One other thing people may not realize. If you use your credit card at a merchant online or in person and you associate any information such as a telephone number or email with that card. Any time you use that card, online or off, to make a purchase with that merchant those transactions can be tied together regardless of whether you provide your email/phone on future transactions. Large vendors such as walmart etc now associate that phone/email and card(s) with your facial recognition information. The second you walk into the store based on your face they can pull up your entire purchase history and contact. They are now crunching that data to improve retail layouts, marketing pitches, etc and there is growing market of selling aggregates of that data across merchants.
Then why does it take the sales person at Macy's 15 minutes to look up my order before giving up and just giving me a refund for a poorly fitting sweater I brought back?
> The second you walk into the store based on your face they can pull up your entire purchase history and contact. They are now crunching that data to improve retail layouts, marketing pitches, etc and there is growing market of selling aggregates of that data across merchants.
Super interesting, is there public information about this? Are you are saying they are using customer identity for sample weighting to debias and improve the precision of experiments?
This to me is part of a general trend wherein only those with the awareness and resources required will have privacy.
For example, if you do have the funds, send a private shopper. But an even more direct example is skipping the discounts associated with club cards for privacy reasons.
This will further entrench the class divide between the wealthy and the rest of us.
The October before covid me and Mrs. Asciimov went on a cruse with Royal Caribbean. We got dropped off at the port, put our luggage in the loading area, and proceeded to walk inside, all without talking to anyone.
Not 30 seconds after walking into the Port Building, a RCL rep walked up and greeted me and the mrs by first name. Said please walk this way, I have you all checked in, you just need to go through the returning voyagers boarding line. (metal detector/contraband check)
To be honest it was both creepy to have them just know who I was, and kinda awesome to get to skip the regular check in step. I asked the lady how she knew who we were, she told us that between the cameras in the port and the photos we submitted during the cruise purchase they knew who we where, and the information pops up on their tablet when they are assigned the next customer.
Kroger has felt especially intrusive for a couple of decades; it's almost as though they're going out of their way to be manipulative and creepy, right from the store layout where Pepsi is $87.00 at your feet and Coke is $0.75 at eye level, down to the personalized coupons they send you in the mail. But the big stores that don't have loyalty cards are still slurping up data; they just get it from your credit card and their cameras. I don't know what the answer is, beyond just trying to frequent farmers' markets.
I hate the idea of facial recognition tech being used like this but I really don’t mind loyalty cards/using credit cards to track spending as long as the data is only used by the stores themselves (and not also sold wholesale to the highest bidders, which I bet it is).
I think it’s fair for them to gather analytics on spending habits and use it to make decisions on how to stock their store, run promotions, etc. Same for personalized coupons. Feels weird, but is pretty harmless, and I’m pretty sure they’re just trying to get you to try new things (like for me, beyond meat) so you start regularly purchasing it.
I wonder if there's a Winco or local equivalent for you? They don't accept credit cards, only debit cards, checks, and cash. No loyalty programs. And you have to bag your own groceries. I switched from using a debit card to cash just because I like the idea that I'm not being tracked at all.
WinCo Foods, Inc. is a privately held, majority employee-owned[5][6][7] American supermarket chain based in Boise, Idaho, with retail stores in Arizona, California, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas,[8] Utah, and Washington. It was founded in 1967 as a no-frills warehouse-style store with low prices.
I know this isn’t a privilege available to everyone, but I just shop at a locally owned city grocery that isn’t part of a national conglomerate. I don’t think Good Life Grocery and Rainbow are scanning my face…or maybe I’m one of the oblivious shoppers from the article?
I don't really understand the loyalty card thing anyways.
When I lived in the midwest, I'd just get a card from Kroger but never fill out the paperwork. I thought I was being clever, but as pointed out, they still track you by your payment method. With that being the case, why do loyalty cards still exist? For cash buyers?
Walmart makes this rather obvious. I was walking down a medicine aisle the other day, and I looked up and saw my face on a screen with green lines outlining it.
I started to type "That's not facial recognition", then deleted it...
The green box that you're describing is recognizing that _A_ face is in view of the camera. This is often used for properly adjusting focus, exposure, etc... I suppose you could call it "facial recognition", because that's exactly what it's doing. But it's fairly benign and passive. This technology exists in my DSLR cameras that have no network connection and do not save any facial data anywhere in the image.
