Am I to understand from this that the New York Times (and perhaps the bien pensant in the US) consider mere "comic books" some sort of gutter culture?
My last trip to Paris I spent a long time in these "comic book" stores. They are absolute goldmines with passionate and knowledgeable staff and incredible selections.
France has a long tradition of the "BD" (Bande Dessine = Comic Books) and a thriving community of illustrators and writers who make them. There are many great series which a lot of us French kids grew up with who had pretty intricate plots and were very well crafted.
I agree that sneering at Comic books as "not the culture we wanted" is BS. Culture is culture. French and Belgian comic books like "Asterix et les Gaulois" or "Tintin" or "Gaston La Gaffe" etc... are great works of comedy and art just like anything else.
I guess they are unhappy about teens buying manga? Real question is why French comic book artist aren't selling in Japan? There's a lot of Japanese tourists in France, that doesn't sound too far-fetched.
The impression I got from the article was that the author described comic books as separate from "highbrow arts"... but beyond that I got no impression of any of "gutter culture" implications.
I honestly just thought of it as an interesting article about what happens when you do the thing they describe. Not any particular judgment.
Comic books are culture. Whether you like that or not is a matter of taste. Personally I absolutely love 'Gaston' and 'Asterix', but also like some other old school ones. The newer stuff I don't feel much connection with.
Regardless of what you consider "culture", the French government had some conception of what kinds of things they wanted the teens to engage in, and this isn't it (even if it's worthwhile in its own right). I think that's the article's point, and the program may respond by restricting the funds' usage in the future.
Gaston is possibly some of the best humor I've ever seen in any cultural medium.
Tintin was gripping too, and arguably the greatest cultural icon to come from European comics.
In Spain we had a good comic culture from the 50s onwards, with perhaps one of the greatest exponents being Mortadelo y Filemón which had was hilarious and had some international exposure (I've seen it in German flea markets as Clever & Smart)
I agree that comics are culture too, but I can see how this will ruffle some feathers among people expecting that young kids would be buying thick tomes by Chateaubriand or attending Racine plays in droves.
This is a model of subsidy (vouchers, in essence) which some free-market economists can get behind as it still allows agency from individuals or markets. However what we're seeing is the very reason why others would staunchly oppose this kind of model...
Never read Gaston, might have to look it up. But I love Asterix and Tintin, which I read while growing up in India.
Interestingly the other comics I read were Phantom, Mandrake, Rip Kirby, Flash Gordon - available via a local publisher, Indrajal Comics [0], that were sent to us monthly (or was it weekly) via a subscription. Got introduced to all the *men much later.
As an aside, it's been a bit surprising to see the disconnect on so many topics regarding France in the NYT in the last few months.
This seems like just the latest (and fairly mild) episode of this, but it's still a bit puzzling to me as a former (sort of) journalist to see so much editorialising, and in this case, an utter lack of facts and context.
There's not much on the goals behind that pass, the impact of covid on many of the other options, or any background on the local "bd" culture that would explain the difference to the US comics culture to the reader. The title certainly doesn't help.
At that point I don't know if I'm just getting more picky with time, but the fact to editorialising ratio in the NYT seem to have shifted to, at least to me, a fairly uncomfortable level pretty much every time I stumble onto one of their articles.
I’ve personally stopped reading NYT specifically because of this editorializing vs just reporting issue. It’s really frustrating to see in individual articles; in the greater scheme of things, it’s sad to observe. NYT has always had blunders (eg 2003 war in Iraq), but this is something else altogether.
This weird inability to reflect reality I see day-to-day coupled with the insistence on anti-patterns of behaviour for those cancelling their subscriptions has prevented me from taking out a sub to the NYT. That's a shame, as some of the articles are great.
> the fact to editorialising ratio in the NYT seem to have shifted to, at least to me, a fairly uncomfortable level pretty much every time I stumble onto one of their articles
It’s not just you. You are waking up from the gell-mann amnesia.
