Personally I realized during the Pandemic that a lot of the relationships I'd fostered over the course of my adult life were lead by a desperate desire for belonging rather than on sober considerations such as: do these people respect me at all?; do these people care about my inner life at all?; do these people share a desire for growth beyond that of our local maximums?; do these people have any ambition at all? - these were just drinking buddies at best.
I'd always had teachers in grammar and high school telling me directly or indirectly I was wasting my potential trying to be like the other kids but I only recently understand what they meant and what, more importantly, they saw that I didn't, but that's what a childhood of deep ostracizing both within and without one's family will do.
Much of this thought process has only been possible because I enrolled in therapy a few years before the pandemic. Prior to this I meandered around life with a desperate, pathetic cheerfulness that masked how alone I already was. Alone, not just on the basis of deep, meaningful companionship but that I hadn't at all cultivated being a friend and ally to myself, such that I allowed myself to take on friendships that were not good for my growth as person at all, rather caused me to regress to the same old childhood tropes and tactics time and time again, unable to address the real interpersonal complexity that requires a defined and resolved character to decide and navigate; I tried to be these other apparently successful types to have some social life rather saying NO to what I knew wasn't going to get me where I wanted to go and the kind of people I'd probably enjoy beyond inebriation and frat-level jokes.
What sucks though is that you spend so much time in these relationships you develop a sort of Stockholm Syndrome where the sense of "love" and "affinity" are really just "this is all I've ever known".
Rebuilding at a late age like myself is going to be tough, social media can be particular booby trap here I realize, but it seems necessary.
>do these people respect me at all?; do these people care about my inner life at all?; do these people share a desire for growth beyond that of our local maximums?; do these people have any ambition at all?
That's a nice list of traits for a friend to have, but since a person will literally go insane if they don't have any human contact, I would advise finding better friends first before dumping the bad ones.
I think it's okay to have friends you don't have a super deep relationship with as long as you enjoy being around them.
Like I have quite a few people I'll get together to play board games with, and I enjoy their company for that, but we don't do a whole lot outside of that (sometimes a dinner or a movie or go to a special event, but not too often).
Do you have a hobby? I build model airplanes and collect old telephones, when I can afford them. There are rich communities behind these and that has given me a social life outside of the internet.
Personally, I'm convinced that parasocial relationships are outcompeting social relationships. You can risk your ego putting yourself out there in real life, or you can let a recommendation algorithm serve you content that gives you the feeling of being seen and understood without requiring any reciprocal vulnerability on your part.
The problem is that it's just that - the feeling of being seen and understood - the whole point is that there is no actual interaction with you. Depending on your life situation, you can keep up the delusion for quite a while and be happy with it (like the guy who happened an anime character) - things get problematic once you require some actual understanding and life advice.
Even in interactive context, things are treacherous. Sure, you can have this online community who totally get you, who you can talk to about anything and get back compassion, support and useful advice - but do you have any idea who those people actually are, what their life situations are, what values they have and what views they are basing that advice on?
I held them once-a-month for 3 years before the pandemic, and I just restarted this month. These parties happen at my rooftop terrace at my place on the Upper West Side:
254 W 98th St
New York NY 10025
It's mostly a tech crowd, but also some folks from the theater world, and the publishing world.
Text me if you want to be on the invite list: 434 825 7694
I see a lot of "it's the computers/smartphone!" and "it's corona" takes in these kind of articles. However, there is one in the article who has the real reason and not a scapegoat:
> "We realize the importance of friendship, and we're just not investing the time," he said, adding that it's another way the nation is "vulnerable."
Too many people don't have the resources to invest in friendships. Mostly it's time - working two or more jobs to survive or putting in 60+ hour workweeks plus insane 2 hour commutes doesn't leave much time for anything else than sleep - but also, money in general. There are not many places outside of a home for people to gather that are affordable and accessible to anyone, thanks to gentrification. Shoddy run-down bars that were a place for regular people have been replaced by hipster outfits that charge ten euros for a coffee.
I've mentioned this in another comment about a month ago but it is smartphones. You go to a bar as a regular once or twice a week, even people you know on a first name basis whip out their phones to talk to friends who aren't even there. Um...hello? I'm right next to you, present and willing to communicate, taking the initiative and effort to come out. Why are you ignoring me for the other person who isn't even there?
