Life without parole, given to someone who is 13 beggars belief. How can someone believe that that is what is best for society?
We are basically different people every 5-10 years and at that age even every 2 or 3.
A 13 year old committing this kind of crime is more an indictment of the country/county/city failing that it is a reflection of the person. Should there be a punishment? Certainly. Should there be rehabilitation and education as well (more so even)? Yes.
Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. The judge mustn’t have viewed this boy as a person, the only way you can doll out these kinds of punishment is to see the person as some kind of animal. I dread to think how many other cases they issued similar horrendous sentences on.
We can't keep pretending that our justice system is utilitarian. It's so very clearly not about helping those that commit crimes improve themselves. If it was, we wouldn't be punishing people with literal torture methods such as solitary, and we wouldn't care so much about being 'tough on crime'. We need to refocus our justice system on the criminalization process so that we reduce the importance of 'correctional' facilities. There is nothing utilitarian about the above story, let's not deceive ourselves.
> Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable.
Yes, it is very odd. It seems like a lot of people have gone to a lot of effort to keep Ian Manuel in prison- but why? What is the motivation here? Profit? Revenge? Public safety? Who benefits when kids are incarcerated for decades?
> No programs or classes, no visitors, phone calls, or human touch, deprived of books, magazines, TV, and radio, and barred from talking or even looking out of his cell door
And this for a 13-year-old, who was sentenced to life without parole. WTF.
Heartbreaking. A US citizen is likely not fully aware of the caprice and barbarity of the criminal justice system until it touches their lives somehow, but once seen it cannot be unseen. I have a cousin in prison 10 years into a 20 year stretch, and my horror at her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands.
Just from reading a couple articles about Elizabeth Crafton in that county her story sounds horrific. It seems like she knowingly exposed her children to a violent person who beat and tortured them. She observed injuries "appearing" on her daughter and knew her boyfriend was violent and never connected the dots?
I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add?
"The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet.
The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist...
Civilized society is just an illusion. Imagine. How many people with power and authority must have known about Ian Manuel, and did nothing about it. What is civlilized about that?
And finally the action had to come from a non-government body, even after the POTUS banned the thing?
Why is it even possible to “charge [someone] as an adult”. If you have the concept of “adult” and “child”, and a line in between them, how can the crime dictate someone’s mental maturity?
(Of course the answer is, I’m sure, is selective enforcement. So they can lock up black kids and let white kids off the hook.)
I don’t know how it feels and hope I never have to feel the grief that a homicide of a loved one. I also don’t think that locking a 14 year old up for their entire natural life is appropriate either. My son is 13. He is not even close to being capable of understanding the long range consequences of his actions right now. I could see how letting him roam around the streets without adult supervision could put him in a very tough spot. IMO At this age kids need love and guidance and small doses of agency to allow them to make choices and learn how to navigate the world. I think that a lot of these kids that end up in this circumstance are likely from broken or otherwise dysfunctional homes. I’m not sure how to fix it, but life in prison doesn’t seem to be the right way.
TO me this is the most amazing piece of the story:
> With few contacts on the outside, Ian reached out to the shooting victim, Debbie Berkovits, to ask for her forgiveness, which she gave. A remarkable relationship emerged in which Ms. Berkovits became a supporter for a reduced sentence for Ian. But courts were nonresponsive.
Just to explain the POV of the state, i.e. "why dont they release him if the victim is fine with it":
One of the reasons for incarcerations is vengeance, and another one is protecting the community from further crime.
If the victim forgives the perpetrator, you could argue no vengeance is necessary anymore; however, this person could still be a danger to future victims.
A life sentence for a 13yo is harsh of course, I am just trying to explain why the courts not letting him go after the victim forgave him is not as surprising as one might think at first.
The sheer number of judges, bureaucrats, prison administrators, prison guards, medical staff, and dozens of other people who would have come across this boy and his plight over those decades would have been significant.
That none of them would, or could, do anything to ease his suffering even in some small way is disappointing. I hope I could do better in a similar position of authority.
Life without parole is an inhumane form of punishment. It takes away the mere chance that someone, after having bettered him or herself and paid their debt to society can be included in society again, which in my opinion is the only justified basis on which to incarcerate someone in the first place.
The US and most countries' prison system seeks to punish and extract cheap labor out of prisoners, not rehabilitate them for reintroduction to society. It's big business[1].
Cases like this are not uncommon. People slip through the cracks, get stuck fighting the legal system, and eventually with enough luck and media attention the government can go "oops" and reverse a decision that often has ruined people's lives. There's no accountability and this keeps happening.
>During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder.
>That’s when 13-year-old Ian pulled the trigger and shot her right in the face. The outcome could have been fatal. “It blew out all the bottom teeth and the gums on the lower left side of my mouth,” she said.
That’s when 13-year-old Ian pulled the trigger and shot her right in the face. The outcome could have been fatal. “It blew out all the bottom teeth and the gums on the lower left side of my mouth,” she said.
“ 13-year-old Ian was directed by older juveniles to commit a robbery.
During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder.”