Manga is explicitly mentioned in the introduction. If the government didn't want teens to buy comics, they would have excluded it, and most importantly, not mention manga on the front page!
If by that initiative, they get teens to go to their local bookstore instead of ordering their comics on Amazon, it is a huge win, and one of the big reasons this pass exists.
This article misses the point. The point is that at a time where teenagers' finances (= their parents') are not at their best (COVID), where theaters and libraries are closed-ish (COVID), where you can't just hang out freely at a coffee shop that offers free comics to read (COVID), where you can't side down in the aisles of the comic book store (COVID), they decided to give them $350. Nobody believed they'd use it to go see some Shakespeare, and nobody should. It's just dumb classicism.
Good on them to use it for something they LIKE instead of something someome else deems better for them.
Why is this pass described like in a vacuum when the country we’re still in a middle of a pandemic ?
> They can purchase tickets to movie showings, plays, concerts or museum exhibits. And they can sign up for dance, painting or drawing classes.
Oh you mean they didn’t rush to the theaters, that also were only reopened a few weeks ago, with many closing again ?
And the pass has limitation on what can be bought, only part of it can be spent online, and content or production has to be french and approved by the gov., which really reduces the options.
All in all this is to me a weird take on the situation.
Comic books are definitely culture. It's art and story-telling. They're at least as worthy of the title as any other book they might buy.
Sure, broadening their culture horizons would be good, if it was easy to enforce spending it on something you don't currently embrace.
I wished, and still wish, I had money that I could justify spending to buy comic books and getting into that.
I'm really not a fan of that sensationalist headline, trying to drive up outrage on both sides, ven though it doesn't say whether buying comic books is good or bad in the headline. The article even gives examples of how it can be beneficial, like teenagers buying from comics local shops instead of going online, or buying records locally, but ignores the fact that there's a pandemic that makes it hard to enjoy certain forms of entertainment that are pushed by this program. Overall, I don't think this is great and honest journalism, even if the content itself is interesting.
The NYT title is intentionally derisive and xenophobic. The words "comic books" and the French term bandes dessinées relate to two entirely different experiences.
In the US, comics are considered by the masses to be the bane of pubescent boys or puerile adults obsessed with superheros and cosplay.
In France, graphic books (they're not all novels) are an elevated and widely-used cultural resource. They're found in educated bookstores, museum shops, libraries, and basically everywhere. And you know what? They're terrific!
France (and Belgium) have access to wonderful historical series on every period you can name. Tons of biographies of famous, real people. And beautiful, illustrated tomes which they can use to spark their imagination and learning.
It would be more accurate to say that Americans aren't spending money on graphically illustrated books because that's not an accepted part of our culture here, rather than to try to slam the French for something cool that works well for them.
See also: Scott's McCloud's Reinventing Comics [0] and BDfugue [1], a terrific online store for bandes dessinées.
The NYT is using that term because most Americans have never even heard the more fitting English-language term "graphic novels", and wouldn't know what it meant if the NYT used it.
(Though, also, it's clickbait. They want to shock people into reading the article by asking an implicit question with an evocative contrast: highlighting the discrepancy of mood between a term usually used to refer to high-brow concepts — "Culture" — and a term usually applied to low-brow media — "Comic Books". The body of the article, though investigating a similar tension, doesn't carry that same derogatory editorial thrust.)
Nothing surprising. It seems odd and unrealistic to assume that people would spend windfall money on something they have no interest in or do not like.
Whatever cultural products people enjoy, it seems reasonable to expect that they would simply consume more of them if they had more money... Especially considering that the vast majority already has the purchasing power to consume whatever they want.
I feel like this behavior could have been predicted. I'm not going to say whether or not purchases of manga are bad, but to think students would consume high brow art and then to be disappointed is after the fact is pretty poor foresight.
Can we start to use the vast number of cultural experiments we've conducted to infer which will succeed in producing the desired outcomes? Can we start trying new experiments?
