Oh that's "Apple doesn't do anything, even the screens are from Samsung" argument. I'm not going to drill on that but I think you are underestimating Turkey's capabilities.
Erdogan is just one dictator that is in free fall just like the economy he created. He probably wouldn't be around as a politician in few years.
Despite its troubles, Turkey is still a very rich and capable country. It does have an established manufacturing industry with expertise in many areas including aviation.
Thanks to the rise of anti-immigration sentiment and xenophobia in the west, Turkey's talent pool is not draining as fast as it could have.
Because of the lira going down to the drain, an Engineer in Turkey costs $800 to $3000 a month, depending on the seniority. Housing, food etc everything is also cheeper.
Turkey's GINI coefficient is horrible, which means the country does actually has capital concentration. The nationalistic sentiment and culturally obedient population makes it much more sustainable to spend money on military projects.
What Turkey lacks is advanced electronics but they are working on it. For example, the Canadian IR camera sensor that they no longer want to sell is to be replaced with indigenous one. Unfortunately, that one will be heavier and larger which would probably affect other aspects of the drones in question - like range and speed, probably.
I wouldn't underestimate or dismiss them. This is what happened with China, they were making ball point pens in the 80s and then after 40 years they sent a rover to Mars and threaten their neighbours in the South China Sea.
Turkey is involved in wars all over North Africa and the Caucaz region. They're paying for mercenaries fighting in Libya and are suplying one side with drones. They supplied Azerbaidjan with drones and mercenaries.
> Turkey does not have the expertise nor money to build this.
Heck, its pretty much what the US didn't have the combination of expertise and money to carry out with the UCLASS project, whose requirements got signficantly relaxed into an unmanned tanker with minimal combat capability project (CBARS) and produced the Boeing MQ-25.
And thanks to the American moral leadership with drones innocent people will not be bombed. /s oh wait the US just put the Whistleblower that showed most US drone attacks kill innocent people in prison for 4 years. Our moral standing in the world is in the gutter which is extremely sad. Don't expect Turkey to be even close to the US moral standard. We are heading to a very sad future.
The trouble is that Turkey is a NATO member and there’re some rules on the weapons, turkey has already bought from Russia the S400 missile system and then they have been obliged from US (and NATO) to put them “offline”, so what’s the point in announcing a new drone to fight the F35 from NATO? Just the usual defiance from Erdogan?
There might be debate over whether Turkish drones “won” two of them, and the third (Turkey’s ongoing war with domestic Kurdish insurgents) hasn’t been won at all, much less by Turkish drones.
Normally, that's a recipe for cronyism(like with the other relatives of Erdogan) however in the case on that son-in-law, the situation is not so bleak, at least for Turkey.
The guy graduated from Robert College, which is an American established school in Istanbul with a historically exceptional education and high standards to get in. Later he graduated from Istanbul Technical University, which is 250 years old ivy league university, one of the best in Turkey - again high requirements to get in and famous for being hard to graduate.
Then he receives scholarship from University of Pensilvania for his masters degree. The next school is MIT(Massachusetts Institute of Technology) where he works on autonomous, aggressive maneuvering of Unmanned Helicopter Systems.
His father is an industrialist(Also an Engineer, who studied at METU - the other prestigious University in Turkey, which is founded with help from the USA), the founder of Baykar. After his studies he becomes the CTO of his fathers company, which again raises red flags but under his watch the company actually gets transformed into one of the leading companies in military UAV.
Later in 2016, he married Erdogan's daughter. A strategic marriage? Who knows, but that's way after he becomes an accomplished engineer.
There are early videos of him workings his ass off as if he is in a SV company. When Turkey fails procure foreign made UAVs, Turkey partners with Baykar and the guy actually works on his R&D in the remote parts of the country at the front lines together with the military personel.
When Turkey engaged in military actions in the past years, these drones actually proved to be very effective. Numerous Russian-made air defence systems were destroyed, making the headlines for being first.
Although I feel uneasy using this word for situation where human beings were killed, there was a constant feed on r/combatfootage of spectacular Bayraktar UAV footage engaging with enemy targets.