But then there is facial recognition that knows who you are, it's connected to a network, and it logs where you go - and these back-end systems correlate this data with other data that's been collected about you. Systems that know who you are are what is generally meant when discussing "facial recognition".
Let's leverage the current mask trend, and make masks that are low-rez displays, and project a loop of shifting blurry different generated facial features, like the scramble suits in scanner darkly :)
Whoever builds a wearable “sparkler” that is able to disrupt digital cameras or the underlying tech in a way that doesn’t require the user to wear a large scarf or similar is going to really usher in an interesting part of history.
Your face is just one of a myriad of things that can be recognized and tracked.
There are so many facets of the human body which can all be combined. Can't see your face? Who cares- I can see how far apart your eyes are, how tall you are, your shoulder-to-elbow length, your walking speed, and your approximate weight. You're dogman144, and you spend an average of $26.34 per visit.
AFAIK those only work because cheap cameras lack IR filters, for both cost-cutting and night-vision reasons. More advanced cameras have IR filters, rendering such devices useless.
You can obscure your face from many cameras with bright IR leds, but then you become "that one guy who's face shows up on camera as a bright washed out blur." It's like trying to hide an airplane from radars by broadcasting megawatts of broadband noise; possible but not particularly useful.
Seems weird this wouldn't really be discussed, but this also means that aggressively publicizing this simple fact, and lobbying for very obvious consent & information obligations, might be enough to reign in these practices.
60% seems high to me. This was the first that I've heard of it being used. I'm not surprised to learn of it, but I hadn't really thought about it before seeing the headline.
What I actually found most surprising in this article was that a plurality don't seem to mind:
> When it came to whether or not respondents supported the use of facial recognition by retailers, 42 percent said they didn't mind it while 38 percent said they were against its use in stores.
(I assume the remaining 20% were "unsure" or similar? The article doesn't say.)
There are requirements for the CCTV notices already.. you probably haven't noticed, because they're tiny and out of the way. Plus a lot of establishments use non-committal language like "may be recorded by CCTV" (almost as if every retailer added the signs but only some of them added the tech).
It would be great if this was posted, boldly, clearly. As long as there are data protection limits (only 3 month's history can be maintained, data is unrecoverably disposed of) and accommodations for those who do not consent. (If every grocery store adopts the tech, how will you buy groceries if you do not accept these practices?)
This may be a stupid idea and it is outside my expertise (IANAL): Would legally classifying identity information as intellectual property help? I don't know the case law around identity as private property but I would imagine requiring someone to enter into a legally binding contract just to enter a store would kill efforts like these pretty fast.
What annoys me the most is how sad tech allocation is. Courtrooms are moving papers like it's 1869 but walmart needs to invoke alien tech to see my emotions when browsing deals.
40% isn’t really “almost half,” unless you squint and turn your head sideways.
I’m a little suspicious of surveys that have only two choices that add up to 100%.
That said, I’m not happy with the way that facial recognition is being deployed, and a lot of HN readers are the ones that are crafting the tools.
When a blacksmith makes a sword, they know what it’s for. Things get fuzzier, after that.
I watched a (terrible) movie, a while ago, called Monsters of Man, and it featured this team of geeks that developed AI-powered killbots, and were forced to get “up close and personal” with their work.
[+] [-] hamburgerwah|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] legerdemain|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fshbbdssbbgdd|4 years ago|reply
Super interesting, is there public information about this? Are you are saying they are using customer identity for sample weighting to debias and improve the precision of experiments?
[+] [-] dellcybpwr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reedjosh|4 years ago|reply
For example, if you do have the funds, send a private shopper. But an even more direct example is skipping the discounts associated with club cards for privacy reasons.
This will further entrench the class divide between the wealthy and the rest of us.
[+] [-] asciimov|4 years ago|reply
Not 30 seconds after walking into the Port Building, a RCL rep walked up and greeted me and the mrs by first name. Said please walk this way, I have you all checked in, you just need to go through the returning voyagers boarding line. (metal detector/contraband check)
To be honest it was both creepy to have them just know who I was, and kinda awesome to get to skip the regular check in step. I asked the lady how she knew who we were, she told us that between the cameras in the port and the photos we submitted during the cruise purchase they knew who we where, and the information pops up on their tablet when they are assigned the next customer.
