Once upon a time there was town called Statisticsville with a population of 1000 people. Every year around 8 people die. Sometimes 7, sometimes 9. One year, a new infectious disease came along and killed 2 additional people (both elderly). The population nearly had a civil war over these additional 2 deaths because some people thought the additional 2 deaths could have been prevented with better enforced public health practices while the other group thought it wasn't worth the social/economic costs. Looking forward to the next year, the people were still divided into two groups - those who were worried that the infectious disease might kill another person, and those that didn't really care much. The discord and contention between the groups escalated with each side increasingly rigid and unable to empathize with the other side until violence broke out and Statisticsville descended into anarchy.
That sounds odd way for people to behave. Perhaps there is something else going on in Statisticsville that wasn't mentioned?
Maybe, even though only 2 people died, another 8 got admitted to hospital with a serious life threatening disease. Of the 6 that were discharged, 2 suffered continuous relapses requiring multiple readmissions and major life style changes (like stopping work).
Or perhaps there was something significant about the extra 2 that died. Maybe, rather being in retirement, they were in their 30's, shouldering the peak of adult responsibilities like child raising?
I can. I got my shots as soon as I could, but I know lots of people that will never do it. Yesterday I was eating at a ramen shop - traffic was slow, so I got to listen to the bulletproof young man waiting tables talk to his friend at length about how he'd never get the shot, just like the flu, I'm not an anti-vaxxer - but, I don't wear tinfoil hats - but.
The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently convincing enough to them.
A relative of mine is buying into the vaccine conspiracies along with shitting on depression and other mental problems, and honestly, I wish they'd get a serious case of Covid or something.
These people don't learn until someone they know actually fucking dies.
Pretty odd article to see from fellow doctor and someone who gets angry at stuff like this probably should find another career. Is she angry at the patients who abused their bodies all their lives, resulting in their inpatient stay? All the heart failure patients who simply refuse to follow simple instructions that would keep them out of the hospital? I just looked, 42% of the patients on our inpatient floor with COVID-19 were vaccinated (this is a small hospital, so I'm not making any conclusion based on that).
I wanted to get vaccinated, registered my "interest" to get vaccinated months ago, then waited for the invitation to book an appointment, booked my first, then second appointment.
This process took months, amid shortages in Pfizer, waiting times of more than an hour on the phone to book appointments, their online booking system simply not working during high demand.
What I'm saying is, as a person highly motivated to get vaccinated, it wasn't easy.
Our gov and officials tell us how lazy we are to not be vaccinated, but I can understand why a lot of people aren't. In some cases it is made too hard to jump through all the hoops.
I really don't understand the anti-vaxxers. I mean, OK, when the vaccine first came out, I could understand a small measure of hesitancy. Hell, I even said something to the effect of "I don't necessarily want to be first in line."
But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to zero. And as far as "Well, we don't know the long-term effects" arguments go... OK, superficially that sounds reasonable. But there isn't, to the best of my knowledge, even a good theoretical explanation of how/why to expect any long-term effects. The vaccine itself is eliminated from your system in a few days if I understand correctly, leaving behind only anti-bodies manufactured by your body.
So yeah, I guess it's possible, in principle, that 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or whatever, people that took the vaccine could start keeling over spontaneously, or growing third eyeballs in the center of their foreheads or something. But the odds of that happening seem way, way, way beyond even "ludicrously low". To my way of thinking, it "rounds to impossible". So I'd like to know why these folks think differently and apparently expect something bad to happen if they take the vaccine.
I think “being statistically unlikely of a negative outcome” is the wrong argument though. That argument can be made regarding COVID-19 as well as the vaccines, particularly among the largest age demographic currently expressing vaccine hesitation. They are statistically unlikely to die from Covid too.
The best thing to do at least in the US is for the FDA to fully approve the vaccine, both for adults and for children. I suspect you will always have 10-15% that are vaccine holdouts no matter what, but until there is full FDA approval, you will never ever reach 70-75%.