BTW, I find the guys political positions very repulsive. He tried to help his father in law during the elections and all his statements were hostile and divisive as of those of right wing extremists. Maybe he should focus on the engineering and get over all that Erdogan's son in law thing.
Also, I need to point out that he is not in charge of Turkey's drone R&D but CTO of only one of the companies. There are multiple UAV developers, private and state owned companies that has nothing to do with Bayraktar. They do higher end stuff or other kind of drones like kamikaze drones.
Turkey enjoys some rather strong technical talent in Ankara, the capital, where some of the best schools in the country are located. Ankara, having comparatively small population to Istanbul(6M vs 15M) doesn't have the best career opportunities as Istanbul makes it a hot stpot for hiring for the defence industry.
Unfortunately, due to the political situation in Turkey, a lot of talent is fleeing abroad. Last year it made it to the news when the Dutch ASML hired from the Turkish defence industry en mass.
> However, there are other US Senators who view Turkey as an important NATO ally. One such lawmaker is Victoria Nuland, the undersecretary of state for political affairs..."
This sounds very much right. Turkey's biggest problem with US, is that it doesn't know what trouble the Americans have with them. Every few years US politicians put something new on the table, and say it's a (new) problem.
Turkey is the biggest military ally USA have. Loosing it will be a "before, and after" moment for NATO.
Truly, USA's biggest problem with Turkey is exactly them being such a strong, and prominent military ally, throwing discord in US dominated bloc solely by the fact of its existence.
Points:
1. Turkey's ultimate political alignment is NATO
2. Turkey's current political position can be rationally understood, in comparison to more irate allies, playing their double, triple, quadruple games. It has tensions with NATO, and US, but not because its ultimate alignment, and commitment to Atlantic Bloc changed.
3. Turkey is a way more useful military ally US have than any EU NATO member. Both in military strength, and level of commitment.
4. Turkey is the sole country US can consider a real military ally among dozens of "ally" countries which USA buys with billions of dollars per year in defence aid: Saudis, Egyptians, Emiratis, Pakistanis, Jordanians, Israelis... they are all basically a $100B a year black hole for defence aid.
5. Turkey is the only non-white country with commitment to hosting American nuclear weapons, and other serious defence assets after South Korea, and Japan quit. This is currently American's sole proof of not seeking a "rich white world alliance" as its foreign policy vision — hugely symbolic.
They base this not on the drones but it's drone designed munitions, the MAM-L missile
Here is one of many videos of combat footage from the Ministry of Republic of Azerbaijan Defence channel, it is graphic of people dying - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUB3TLnpiWY
People claim it's the MAM-L, but I can't confirm.
One comment is Azerbaijan got a lot of footage because it uses drones, Armenia did not. The propaganda alone is interesting.
I'll say it again DARPA Subterranean Challenge is for urban warfare, because you can see in the videos they are running a MAM-L (I assume) into the bunker openings, subterranean is a solved problem. Cities are the only places left to hide.
I would not be underestimating Turkey's reach, but it's not "supersonic, stealth, 1.5 tons payload" if it's possible, it's continuing its cheap, light and willing to sell model.
If anyone recognises the missiles Azerbaijan are using in their videos are not Turkeys I'd be interested. Can you identify off the software or do drone operators use generic software?
How can one take this article seriously after the point on Azerbaijan using Turkish drones recently when in fact they also used Israeli Harop drones to great effect as well. Seems like the author is either ignorant or wants to create falsehoods by omission.
> after the point on Azerbaijan using Turkish drones recently
1. The article said "Turkey-backed Azerbaijani forces" which they were
2. The fact that they also used Israeli drones doesn't mean that Turkey didn't supply them with drones or that Turkey doesn't have drones, doesn't develop drones, or that Turkey doesn't want to be a player in umanned drones.
Azerbaijan used both Turkish and Israeli hardware. Probably others too.
But the Azerbaijan/Armenia conflict is widely seen as a proxy war between Turkey and Russia. Israel will sell their drones to (almost) anyone, and they haven't been seen as particularly decisive in this conflict.
The Turkish drones have very different strike capabilities that are much newer in this field.
It's disappointing to read the many comments here ignorant of the Turkish drone program.