Phones have made personal relationships much harder because now people can talk to other people not even present far more conveniently. It is a double edge sword in it's entirety. It makes communication convenient and effortless, but also makes personal relationships just as difficult to maintain since you can just text instead of meeting up to get to know how someone's life has been going.
>Too many people don't have the resources to invest in friendships.
I don't believe that for a second. The simple fact that social media is alive and well wasting billions of hours of free time is more than enough to refute that point altogether. People in the past had time for friends and now suddenly they don't? I'd argue it's because people are spending more time on their phones texting or using social media than they are actually physically talking. As I've personally witnessed in many bars. I've had great chats with random strangers who were in the Gen-X or higher age group more than I have in the millennial and younger. Do you know why? They weren't staring at their phones the moment the conversation kinda died. Do you know what they did? They also tried to talk and bring something up during the conversation!
Social media has given us the illusion of unlimited choice and availability in our social lives. It's like a drug that makes you think the world is at your doorstep, when in reality it's the complete opposite. The single greatest thing a person can do to improve their social life is to delete their social media accounts.
I can't find the video or link, but Aziz Ansari talked about this in either his book "Master of None" or one of his sketches.
He basically boils it down to we're becoming more non-committal because we think something better is going to come, whether its the better brunch, the better gathering, the better toothbrush (he specifically cites this example) so we can all post it on social media. It results in all of us being miserable and unable to foster undivided attention.
The best thing you can do really is to not opt-in.
Upper middle class in America is unique. They have EVERYTHING that humanity can provide. They have access and ability to do anything.
Yet, they are all stuck in the never ending rat race. The excessive focus on the rat race leads to less energy and time left for friendships. The little time that is left is left only for superficial acquaintances. You know, the kind where people talk to each other like a sitcom.
Every time I go to Asian countries, I am stunned by how much time people (even those with high powered careers) give to family and friends. You know, things like casual hanging out in friends apartments on weekends, street food time in the evenings, experiencing a new restaurant or exploring a new village on a short road trip together.
Americans just don't want to engage in this kind of "unproductive" lifestyle. It's all about work, career, money. The entire cottage industry of self-help is all about spending every living moment improving yourself to more material wealth.
> Americans just don't want to engage in this kind of "unproductive" lifestyle. It's all about work, career, money.
It’s not that we don’t want to, it’s that our society’s design discourages this. For the most part, if you don’t have a GOOD job in the US, you don’t get healthcare or retirement. And even the employers at those good jobs can and do fire employees at any time, for any reason. Given the cost of healthcare without insurance and lack of social safety net, l I don’t think it’s hyperbole to say that for most Americans, even upper middle class, holding on to their jobs is a matter of life and death.
"What do you do?" is the default question for a stranger. Formal paid work is your identity in America. Even leisure activities are usually orientated around consumption and status signaling.
It's harder to make friends in America than any other country I've lived in. Anecdotally, I can't even seem to notice a difference in between an immigrant vs someone who grew up here.
I think that people sometimes focus to much on career and are leaving a bit the idea on the side. It's kind of sad, but I really don't think it's going to be good in the log run.
There's going to be a breaking point and it's not going to be fun
The article cites research that shows that the percentage of Americans with 10+ close friends have dropped from 33 to 13 percent since 1990. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to a change is what is considered a close friend? Just keeping in touch with other people used to be much more difficult and I wonder if the proliferation of cell phones and then smartphones has raised the bar. I wonder if friendship changed from just needing to keep in touch to having to directly support each other's emotional needs.
Personally, I can't imagine having that many close friends (and how many more non-close friends do you have?). To me it seems like it would require an almost obsessive level of effort to maintain, like to the extent that it's basically the only thing you do outside of work. Which I suppose would have been easier without the internet to distract you, but still.
My guess would be that the super-mobility of people is the difference.
When I was in high school, I had over 30 friends who I was close with- we had classes together during the day, sports practices together in the evening, and spent our weekends together at the same social gathers.
Then we all scattered for college, and social networks broke down as each of us individually were now nodes on separate, non-connected groups. We had our "college friends" and our "high school friends" who mostly didn't know one another or interact.
Then we all scattered again for jobs after college and our friendships became increasingly strained, difficult and disconnected. Our high school best friend was a thousand miles away and living a very different life now. Our college friends only got together as a group at weddings and bachelor parties. Our new 20-something friend groups were constantly in flux as people got into serious relationships, focused on careers or moved around.