These vaccines aren’t even a year old. If there were long term side effects, do you think they would show up in a few months? Have we even had enough time to see if people are having trouble getting pregnant? Let alone get vaccinated and then gestate a child to term.
Sure, act like the vaccines have been around forever. You are revealing your age. Some of us have seen this show before in 2009 and in the 1970s. Even with the best intentions, scientists make mistakes.
I just visited my grandmother's sister's family in the villages. They're not vaccinated at all, because they think that the vaccine is more dangerous than the Delta variant.
I was much more sad than angry, especially not at them: the political system confused people too much. I think we should all do what we can for unvaccinated people, but at this time it's all their personal responsability even if the misinformation was created on purpuse.
Hard to read this it’s just way too editorialized by the author. We get it you’re mad about the pandemic and how it’s handled. Supposedly being a doctor gives you more credibility but only on vaccinations not on public health policy.
Anyway im sick of reading articles with no other point than to make you mad. But its HP what can you expect.
Edit: not really going to argue with anyone my point stands. Just another stupid piece made to make people mad. Your comments further reinforce this. Be mad but it doesn’t help.
You shouldn't read editorials then, they're usually editorialized.
> Supposedly being a doctor gives you more credibility but only on vaccinations
We can drop the "supposedly" and vaccinations are what's being discussed.
The point is that an expert has watched people die because of irrational behavior on the part of anti-vaxxers. Not "to make you mad." You should try reading the article!
Why shouldn't people be mad about this? The point is that medical professionals are horrified and frustrated, and this article is helping us understand why.
Agreed. This kind of "journalism" is sheer garbage, whether it's supporting your viewpoint or not, and probably poses a more serious risk to the country than Covid ever will.
IMO Most of the "unvaccinated" are that way because they've already had covid and would rather be part of the control group for this large experiment. I just don't buy articles like this for the reason you stated.
Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it.
Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for your own wellbeing.
Vaccinated people do not need to wear masks to protect unvaccinated people at this point in time.
It's time to stop catering policy towards a small percentage of the population that has decided for whatever reason to not get vaccinated. These people largely understand what they are doing - leave them alone and get on with life!
A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU beds, exhaust doctors, expend billions in care, etc. The cost of the unvaccinated isn't borne just by them - its paid by all of us when they show up in the hospital needing expensive care, and/or we are forced to shutdown our economy out of concern over overfilled ICUs. That makes a discussion of mandatory vaccination completely reasonable, and not simply rhetorical.
We should have tied CARES Act payments to vaccination... I'm guessing a $500 check would have persuaded almost everybody to get the shot. In the end the ROI of herd immunity might have been worth it?
A gentle reminder that no children under 12 have been vaccinated yet, and so the behavior of unvaccinated adults affects more people than you're talking about here.
Adding to the thoughts before, letting the virus spread and mutate among the unvaccinated to create a new variant sounds like a reset on the progress we've made. With the Delta we got lucky, our vaccines still largely work. I'm not sure how long the luck will hold on with more variants.
I'm all for leaving people alone to their own decisions. But with this, their decisions greatly affect me and society at large.
You may want to have av word with my wife who is under strong immunodepressants and did not react to the vaccine. Three times. Two kind of vaccines.
The healthy unvaccinated dickheads idiots, because they are idiots but do not realize it, should simply be forced to get a vaccine or be put aside from society.
And because they are idiots and won't understand it anyway, do not spend to much resources trying to explain that.
I can't get antidepressants partly because of these people. And partly because doctors think they know better than everyone else.
And also because they simply outright refuse to see me or they got too many patients.
Just let me sign a waiver so I can get my medication freely, I don't need any other healthcare (no point in fixing a broken leg when you're dead, right?)
Is it? Without cause or basis? If you had some of that, an expert might be able to answer your concerns. Comments like "it might give you cancer" only serve to Stoke more baseless fear.