I'm no fan of Erdoğan, but people should be aware that the Turkish military has put signifcant resources into drone based warfare over the last 10 years and is now one of the world leaders.
They are battle tested against peer-level opponents (Russian-backed Syrian government forces in Syria, and Russian backed opponents in Libya).
Erdoğan was recently busy throwing free tea to the crowds and random passers-by on the street to moralize them after people lost their houses to the fires. Dead serious.
Sultan Çayipp (google Erdogan Çay fires) has been investing all of the nation’s wealth into weapons research and construction.
Why? Kickbacks. Bro has his own Airbus A380, a 1,000 bedroom palace, and a suspicious amount of money for a third string middle class football player who has been a civil servant for 35 years.
I question that his son in law is the wünderkind people thinm he is. Çaydoğan’ own idiot son Bilal was supposedly a high performer at Berkeley but not a single person remembers him even attending the school.
Robert’s College, Bogacizi, itu, Galatasaray uni & lisesi.. pretty much every reputable turkish school, all 5 of them, can be bought.
There is a saying in Turkiye which translates roughly to, “explain it as if you are explaining it to Bulal”
With Jeffrey Epstein, MIT has shown to be corrupt and buyable.
Teadoğan’s son in law is the neo ottoman version of jared kushner and nothing more.
Well, it seems that you think the son in law is not actually successful and he bought his ticket into those places (MIT, Robert's College etc.).
Let's assume that he did (although I think it is BS), can you ignore the fact that the drones he is in charge of building are gaining advantages on battlefield?
With references you made in this post, I can clearly understand you are from Turkey or at least lived in Turkey for quite some time. But let me tell you something, your hate towards current rule of power in Turkey makes you so blind that you are striking everything that comes from it regardless of whether it is good or bad. FFS stop doing this or do it somewhere else. Do not shitpost here (reasonably high quality platform to discuss ideas) with references that nobody isn't interested in Turkey's daily politics are able to understand.
[+] [-] newdude116|4 years ago|reply
Drones, they were merely assembling them from suppliers, e.g. https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/suspending-drone-supply-to-t... or https://hetq.am/en/article/126227
I doubt that Turkey won three wars with drones, as mentioned in the thread here. But they helped at least win one battle (Azerbaijan).
Turkey is of tremendous geo-strategical importance but lacks technology, oil/gas and money.
- Big importer of Energy
- Huge trade balance deficit
- Currency in free-fall
Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s image and Turkey’s economy are both taking a battering
https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/07/08/recep-tayyip-erd...
I think Erdo should focus on other things than trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire.
[+] [-] mrtksn|4 years ago|reply
Erdogan is just one dictator that is in free fall just like the economy he created. He probably wouldn't be around as a politician in few years.
Despite its troubles, Turkey is still a very rich and capable country. It does have an established manufacturing industry with expertise in many areas including aviation.
Thanks to the rise of anti-immigration sentiment and xenophobia in the west, Turkey's talent pool is not draining as fast as it could have.
Because of the lira going down to the drain, an Engineer in Turkey costs $800 to $3000 a month, depending on the seniority. Housing, food etc everything is also cheeper.
Turkey's GINI coefficient is horrible, which means the country does actually has capital concentration. The nationalistic sentiment and culturally obedient population makes it much more sustainable to spend money on military projects.
What Turkey lacks is advanced electronics but they are working on it. For example, the Canadian IR camera sensor that they no longer want to sell is to be replaced with indigenous one. Unfortunately, that one will be heavier and larger which would probably affect other aspects of the drones in question - like range and speed, probably.
[+] [-] petre|4 years ago|reply
Turkey is involved in wars all over North Africa and the Caucaz region. They're paying for mercenaries fighting in Libya and are suplying one side with drones. They supplied Azerbaidjan with drones and mercenaries.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|4 years ago|reply
Heck, its pretty much what the US didn't have the combination of expertise and money to carry out with the UCLASS project, whose requirements got signficantly relaxed into an unmanned tanker with minimal combat capability project (CBARS) and produced the Boeing MQ-25.