I'd like to see us give cash to students that do well in school or participate in sports, clubs, music, etc. (If the worry is that this primarily rewards students whose parents are wealthy, I'm not so sure. Wealthy kids might not be satisfied by the rewards.)
Are you implying this wasn't intentional? France (alongside Belgium) practically invented the comic industry, but in recent years I'd imagine that's been getting decimated by east Asian manga. If you want to inspire a generation to revitalise your comic industry, this doesn't seem like a bad way.
This NYT story/title has been mocked to death on French Twitter. The kids are reading. Manga, so what ? AND they're using culture-money to PAY the artists they like, even though they get their manga off the Internet for free. Isn't the greatest outcome possible? Sure, French artists might have wanted that money flowing back to French artists... But if they like it and when given a choice will pay for it... Maybe there's not enough market (want) for French BD or culture as it is today...
What are they mocking? It seems from your comment that the facts were reported accurately. Money is going towards manga, so not towards French creators. This is a government program, so the intention is to support French artists, is it not?
> (Sir Humphrey to Bernard)..subsidy..Is for art, for culture. It is not to be given to what the people want. It is for what the people don't want but ought to have! If they want something they'll pay for it themselves! No, we subsidies education, enlightenment, spiritual uplift. Not the vulgar pastimes of ordinary people.
I thought the same! A funny exchange on the merits of subsidizing highbrow entertainment like opera vs lowbrow 'mainstream' industries like football and films.
Comic books (and manga/graphic novels/etc.) sound like a good plan, especially during a pandemic where much of live performance either has shut down or remains risky.
Getting more kids into physical book and record stores seems like a nice effect as well. Not everything needs to be purchased from Amazon or streamed on Spotify.
I'd also expect to see more live events as the pandemic (hopefully) wanes.
> And while the Culture Pass can be spent on video games, the game’s publisher must be French, and the game must not feature violence — conditions so restrictive that most popular titles are unavailable.
Ah, I was wondering why games weren't higher on the list.
Some good old elitism from NYT. Worth mentioning that France has reduced prices to cultural expos for students, and there are plenty that are free! They can enjoy comic books AND art expos.
The NYT clearly doesn't understand that comics are not necessarily considered low brow culture in France and Belgium. Comic books don't have the same reputation in France and Belgium as they do in the USA.
I get cultural allowance from my workplace and it's very limited as to what I can actually use it. I can't actually buy any things with it - no books, no comic books, no music, no games, nothing. It's mainly for movie and concert tickets - which has made this benefit rather useless for the past year and a half. I'd much prefer this system where I can actually buy cultural stuff to keep.
That's a silly thing to worry about. Businesses would scream bloody murder if their industry ended up on a no-buy list, and given a choice, governments kowtow to their interests.
Cui bono?
Governments also have far more effective, simpler-to-implement instruments for stopping the operation of undesirable businesses. Tariffs, taxes, and bans.
jgrahamc|4 years ago
My last trip to Paris I spent a long time in these "comic book" stores. They are absolute goldmines with passionate and knowledgeable staff and incredible selections.
imperio59|4 years ago
I agree that sneering at Comic books as "not the culture we wanted" is BS. Culture is culture. French and Belgian comic books like "Asterix et les Gaulois" or "Tintin" or "Gaston La Gaffe" etc... are great works of comedy and art just like anything else.
908B64B197|4 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix
https://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2014/03/asterix-and-the-bl...
I guess they are unhappy about teens buying manga? Real question is why French comic book artist aren't selling in Japan? There's a lot of Japanese tourists in France, that doesn't sound too far-fetched.
mtts|4 years ago
duxup|4 years ago
I honestly just thought of it as an interesting article about what happens when you do the thing they describe. Not any particular judgment.
realo|4 years ago
Here is an example:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus
Yes… this is definitely art in my book.
jacquesm|4 years ago
yann2|4 years ago
No accident that part of the world produced Herge and Mobieus and inspired Miyazaki.
ashtonkem|4 years ago
SilasX|4 years ago
arcturus17|4 years ago
Tintin was gripping too, and arguably the greatest cultural icon to come from European comics.