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JohnFen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 5faulker|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mbg721|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] opportune|4 years ago|reply
I think it’s fair for them to gather analytics on spending habits and use it to make decisions on how to stock their store, run promotions, etc. Same for personalized coupons. Feels weird, but is pretty harmless, and I’m pretty sure they’re just trying to get you to try new things (like for me, beyond meat) so you start regularly purchasing it.
[+] [-] jdeibele|4 years ago|reply
WinCo Foods, Inc. is a privately held, majority employee-owned[5][6][7] American supermarket chain based in Boise, Idaho, with retail stores in Arizona, California, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas,[8] Utah, and Washington. It was founded in 1967 as a no-frills warehouse-style store with low prices.
[+] [-] after_care|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mustacheemperor|4 years ago|reply
I know this isn’t a privilege available to everyone, but I just shop at a locally owned city grocery that isn’t part of a national conglomerate. I don’t think Good Life Grocery and Rainbow are scanning my face…or maybe I’m one of the oblivious shoppers from the article?
[+] [-] JohnFen|4 years ago|reply
True. If you're paying with a card, you might as well use the loyalty program as well.
And be sure to put your cellphone in airplane mode before you get to the store.
[+] [-] silisili|4 years ago|reply
When I lived in the midwest, I'd just get a card from Kroger but never fill out the paperwork. I thought I was being clever, but as pointed out, they still track you by your payment method. With that being the case, why do loyalty cards still exist? For cash buyers?
[+] [-] jimmaswell|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _wldu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SkyPuncher|4 years ago|reply
* Gates at the main entrances
* Cameras everywhere
* "Security" walking through the store in clearly marked uniforms
* Self checkouts with UX that clearly communicates a lack of trust.
[+] [-] daveslash|4 years ago|reply
The green box that you're describing is recognizing that _A_ face is in view of the camera. This is often used for properly adjusting focus, exposure, etc... I suppose you could call it "facial recognition", because that's exactly what it's doing. But it's fairly benign and passive. This technology exists in my DSLR cameras that have no network connection and do not save any facial data anywhere in the image.
But then there is facial recognition that knows who you are, it's connected to a network, and it logs where you go - and these back-end systems correlate this data with other data that's been collected about you. Systems that know who you are are what is generally meant when discussing "facial recognition".
This article doesn't say.
[+] [-] Workaccount2|4 years ago|reply
You can steal no problem, but one day you'll be approached and asked to leave upon entering almost anywhere.
[+] [-] jacquesm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seriousquestion|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] splatcollision|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] advshirt|4 years ago|reply
Paper: https://mitibmwatsonailab.mit.edu/research/blog/adversarial-...
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dogman144|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mabbo|4 years ago|reply
There are so many facets of the human body which can all be combined. Can't see your face? Who cares- I can see how far apart your eyes are, how tall you are, your shoulder-to-elbow length, your walking speed, and your approximate weight. You're dogman144, and you spend an average of $26.34 per visit.
[+] [-] gruez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justaman|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barnesto|4 years ago|reply
https://www.reflectacles.com/
[+] [-] MichaelGroves|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] black_puppydog|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dhosek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wowfunhappy|4 years ago|reply
> When it came to whether or not respondents supported the use of facial recognition by retailers, 42 percent said they didn't mind it while 38 percent said they were against its use in stores.
(I assume the remaining 20% were "unsure" or similar? The article doesn't say.)
Not sure what to make of this...
[+] [-] meowster|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gnabgib|4 years ago|reply
It would be great if this was posted, boldly, clearly. As long as there are data protection limits (only 3 month's history can be maintained, data is unrecoverably disposed of) and accommodations for those who do not consent. (If every grocery store adopts the tech, how will you buy groceries if you do not accept these practices?)
[+] [-] modzu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scrps|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JohnFen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|4 years ago|reply
I’m a little suspicious of surveys that have only two choices that add up to 100%.
That said, I’m not happy with the way that facial recognition is being deployed, and a lot of HN readers are the ones that are crafting the tools.
When a blacksmith makes a sword, they know what it’s for. Things get fuzzier, after that.
I watched a (terrible) movie, a while ago, called Monsters of Man, and it featured this team of geeks that developed AI-powered killbots, and were forced to get “up close and personal” with their work.
Needless to say, things didn’t end well for them.
[+] [-] Meerax|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mgarfias|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commotionfever|4 years ago|reply