[+] [-] aaaxyz|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keewee7|4 years ago|reply
>Turkey used these drones to eliminate Kurdish resistance within Turkish borders
>Turkey used drones to defeat various groups in Syria that were opposing Turkish influence
>Azerbaijan used Turkish drones to win the war against Armenia
The succesful Turkish drone program is named after a Turkish MIT graduate who played a central role in the development of these drones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayraktar_TB2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sel%C3%A7uk_Bayraktar
Drone wars have come to stay.
[+] [-] sschueller|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giuliomagnifico|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|4 years ago|reply
There might be debate over whether Turkish drones “won” two of them, and the third (Turkey’s ongoing war with domestic Kurdish insurgents) hasn’t been won at all, much less by Turkish drones.
[+] [-] dmitriid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve19|4 years ago|reply
I am sure being Erdoğan's son in law helped more to obtain his position than being an MIT graduate.
[+] [-] frostburg|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrtksn|4 years ago|reply
The guy graduated from Robert College, which is an American established school in Istanbul with a historically exceptional education and high standards to get in. Later he graduated from Istanbul Technical University, which is 250 years old ivy league university, one of the best in Turkey - again high requirements to get in and famous for being hard to graduate.
Then he receives scholarship from University of Pensilvania for his masters degree. The next school is MIT(Massachusetts Institute of Technology) where he works on autonomous, aggressive maneuvering of Unmanned Helicopter Systems.
His father is an industrialist(Also an Engineer, who studied at METU - the other prestigious University in Turkey, which is founded with help from the USA), the founder of Baykar. After his studies he becomes the CTO of his fathers company, which again raises red flags but under his watch the company actually gets transformed into one of the leading companies in military UAV.
Later in 2016, he married Erdogan's daughter. A strategic marriage? Who knows, but that's way after he becomes an accomplished engineer.
There are early videos of him workings his ass off as if he is in a SV company. When Turkey fails procure foreign made UAVs, Turkey partners with Baykar and the guy actually works on his R&D in the remote parts of the country at the front lines together with the military personel.
When Turkey engaged in military actions in the past years, these drones actually proved to be very effective. Numerous Russian-made air defence systems were destroyed, making the headlines for being first.
Although I feel uneasy using this word for situation where human beings were killed, there was a constant feed on r/combatfootage of spectacular Bayraktar UAV footage engaging with enemy targets.
BTW, I find the guys political positions very repulsive. He tried to help his father in law during the elections and all his statements were hostile and divisive as of those of right wing extremists. Maybe he should focus on the engineering and get over all that Erdogan's son in law thing.
Also, I need to point out that he is not in charge of Turkey's drone R&D but CTO of only one of the companies. There are multiple UAV developers, private and state owned companies that has nothing to do with Bayraktar. They do higher end stuff or other kind of drones like kamikaze drones.
Turkey enjoys some rather strong technical talent in Ankara, the capital, where some of the best schools in the country are located. Ankara, having comparatively small population to Istanbul(6M vs 15M) doesn't have the best career opportunities as Istanbul makes it a hot stpot for hiring for the defence industry.
Unfortunately, due to the political situation in Turkey, a lot of talent is fleeing abroad. Last year it made it to the news when the Dutch ASML hired from the Turkish defence industry en mass.
[+] [-] jacksonkmarley|4 years ago|reply
That doesn't sound right.
[+] [-] jacksonkmarley|4 years ago|reply
This was just a comment on the obvious factual inaccuracy of the statement: Victoria Nuland is not a US Senator or "lawmaker".
[+] [-] nl|4 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
[+] [-] cheif-lama|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] baybal2|4 years ago|reply
Turkey is the biggest military ally USA have. Loosing it will be a "before, and after" moment for NATO.
Truly, USA's biggest problem with Turkey is exactly them being such a strong, and prominent military ally, throwing discord in US dominated bloc solely by the fact of its existence.
Points:
1. Turkey's ultimate political alignment is NATO
2. Turkey's current political position can be rationally understood, in comparison to more irate allies, playing their double, triple, quadruple games. It has tensions with NATO, and US, but not because its ultimate alignment, and commitment to Atlantic Bloc changed.
3. Turkey is a way more useful military ally US have than any EU NATO member. Both in military strength, and level of commitment.