If I'd grown up in the 1950s and stayed in my hometown after high school along with all my friends, I'd have a rich, deep history with 30+ friends. Instead, I have 100 people who I was close to for a few years at a time but who I'm only presently close with a few.
> And the friendship drought could get worse with more people working remotely or hybrid-ly.
It may be just a consequence of my circumstances, but work for me has never been the place to “make friends” and actually remote work enables my social life more, even by just a minuscule amount.
In regards to making friends in general. I always find myself the odd one out in every environment. At work particularly, I’m typically substantially younger than my colleagues some of which are old enough to be my parents or grandparents. Not that you cannot develop friendships with an age gap like that, but I don’t think it’s advisable. Majority of these people have there own life, are in the process of settling down or have their own families already. We are simply at different stages of life and it’s unlikely to result in any true friendships.
I don’t really have a social life either, which feels pretty faking at my age, but I do try to go out at least once or twice in the weekends. Over the years, I’ve had a number of acquaintances I’ve met, but no friends really. In most of the groups I hang out in, I find the same issue as work, though on a smaller scale. Still generally to young to develop any sort of bond with the people I’m with, but the gap tends to be smaller so that there’s still some things we can relate on. If I’m not the youngest in the room, it seems in the oldest, which is honestly an even more uneasy feeling as I have a hard time relating to most of my own generation, despite certainly exhibiting some characteristics of it.
Some people in this thread have additionally mentioned the resource of time as an inhibitor to developing friendships. I can understand this. I generally enjoy the occasions I get to go out or sometimes stay home and enjoy myself, but there’s always an uneasy feeling about how afterwards it’ll be another week of mindless wageslaving before I get a chance to to relax again.
Ultimately, I haven’t really made any friends since I was maybe 15 or so. This makes sense though, as since adulthood, I’ve basically been divorced from any sort of environment where young people find themselves. Having never gone to school I was mostly isolated from my peers from 18-24, and while there are many people at that age who do not tend to go to school and do well socially, I believe that at least a small majority of those people tend to choose paths that put them in communities with similar people, whereas I’ve always been out of place, demographically speaking, whether that be in impoverished dumps or next to moderately wealthy professionals/retirees. Though I am now coming around to the age where many of my peers will leave school and enter the “real world” I don’t think much will come of it as I have a bad history of always being in the wrong place at the wrong time (doubly so career wise, ha)
The reality is that this type of thing takes decades to change, so no advice in this thread is going to have much of an effect. If you're really interested in making new friends before you die, move to another country, or get lucky and marry someone who's social or has a big family. If you don't drink alcohol though, give it up, as that will basically destroy any chances of anyone befriending you as an adult.
I would counter that modern America sucks for supporting communities.
Our policies are mostly geared around creating never-ending strip malls, endless suburban neighborhoods, and omnipresent traffic issues. Because these things most efficiently create tax revenue, happy "what my parents had" families, and income segregated areas.
Similar to college, fixing America starts with deciding that everyone doesn't need a single family home in a popular metro.
Robert Putnam has studied this extensively but his findings weren't politically correct so he hid them for quite some time. Once he finally did release them, he discovered his fears were well founded, as he was villainized for his research. So we will continue to roam around searching for the cause while ignoring what's already in front of us because we simply don't want it to be true or are too fearful of what recognizing it would mean.
> "...loneliness wasn’t necessarily from being alone. In fact, it was often a feeling of alienation while in the presence of other people."
So true. With the political polarization so common now, you can become isolated and then alienated quite easily.
I'd add that being a man, especially if married, as you age your social circle radically declines. Getting divorced radically improved that for me. And I'm not even talking about the opposite sex - I have more guy friends now that 10, 20 years ago. There's a space that NO wife or GF can ever fill...
I think the places where the friendships are the hardest all tend to be guess cultures[0]. That isn't exactly surprising to me. Guess culture should make creating friendships much harder. If you may only ask if someone wants to hangout until you are very sure they'll say yes, then you'll very rarely ask for that. You'd need circumstances with long periods of being 'stuck' together to make a friend. Thus you'd expect people to disproportionately from work or school.
