier key but no stretch. For my part, I find it to be a net positive because the modifier key puts me on a layer where I've got essentially a numpad under my right hand, which allows me to key in numbers with the speed and accuracy of a numpad, without having to pick up my hand and move it.
[+] [-] 1MachineElf|4 years ago|reply