In Spain we had a good comic culture from the 50s onwards, with perhaps one of the greatest exponents being Mortadelo y Filemón which had was hilarious and had some international exposure (I've seen it in German flea markets as Clever & Smart)
I agree that comics are culture too, but I can see how this will ruffle some feathers among people expecting that young kids would be buying thick tomes by Chateaubriand or attending Racine plays in droves.
This is a model of subsidy (vouchers, in essence) which some free-market economists can get behind as it still allows agency from individuals or markets. However what we're seeing is the very reason why others would staunchly oppose this kind of model...
yumraj|4 years ago
Interestingly the other comics I read were Phantom, Mandrake, Rip Kirby, Flash Gordon - available via a local publisher, Indrajal Comics [0], that were sent to us monthly (or was it weekly) via a subscription. Got introduced to all the *men much later.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indrajal_Comics
jsilence|4 years ago
It IS culture.
arrrg|4 years ago
arp242|4 years ago
cwizou|4 years ago
This seems like just the latest (and fairly mild) episode of this, but it's still a bit puzzling to me as a former (sort of) journalist to see so much editorialising, and in this case, an utter lack of facts and context.
There's not much on the goals behind that pass, the impact of covid on many of the other options, or any background on the local "bd" culture that would explain the difference to the US comics culture to the reader. The title certainly doesn't help.
At that point I don't know if I'm just getting more picky with time, but the fact to editorialising ratio in the NYT seem to have shifted to, at least to me, a fairly uncomfortable level pretty much every time I stumble onto one of their articles.
not_exactly__|4 years ago
nagrom|4 years ago
https://londonist.com/london/food-and-drink/until-recently-l...
https://unherd.com/2020/01/what-has-the-new-york-times-got-a...
This weird inability to reflect reality I see day-to-day coupled with the insistence on anti-patterns of behaviour for those cancelling their subscriptions has prevented me from taking out a sub to the NYT. That's a shame, as some of the articles are great.
asdff|4 years ago
https://www.latimes.com/food/la-fo-nyc-restaurant-scene-apri...
908B64B197|4 years ago
Not the NYT, but I still remember the "No go zones" CNN boasted about. [0] [1]
I still remember French co-workers having a good laugh at it. It's tough to fact-check anything when you don't speak the language.
[0] https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/01/cnn-apologizes-...
[1] https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/01/21/natpkg-look-at-pari...
zepto|4 years ago
It’s not just you. You are waking up from the gell-mann amnesia.
rossdavidh|4 years ago
GuB-42|4 years ago
Manga is explicitly mentioned in the introduction. If the government didn't want teens to buy comics, they would have excluded it, and most importantly, not mention manga on the front page!
If by that initiative, they get teens to go to their local bookstore instead of ordering their comics on Amazon, it is a huge win, and one of the big reasons this pass exists.
mombul|4 years ago
Good on them to use it for something they LIKE instead of something someome else deems better for them.
makeitdouble|4 years ago
> They can purchase tickets to movie showings, plays, concerts or museum exhibits. And they can sign up for dance, painting or drawing classes.
Oh you mean they didn’t rush to the theaters, that also were only reopened a few weeks ago, with many closing again ?
And the pass has limitation on what can be bought, only part of it can be spent online, and content or production has to be french and approved by the gov., which really reduces the options.
All in all this is to me a weird take on the situation.
0xTJ|4 years ago
Sure, broadening their culture horizons would be good, if it was easy to enforce spending it on something you don't currently embrace.
I wished, and still wish, I had money that I could justify spending to buy comic books and getting into that.