As someone who believes in the Moral Foundations Theory, I don't think it's an accident that the places that are known for low friendships tend to be culturally liberal places. Since most probably don't know what Moral Foundations Theory is, a quick and dirty version is that all moral judgement can be reduced to the following core values (or moral foundations) which I copied from Wikipedia:
* Care: cherishing and protecting others; opposite of harm
* Fairness or proportionality: rendering justice according to shared rules; opposite of cheating
* Loyalty or ingroup: standing with your group, family, nation; opposite of betrayal
* Authority or respect: submitting to tradition and legitimate authority; opposite of subversion
* Sanctity or purity: abhorrence for disgusting things, foods, actions; opposite of degradation
I'm also a fan of the tentatively accepted liberty vs oppression foundation. I really think it should be renamed to something like agency vs domination. Anyways, it would value being able to make decision on choices deemed important and rejecting those who coerce others.
Anyways, culturally liberal places pick care vs harm as their primary value and in some cases have made it the default choice for answering moral issues. I think this naturally leads to guess culture. You get told as a child, frequently, that saying "no" can hurt the askers feelings. You learn to feel bad for saying "no", since it violates care vs harm. You realize that the person you are about to ask a question to is going to feel bad if they say "no". Making them feel bad would be harm, so asking would be harm... unless you can figure out if they'd say yes. That's how I think a guess culture would develop.
The reason I bring up moral foundations at all is I believe the solution is in the last 3 foundations: loyalty, authority, and purity. Those 3 are characterized as the group-ish ones. They are what separate acquaintances from friends, neighbourhoods from communities, and coworkers from a team.
[+] [-] imbnwa|4 years ago|reply
I'd always had teachers in grammar and high school telling me directly or indirectly I was wasting my potential trying to be like the other kids but I only recently understand what they meant and what, more importantly, they saw that I didn't, but that's what a childhood of deep ostracizing both within and without one's family will do.
Much of this thought process has only been possible because I enrolled in therapy a few years before the pandemic. Prior to this I meandered around life with a desperate, pathetic cheerfulness that masked how alone I already was. Alone, not just on the basis of deep, meaningful companionship but that I hadn't at all cultivated being a friend and ally to myself, such that I allowed myself to take on friendships that were not good for my growth as person at all, rather caused me to regress to the same old childhood tropes and tactics time and time again, unable to address the real interpersonal complexity that requires a defined and resolved character to decide and navigate; I tried to be these other apparently successful types to have some social life rather saying NO to what I knew wasn't going to get me where I wanted to go and the kind of people I'd probably enjoy beyond inebriation and frat-level jokes.
What sucks though is that you spend so much time in these relationships you develop a sort of Stockholm Syndrome where the sense of "love" and "affinity" are really just "this is all I've ever known".
Rebuilding at a late age like myself is going to be tough, social media can be particular booby trap here I realize, but it seems necessary.
[+] [-] whatshisface|4 years ago|reply
That's a nice list of traits for a friend to have, but since a person will literally go insane if they don't have any human contact, I would advise finding better friends first before dumping the bad ones.
[+] [-] cableshaft|4 years ago|reply
Like I have quite a few people I'll get together to play board games with, and I enjoy their company for that, but we don't do a whole lot outside of that (sometimes a dinner or a movie or go to a special event, but not too often).
[+] [-] Ajay-p|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Footkerchief|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xg15|4 years ago|reply
Even in interactive context, things are treacherous. Sure, you can have this online community who totally get you, who you can talk to about anything and get back compassion, support and useful advice - but do you have any idea who those people actually are, what their life situations are, what values they have and what views they are basing that advice on?
[+] [-] cuddlybacon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxerickson|4 years ago|reply
I thought the definition there was people that gave attention to someone that doesn't return it?
[+] [-] lkrubner|4 years ago|reply
http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/everyone-was-amazing-...
I held them once-a-month for 3 years before the pandemic, and I just restarted this month. These parties happen at my rooftop terrace at my place on the Upper West Side:
254 W 98th St
New York NY 10025
It's mostly a tech crowd, but also some folks from the theater world, and the publishing world.
Text me if you want to be on the invite list: 434 825 7694
[+] [-] mschuster91|4 years ago|reply
> "We realize the importance of friendship, and we're just not investing the time," he said, adding that it's another way the nation is "vulnerable."
Too many people don't have the resources to invest in friendships. Mostly it's time - working two or more jobs to survive or putting in 60+ hour workweeks plus insane 2 hour commutes doesn't leave much time for anything else than sleep - but also, money in general. There are not many places outside of a home for people to gather that are affordable and accessible to anyone, thanks to gentrification. Shoddy run-down bars that were a place for regular people have been replaced by hipster outfits that charge ten euros for a coffee.