The US "justice system" is a farce, and a worth reason to leave the United States. I have a brother that was a troublesome teen, and the police basically never let him alone. Situations cascaded simply due to immature behavior on both sides, but the police are institutionally not supposed to be immature children, but THEY ARE! After decades of harassment, he left and now lives very happily in Germany.
In my experience, statements like the one you quoted are generally just made up on the spot, and the author adds phrases like "advanced nation" so he can weasel his way out if someone bothers to do a minimum of research and finds a counter example.
I am always shocked how cruel some people can be, and so many of them. Even in this thread, there are people who _approve_ these atrocities. There isn’t much hope for the world.
[+] [-] simonbarker87|4 years ago|reply
We are basically different people every 5-10 years and at that age even every 2 or 3.
A 13 year old committing this kind of crime is more an indictment of the country/county/city failing that it is a reflection of the person. Should there be a punishment? Certainly. Should there be rehabilitation and education as well (more so even)? Yes.
Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. The judge mustn’t have viewed this boy as a person, the only way you can doll out these kinds of punishment is to see the person as some kind of animal. I dread to think how many other cases they issued similar horrendous sentences on.
[+] [-] toomanyducks|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fergie|4 years ago|reply
Yes, it is very odd. It seems like a lot of people have gone to a lot of effort to keep Ian Manuel in prison- but why? What is the motivation here? Profit? Revenge? Public safety? Who benefits when kids are incarcerated for decades?
[+] [-] Clewza313|4 years ago|reply
And this for a 13-year-old, who was sentenced to life without parole. WTF.
[+] [-] knownjorbist|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tpush|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drno123|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rendall|4 years ago|reply
Edit: she's "Elizabeth Crafton" in this article https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-moth...
[+] [-] ALittleLight|4 years ago|reply
I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add?
"The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet.
The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist...
https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-aft...
https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-...
[+] [-] forcry|4 years ago|reply
Civilized society is just an illusion. Imagine. How many people with power and authority must have known about Ian Manuel, and did nothing about it. What is civlilized about that?
And finally the action had to come from a non-government body, even after the POTUS banned the thing?
[+] [-] ur-whale|4 years ago|reply
Here's to hoping you left the US altogether.
[+] [-] mkelly|4 years ago|reply
(Of course the answer is, I’m sure, is selective enforcement. So they can lock up black kids and let white kids off the hook.)
[+] [-] Aerroon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rscoots|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tomcatfish|4 years ago|reply
What on earth? Solitary confinement starting as a child, potentially for life? What a weird way for this to hash out.
Strictly speaking, not being around others may be good, but solitary is an overadjustment.
[+] [-] pstuart|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] S_A_P|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hkt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fortran77|4 years ago|reply
> With few contacts on the outside, Ian reached out to the shooting victim, Debbie Berkovits, to ask for her forgiveness, which she gave. A remarkable relationship emerged in which Ms. Berkovits became a supporter for a reduced sentence for Ian. But courts were nonresponsive.
[+] [-] axiosgunnar|4 years ago|reply
One of the reasons for incarcerations is vengeance, and another one is protecting the community from further crime.
If the victim forgives the perpetrator, you could argue no vengeance is necessary anymore; however, this person could still be a danger to future victims.
A life sentence for a 13yo is harsh of course, I am just trying to explain why the courts not letting him go after the victim forgave him is not as surprising as one might think at first.
[+] [-] fisherjeff|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmacd|4 years ago|reply
That none of them would, or could, do anything to ease his suffering even in some small way is disappointing. I hope I could do better in a similar position of authority.
[+] [-] Barrin92|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imiric|4 years ago|reply
Cases like this are not uncommon. People slip through the cracks, get stuck fighting the legal system, and eventually with enough luck and media attention the government can go "oops" and reverse a decision that often has ruined people's lives. There's no accountability and this keeps happening.
[1]: https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2018/12/09/the-american-pr...
[+] [-] gjs278|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] shadilay|4 years ago|reply
I'm confused, did he shoot her or not?
[+] [-] lmm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] falomor|4 years ago|reply
https://www.goalcast.com/2020/08/04/woman-frees-man-who-shot...
[+] [-] roschdal|4 years ago|reply
Which actions did Mr. Manuel do that resulted in his arrest?
[+] [-] HiroProtagonist|4 years ago|reply
That’s when 13-year-old Ian pulled the trigger and shot her right in the face. The outcome could have been fatal. “It blew out all the bottom teeth and the gums on the lower left side of my mouth,” she said.
[+] [-] rebuilder|4 years ago|reply
“ 13-year-old Ian was directed by older juveniles to commit a robbery.
During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder.”
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] azundo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bsenftner|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randompwd|4 years ago|reply
Was he putting other people in danger? What actions was he doing that caused the police to get involved?
Great that he's happy now but would he have continued down a more dangerous path if left to his own devices?
[+] [-] scotty79|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wombatmobile|4 years ago|reply
What is the definition of "advanced nation"?
[+] [-] agent327|4 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Ki...
Oh look, the UK has 40 people in solitary confinement. I guess the UK doesn't qualify as an advanced nation then?
[+] [-] rsynnott|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] radmuzom|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atemerev|4 years ago|reply