4. Turkey is the sole country US can consider a real military ally among dozens of "ally" countries which USA buys with billions of dollars per year in defence aid: Saudis, Egyptians, Emiratis, Pakistanis, Jordanians, Israelis... they are all basically a $100B a year black hole for defence aid.
5. Turkey is the only non-white country with commitment to hosting American nuclear weapons, and other serious defence assets after South Korea, and Japan quit. This is currently American's sole proof of not seeking a "rich white world alliance" as its foreign policy vision — hugely symbolic.
[+] [-] aaron695|4 years ago|reply
They base this not on the drones but it's drone designed munitions, the MAM-L missile
Here is one of many videos of combat footage from the Ministry of Republic of Azerbaijan Defence channel, it is graphic of people dying - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUB3TLnpiWY
People claim it's the MAM-L, but I can't confirm.
One comment is Azerbaijan got a lot of footage because it uses drones, Armenia did not. The propaganda alone is interesting.
I'll say it again DARPA Subterranean Challenge is for urban warfare, because you can see in the videos they are running a MAM-L (I assume) into the bunker openings, subterranean is a solved problem. Cities are the only places left to hide.
I would not be underestimating Turkey's reach, but it's not "supersonic, stealth, 1.5 tons payload" if it's possible, it's continuing its cheap, light and willing to sell model.
If anyone recognises the missiles Azerbaijan are using in their videos are not Turkeys I'd be interested. Can you identify off the software or do drone operators use generic software?
[+] [-] 1cvmask|4 years ago|reply
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/israeli-drones-used-by-aze...
[+] [-] dmitriid|4 years ago|reply
1. The article said "Turkey-backed Azerbaijani forces" which they were
2. The fact that they also used Israeli drones doesn't mean that Turkey didn't supply them with drones or that Turkey doesn't have drones, doesn't develop drones, or that Turkey doesn't want to be a player in umanned drones.
[+] [-] nl|4 years ago|reply
But the Azerbaijan/Armenia conflict is widely seen as a proxy war between Turkey and Russia. Israel will sell their drones to (almost) anyone, and they haven't been seen as particularly decisive in this conflict.
The Turkish drones have very different strike capabilities that are much newer in this field.
[+] [-] cheif-lama|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nl|4 years ago|reply
I'm no fan of Erdoğan, but people should be aware that the Turkish military has put signifcant resources into drone based warfare over the last 10 years and is now one of the world leaders.
They are battle tested against peer-level opponents (Russian-backed Syrian government forces in Syria, and Russian backed opponents in Libya).
Further information:
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27161/Some_23_Russian_Pant...
https://warontherocks.com/2021/06/say-hello-to-turkeys-littl...
https://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/turkish-drones/
[+] [-] eunos|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] petre|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacksonandphil|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egeozcan|4 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/marklowen/status/1421579359983448072
[+] [-] cblconfederate|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bencollier49|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Havoc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] f0xytr0xy|4 years ago|reply
Why? Kickbacks. Bro has his own Airbus A380, a 1,000 bedroom palace, and a suspicious amount of money for a third string middle class football player who has been a civil servant for 35 years.
I question that his son in law is the wünderkind people thinm he is. Çaydoğan’ own idiot son Bilal was supposedly a high performer at Berkeley but not a single person remembers him even attending the school.
Robert’s College, Bogacizi, itu, Galatasaray uni & lisesi.. pretty much every reputable turkish school, all 5 of them, can be bought.
There is a saying in Turkiye which translates roughly to, “explain it as if you are explaining it to Bulal”
With Jeffrey Epstein, MIT has shown to be corrupt and buyable.
Teadoğan’s son in law is the neo ottoman version of jared kushner and nothing more.
[+] [-] throwaway145371|4 years ago|reply
Let's assume that he did (although I think it is BS), can you ignore the fact that the drones he is in charge of building are gaining advantages on battlefield?
With references you made in this post, I can clearly understand you are from Turkey or at least lived in Turkey for quite some time. But let me tell you something, your hate towards current rule of power in Turkey makes you so blind that you are striking everything that comes from it regardless of whether it is good or bad. FFS stop doing this or do it somewhere else. Do not shitpost here (reasonably high quality platform to discuss ideas) with references that nobody isn't interested in Turkey's daily politics are able to understand.