[+] [-] MeinBlutIstBlau|4 years ago|reply
Phones have made personal relationships much harder because now people can talk to other people not even present far more conveniently. It is a double edge sword in it's entirety. It makes communication convenient and effortless, but also makes personal relationships just as difficult to maintain since you can just text instead of meeting up to get to know how someone's life has been going.
>Too many people don't have the resources to invest in friendships.
I don't believe that for a second. The simple fact that social media is alive and well wasting billions of hours of free time is more than enough to refute that point altogether. People in the past had time for friends and now suddenly they don't? I'd argue it's because people are spending more time on their phones texting or using social media than they are actually physically talking. As I've personally witnessed in many bars. I've had great chats with random strangers who were in the Gen-X or higher age group more than I have in the millennial and younger. Do you know why? They weren't staring at their phones the moment the conversation kinda died. Do you know what they did? They also tried to talk and bring something up during the conversation!
[+] [-] Ajay-p|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acwan93|4 years ago|reply
He basically boils it down to we're becoming more non-committal because we think something better is going to come, whether its the better brunch, the better gathering, the better toothbrush (he specifically cites this example) so we can all post it on social media. It results in all of us being miserable and unable to foster undivided attention.
The best thing you can do really is to not opt-in.
[+] [-] nine_zeros|4 years ago|reply
Yet, they are all stuck in the never ending rat race. The excessive focus on the rat race leads to less energy and time left for friendships. The little time that is left is left only for superficial acquaintances. You know, the kind where people talk to each other like a sitcom.
Every time I go to Asian countries, I am stunned by how much time people (even those with high powered careers) give to family and friends. You know, things like casual hanging out in friends apartments on weekends, street food time in the evenings, experiencing a new restaurant or exploring a new village on a short road trip together.
Americans just don't want to engage in this kind of "unproductive" lifestyle. It's all about work, career, money. The entire cottage industry of self-help is all about spending every living moment improving yourself to more material wealth.
[+] [-] ramphastidae|4 years ago|reply
It’s not that we don’t want to, it’s that our society’s design discourages this. For the most part, if you don’t have a GOOD job in the US, you don’t get healthcare or retirement. And even the employers at those good jobs can and do fire employees at any time, for any reason. Given the cost of healthcare without insurance and lack of social safety net, l I don’t think it’s hyperbole to say that for most Americans, even upper middle class, holding on to their jobs is a matter of life and death.
[+] [-] supertrope|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chamsom|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0235005|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ben_w|4 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27949658
[+] [-] cowboysauce|4 years ago|reply
Personally, I can't imagine having that many close friends (and how many more non-close friends do you have?). To me it seems like it would require an almost obsessive level of effort to maintain, like to the extent that it's basically the only thing you do outside of work. Which I suppose would have been easier without the internet to distract you, but still.
[+] [-] Marcus9|4 years ago|reply
When I was in high school, I had over 30 friends who I was close with- we had classes together during the day, sports practices together in the evening, and spent our weekends together at the same social gathers.
Then we all scattered for college, and social networks broke down as each of us individually were now nodes on separate, non-connected groups. We had our "college friends" and our "high school friends" who mostly didn't know one another or interact.
Then we all scattered again for jobs after college and our friendships became increasingly strained, difficult and disconnected. Our high school best friend was a thousand miles away and living a very different life now. Our college friends only got together as a group at weddings and bachelor parties. Our new 20-something friend groups were constantly in flux as people got into serious relationships, focused on careers or moved around.
If I'd grown up in the 1950s and stayed in my hometown after high school along with all my friends, I'd have a rich, deep history with 30+ friends. Instead, I have 100 people who I was close to for a few years at a time but who I'm only presently close with a few.
[+] [-] paperwasp42|4 years ago|reply
https://web.archive.org/web/20210423122109/https://www.nytim...
https://web.archive.org/web/20210716143848/https://www.nytim...
[+] [-] the_only_law|4 years ago|reply
It may be just a consequence of my circumstances, but work for me has never been the place to “make friends” and actually remote work enables my social life more, even by just a minuscule amount.