I'm really not a fan of that sensationalist headline, trying to drive up outrage on both sides, ven though it doesn't say whether buying comic books is good or bad in the headline. The article even gives examples of how it can be beneficial, like teenagers buying from comics local shops instead of going online, or buying records locally, but ignores the fact that there's a pandemic that makes it hard to enjoy certain forms of entertainment that are pushed by this program. Overall, I don't think this is great and honest journalism, even if the content itself is interesting.
mimixco|4 years ago
In the US, comics are considered by the masses to be the bane of pubescent boys or puerile adults obsessed with superheros and cosplay.
In France, graphic books (they're not all novels) are an elevated and widely-used cultural resource. They're found in educated bookstores, museum shops, libraries, and basically everywhere. And you know what? They're terrific!
France (and Belgium) have access to wonderful historical series on every period you can name. Tons of biographies of famous, real people. And beautiful, illustrated tomes which they can use to spark their imagination and learning.
It would be more accurate to say that Americans aren't spending money on graphically illustrated books because that's not an accepted part of our culture here, rather than to try to slam the French for something cool that works well for them.
See also: Scott's McCloud's Reinventing Comics [0] and BDfugue [1], a terrific online store for bandes dessinées.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinventing_Comics
[1] https://www.bdfugue.com/
derefr|4 years ago
(Though, also, it's clickbait. They want to shock people into reading the article by asking an implicit question with an evocative contrast: highlighting the discrepancy of mood between a term usually used to refer to high-brow concepts — "Culture" — and a term usually applied to low-brow media — "Comic Books". The body of the article, though investigating a similar tension, doesn't carry that same derogatory editorial thrust.)
mytailorisrich|4 years ago
Whatever cultural products people enjoy, it seems reasonable to expect that they would simply consume more of them if they had more money... Especially considering that the vast majority already has the purchasing power to consume whatever they want.
echelon|4 years ago
Can we start to use the vast number of cultural experiments we've conducted to infer which will succeed in producing the desired outcomes? Can we start trying new experiments?
I'd like to see us give cash to students that do well in school or participate in sports, clubs, music, etc. (If the worry is that this primarily rewards students whose parents are wealthy, I'm not so sure. Wealthy kids might not be satisfied by the rewards.)
swalls|4 years ago
touisteur|4 years ago
rchaud|4 years ago
markus_zhang|4 years ago
> (Sir Humphrey to Bernard)..subsidy..Is for art, for culture. It is not to be given to what the people want. It is for what the people don't want but ought to have! If they want something they'll pay for it themselves! No, we subsidies education, enlightenment, spiritual uplift. Not the vulgar pastimes of ordinary people.
rchaud|4 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNw0P5ZMbA
zrobotics|4 years ago
musicale|4 years ago
Getting more kids into physical book and record stores seems like a nice effect as well. Not everything needs to be purchased from Amazon or streamed on Spotify.
I'd also expect to see more live events as the pandemic (hopefully) wanes.
> And while the Culture Pass can be spent on video games, the game’s publisher must be French, and the game must not feature violence — conditions so restrictive that most popular titles are unavailable.
Ah, I was wondering why games weren't higher on the list.
jjgreen|4 years ago
lefrenchy|4 years ago
Some good old elitism from NYT. Worth mentioning that France has reduced prices to cultural expos for students, and there are plenty that are free! They can enjoy comic books AND art expos.
AndyMcConachie|4 years ago
Hamuko|4 years ago
walterbell|4 years ago
vkou|4 years ago
Cui bono?
Governments also have far more effective, simpler-to-implement instruments for stopping the operation of undesirable businesses. Tariffs, taxes, and bans.
rchaud|4 years ago
forinti|4 years ago
Let the kids read what they want. If they are reading, it's a win!
jacquesm|4 years ago
rgoulter|4 years ago
Is France's teenage population around 4-5 million?
GuB-42|4 years ago
thiht|4 years ago
diogenescynic|4 years ago
aaomidi|4 years ago
underseacables|4 years ago
Hypergraphe|4 years ago
mhh__|4 years ago