And also remember that list of unknown adverse interactions is as long when contacting covid. Only that has a much higher rate of observed illness and death.
Restrictions have been eased. There are indications that the virus has mutated into a more threatening form while keeping it’s high transmissibility. Louisiana appears to be running out of beds.
Los Angeles county, where the doctor who wrote the piece is based, currently is at 70% capacity for ICU. Which is not as bad as the last peak, when it was 93%, but is not great, and it's trending upward.
At this point, we need to recognize the genie isn’t going back in the bottle. COVID 19 isn’t going away by Easter or when warm weather arrives, or when…
Vaccinate yourself, get a booster when they come out, and stop waiting for herd immunity. It will be here right after herd immunity for the cold and flu set in.
[+] [-] cblackthornekc|4 years ago|reply
https://www.vaccines.gov/
[+] [-] stmfreak|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] umvi|4 years ago|reply
The End
[+] [-] rstuart4133|4 years ago|reply
Maybe, even though only 2 people died, another 8 got admitted to hospital with a serious life threatening disease. Of the 6 that were discharged, 2 suffered continuous relapses requiring multiple readmissions and major life style changes (like stopping work).
Or perhaps there was something significant about the extra 2 that died. Maybe, rather being in retirement, they were in their 30's, shouldering the peak of adult responsibilities like child raising?
[+] [-] poslathian|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RyJones|4 years ago|reply
The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently convincing enough to them.
[+] [-] tobr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bserge|4 years ago|reply
These people don't learn until someone they know actually fucking dies.
[+] [-] ksec|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrismcb|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simplyunjustly|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mickotron|4 years ago|reply
I wanted to get vaccinated, registered my "interest" to get vaccinated months ago, then waited for the invitation to book an appointment, booked my first, then second appointment.
This process took months, amid shortages in Pfizer, waiting times of more than an hour on the phone to book appointments, their online booking system simply not working during high demand.
What I'm saying is, as a person highly motivated to get vaccinated, it wasn't easy.
Our gov and officials tell us how lazy we are to not be vaccinated, but I can understand why a lot of people aren't. In some cases it is made too hard to jump through all the hoops.
[+] [-] nprateem|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codersteve|4 years ago|reply
>>However, McCann said her brother had asthma in an earlier tweet on 3 July.
[+] [-] yread|4 years ago|reply
intubation kills patients
they wish for chest compressions without intubation in the event of a respiratory arrest (what?)
they refuse to wear “muzzles” when grocery shopping
they didn’t get vaccinated because they “just didn’t get around to it”
[+] [-] mindcrime|4 years ago|reply
But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to zero. And as far as "Well, we don't know the long-term effects" arguments go... OK, superficially that sounds reasonable. But there isn't, to the best of my knowledge, even a good theoretical explanation of how/why to expect any long-term effects. The vaccine itself is eliminated from your system in a few days if I understand correctly, leaving behind only anti-bodies manufactured by your body.
So yeah, I guess it's possible, in principle, that 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or whatever, people that took the vaccine could start keeling over spontaneously, or growing third eyeballs in the center of their foreheads or something. But the odds of that happening seem way, way, way beyond even "ludicrously low". To my way of thinking, it "rounds to impossible". So I'd like to know why these folks think differently and apparently expect something bad to happen if they take the vaccine.
[+] [-] kcplate|4 years ago|reply
The best thing to do at least in the US is for the FDA to fully approve the vaccine, both for adults and for children. I suspect you will always have 10-15% that are vaccine holdouts no matter what, but until there is full FDA approval, you will never ever reach 70-75%.
[+] [-] stmfreak|4 years ago|reply
Sure, act like the vaccines have been around forever. You are revealing your age. Some of us have seen this show before in 2009 and in the 1970s. Even with the best intentions, scientists make mistakes.
[+] [-] codyswann|4 years ago|reply
Which means, I guess they'll get the shot in 50 years?
[+] [-] senectus1|4 years ago|reply
my nephew and his mother are being very hesitant because "the vaccine is so new and untested"...