In regards to making friends in general. I always find myself the odd one out in every environment. At work particularly, I’m typically substantially younger than my colleagues some of which are old enough to be my parents or grandparents. Not that you cannot develop friendships with an age gap like that, but I don’t think it’s advisable. Majority of these people have there own life, are in the process of settling down or have their own families already. We are simply at different stages of life and it’s unlikely to result in any true friendships.
I don’t really have a social life either, which feels pretty faking at my age, but I do try to go out at least once or twice in the weekends. Over the years, I’ve had a number of acquaintances I’ve met, but no friends really. In most of the groups I hang out in, I find the same issue as work, though on a smaller scale. Still generally to young to develop any sort of bond with the people I’m with, but the gap tends to be smaller so that there’s still some things we can relate on. If I’m not the youngest in the room, it seems in the oldest, which is honestly an even more uneasy feeling as I have a hard time relating to most of my own generation, despite certainly exhibiting some characteristics of it.
Some people in this thread have additionally mentioned the resource of time as an inhibitor to developing friendships. I can understand this. I generally enjoy the occasions I get to go out or sometimes stay home and enjoy myself, but there’s always an uneasy feeling about how afterwards it’ll be another week of mindless wageslaving before I get a chance to to relax again.
Ultimately, I haven’t really made any friends since I was maybe 15 or so. This makes sense though, as since adulthood, I’ve basically been divorced from any sort of environment where young people find themselves. Having never gone to school I was mostly isolated from my peers from 18-24, and while there are many people at that age who do not tend to go to school and do well socially, I believe that at least a small majority of those people tend to choose paths that put them in communities with similar people, whereas I’ve always been out of place, demographically speaking, whether that be in impoverished dumps or next to moderately wealthy professionals/retirees. Though I am now coming around to the age where many of my peers will leave school and enter the “real world” I don’t think much will come of it as I have a bad history of always being in the wrong place at the wrong time (doubly so career wise, ha)
[+] [-] russellbeattie|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yepthatsreality|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ethbr0|4 years ago|reply
Our policies are mostly geared around creating never-ending strip malls, endless suburban neighborhoods, and omnipresent traffic issues. Because these things most efficiently create tax revenue, happy "what my parents had" families, and income segregated areas.
Similar to college, fixing America starts with deciding that everyone doesn't need a single family home in a popular metro.
[+] [-] Mountain_Skies|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xyzzy21|4 years ago|reply
So true. With the political polarization so common now, you can become isolated and then alienated quite easily.
I'd add that being a man, especially if married, as you age your social circle radically declines. Getting divorced radically improved that for me. And I'm not even talking about the opposite sex - I have more guy friends now that 10, 20 years ago. There's a space that NO wife or GF can ever fill...
[+] [-] cuddlybacon|4 years ago|reply
As someone who believes in the Moral Foundations Theory, I don't think it's an accident that the places that are known for low friendships tend to be culturally liberal places. Since most probably don't know what Moral Foundations Theory is, a quick and dirty version is that all moral judgement can be reduced to the following core values (or moral foundations) which I copied from Wikipedia:
* Care: cherishing and protecting others; opposite of harm
* Fairness or proportionality: rendering justice according to shared rules; opposite of cheating
* Loyalty or ingroup: standing with your group, family, nation; opposite of betrayal
* Authority or respect: submitting to tradition and legitimate authority; opposite of subversion
* Sanctity or purity: abhorrence for disgusting things, foods, actions; opposite of degradation
I'm also a fan of the tentatively accepted liberty vs oppression foundation. I really think it should be renamed to something like agency vs domination. Anyways, it would value being able to make decision on choices deemed important and rejecting those who coerce others.
Anyways, culturally liberal places pick care vs harm as their primary value and in some cases have made it the default choice for answering moral issues. I think this naturally leads to guess culture. You get told as a child, frequently, that saying "no" can hurt the askers feelings. You learn to feel bad for saying "no", since it violates care vs harm. You realize that the person you are about to ask a question to is going to feel bad if they say "no". Making them feel bad would be harm, so asking would be harm... unless you can figure out if they'd say yes. That's how I think a guess culture would develop.
The reason I bring up moral foundations at all is I believe the solution is in the last 3 foundations: loyalty, authority, and purity. Those 3 are characterized as the group-ish ones. They are what separate acquaintances from friends, neighbourhoods from communities, and coworkers from a team.
[0] - https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/05/askers-...
[+] [-] warglebargle|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] joelbondurant|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bississippi|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cryptica|4 years ago|reply