They don't have any issue getting the flu vaccine every year...
I just don't understand their mindset.
[+] [-] xiphias2|4 years ago|reply
I was much more sad than angry, especially not at them: the political system confused people too much. I think we should all do what we can for unvaccinated people, but at this time it's all their personal responsability even if the misinformation was created on purpuse.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bogota|4 years ago|reply
Anyway im sick of reading articles with no other point than to make you mad. But its HP what can you expect.
Edit: not really going to argue with anyone my point stands. Just another stupid piece made to make people mad. Your comments further reinforce this. Be mad but it doesn’t help.
[+] [-] iceyyou|4 years ago|reply
> Supposedly being a doctor gives you more credibility but only on vaccinations
We can drop the "supposedly" and vaccinations are what's being discussed.
The point is that an expert has watched people die because of irrational behavior on the part of anti-vaxxers. Not "to make you mad." You should try reading the article!
[+] [-] smt88|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ergot_vacation|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nprateem|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ghthor|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Alupis|4 years ago|reply
Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for your own wellbeing.
Vaccinated people do not need to wear masks to protect unvaccinated people at this point in time.
It's time to stop catering policy towards a small percentage of the population that has decided for whatever reason to not get vaccinated. These people largely understand what they are doing - leave them alone and get on with life!
[+] [-] csw-001|4 years ago|reply
We should have tied CARES Act payments to vaccination... I'm guessing a $500 check would have persuaded almost everybody to get the shot. In the end the ROI of herd immunity might have been worth it?
[+] [-] onychomys|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] revalo|4 years ago|reply
I'm all for leaving people alone to their own decisions. But with this, their decisions greatly affect me and society at large.
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|4 years ago|reply
The healthy unvaccinated dickheads idiots, because they are idiots but do not realize it, should simply be forced to get a vaccine or be put aside from society.
And because they are idiots and won't understand it anyway, do not spend to much resources trying to explain that.
[+] [-] sollewitt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whoaisme|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bserge|4 years ago|reply
And also because they simply outright refuse to see me or they got too many patients.
Just let me sign a waiver so I can get my medication freely, I don't need any other healthcare (no point in fixing a broken leg when you're dead, right?)
[+] [-] cs2733|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] thepangolino|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ShG401|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] oliwarner|4 years ago|reply
Is it? Without cause or basis? If you had some of that, an expert might be able to answer your concerns. Comments like "it might give you cancer" only serve to Stoke more baseless fear.
And also remember that list of unknown adverse interactions is as long when contacting covid. Only that has a much higher rate of observed illness and death.
[+] [-] mcguire|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eplanit|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] onychomys|4 years ago|reply
[0] https://www.kait8.com/2021/07/29/surge-covid-19-cases-arkans...
[1] https://www.kut.org/covid-19/2021-07-30/intensive-care-capac...
[2] https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2021/07/20/central-f...
[+] [-] standardUser|4 years ago|reply
Florida hospitals postpone elective surgeries as another record set for COVID-19 daily admissions https://www.pressherald.com/2021/08/04/florida-hospitals-pos...
Louisiana Doctors Cancel Brain Aneurysm Surgeries to Deal With Influx of COVID Patients https://www.newsweek.com/louisiana-doctors-cancel-brain-aneu...
COVID cases, other factors push Las Vegas hospitals to limit https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/covid-ca...
Covid-19 Patients Overwhelm Busy Hospitals as Delta Variant Spreads https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-patients-overwhelm-bus...
[+] [-] syops|4 years ago|reply
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/565793-louisiana-ho...
[+] [-] MrLeap|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bydo|4 years ago|reply
https://covidactnow.org/us/california-ca/county/los_angeles_...
[+] [-] BrianOnHN|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tiahura|4 years ago|reply
Vaccinate yourself, get a booster when they come out, and stop waiting for herd immunity. It will be here right after herd immunity for the cold and flu set in.