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California family dies under mysterious circumstances

112 points| pseudolus | 4 years ago |npr.org | reply

137 comments

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[+] ridgeguy|4 years ago|reply
Any chance they died because they walked into a carbon dioxide accumulation?

CO2 is heavier than air and can accumulate in natural hollows. I've read about game animals suffocating rapidly when they walk through CO2-filled hollows, but can't immediately find a link. Natural CO2 emission does kill trees [1].

[1] https://pubs.usgs.gov/dds/dds-81/Intro/MonitoringData/CO2/CO...

[+] pomian|4 years ago|reply
Very good proposition. This can happen next to old mines, waste rock piles especially. Not so much that the CO2 kills you, but it displaces the oxygen. You enter an oxygen deficient environment. Suffocation can happen almost instantly. Similar to confined spaces. However with weather changes, lets say a low pressure system moving in, the CO2 exhales from the surrounding porous rock. You starve for oxygen, almost immediately. And even the oxygen in your body gets sucked out. It has happened before, it took a long time for coroner's to figure out. Mine rescue personnel even get killed, thinking they can hold their breath. Have often wondered why this is isn't presented more to the public, so they can be warned. Avoid hollows, low spots, etc, especially in old mining country. (The reactions in the rock use up the oxygen pricing CO2 - But that's a longer discussion...)
[+] pomian|4 years ago|reply
Here is an article about 4 men that died next to a waste rock pile in BC, Canada, from lack of oxygen. Another problem is almost all health and safety sensors use oxygen as a baseline for testing, so in a lack of oxygen they do not work accurately. So even experts can get caught in such an extreme situation. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/lack-of-oxyg...
[+] nimbius|4 years ago|reply
Co2 probably not...there's a very pronounced physical reaction to an exposure. CO? Or other noble gasses, maybe
[+] carabiner|4 years ago|reply
I think this is most likely. There are areas around Mammoth with CO2 warning signs.
[+] smhinsey|4 years ago|reply
As someone who lives nearby part of the year, I really think this story has taken on a life of its own. It's true that there is some gross algae in the South Fork Merced but from all of the public info, they didn't even make it that far. If you look at where they started and where they were recovered, you'll see that in between is a fully exposed descent down a series of switchbacks. It was extremely hot that day. They probably died of heat exhaustion. It's unusual for it to get the dog too, but if they didn't have water for themselves, they probably didn't for the dog. It's not hard to imagine getting to the bottom and realizing you're in serious trouble.

This family closely mirrors mine, so I've followed the story closely, and it seems like they just made a grievous error in judgment in an area they weren't familiar with.

[+] autokad|4 years ago|reply
it seems highly unlikely the mother, father, and dog all died of heat exhaustion at the same time, unless the dog died/passed out and they were carrying it. Even then, I would have suspected the mother/daughter taking cover and the dad going ahead.
[+] truculent|4 years ago|reply
The article says that they were avid hikers. I’m not familiar with the area, but carrying plenty of water seems like a relatively fundamental bit of prep. Am I missing something?
[+] encoderer|4 years ago|reply
Wouldn’t it have been obvious that they had no water with them? Did I miss that detail somewhere?
[+] ransom1538|4 years ago|reply
Grew up in northern California. What is suspicious was the death of the dog. The dog can live 2-3 days without water - and most likely would have found some. (They smell water).
[+] hellbannedguy|4 years ago|reply
I am not familiar with that area, but when hiking, I try to map out natural springs.

You won't need them going in, but it's coming back. I once went through a gallon of water on a hot day, and that spring I found earlier saved me.

(I haven't been on a long hike since that day though.)

[+] robbrown451|4 years ago|reply
If it was an ascent rather than a descent that seems more likely, since they'd be exerting far more.

It just seems really weird for all three of them to die pretty much at the same time. (the baby of course could have died hours later of exposure)

I'm still betting on some kind of toxin.

Really tragic, they seemed like a really happy family.

[+] eplanit|4 years ago|reply
They seem too well-educated to not be aware of toxic algae (very common throughout northern CA), and would know to not drink the water -- and certainly not give it to the child. Dogs do often tragically die every summer from drinking from streams, though. Similarly, it's odd for a responsible couple with a child and dog to not know to bring water, etc.

Heat or alage aren't impossible, but it sure does seem odd.

[+] Zigurd|4 years ago|reply
Lightning can kill without obvious marks, and it can kill several people at once. Not uncommon on a mountain. Poisoning or dehydration would not have happened to a group all at once.
[+] BXLE_1-1-BitIs1|4 years ago|reply
Don't know about the weather at the time, but a lightning strike would be a possible explanation.
[+] sschueller|4 years ago|reply
Lightning leaves a mess and can be easily determined.
[+] chasd00|4 years ago|reply
i feel like the common denominator between all four would be consumption of water (edit: well and the hike itself). My first suspicion is some kind of poisoning.
[+] BXLE_1-1-BitIs1|4 years ago|reply
Canoeing and hiking away from habitation and livestock I regularly drink from lakes and streams without without worry or intestinal consequences so so far.

My doctor sister took a fright when I told her I make a point of bringing back water from glacial streams for mixing with single malts.

[+] diebir|4 years ago|reply
If they were backpacking, I'd say carbon monoxide from a stove most likely. Otherwise maybe only lightning makes some sense. All this "toxic gasses" seems way too unlikely.
[+] bitxbitxbitcoin|4 years ago|reply
Is the hypothesis that there was toxic algae present in the water that the family presumably only filtered before drinking, not boiled?
[+] vanattab|4 years ago|reply
I might be wrong but I don't think boiling would work for chemical toxins ether. Unless it's life and death you should avoid collecting drinking water from stagnant sources always look for flowing water. If you have to collect water try and collect it from deep bellow the surface and far from the bottom.
[+] legohead|4 years ago|reply
If they are "avid hikers" like the article suggests, they would have brought water. Also doesn't explain why the baby died (don't think you'd give a 1 year old stream water).
[+] aaron695|4 years ago|reply

[deleted]

[+] mazlix|4 years ago|reply
How would you explain the suicide? What method and how was the dog also killed?

There are valid reasons suicide isn’t suspected here.

[+] autokad|4 years ago|reply
> "Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you shouldn't say it."

I don't think there is any value in saying it's a suicide without any evidence.

>"Suicides happen all the time."

Granted Suicided are more common in covid, they are still rare events.

[+] spoonjim|4 years ago|reply
How would you do it? How would you kill a baby, a dog, an adult, and yourself in the woods while leaving no physical traces of those means? It doesn’t add up.
[+] ransom1538|4 years ago|reply
Suicide involving guns? Drowning with bricks? Suicide is not easy - curious how you think they commited suicide. Suicide of a whole family is complicated. "Under Mysterious Circumstances" - means to me the investigators are: wtf.
[+] NelsonMinar|4 years ago|reply
Ah, Hacker News. Where someone asserts something emotionally distressing with bold authority and absolutely no evidence or knowledge.

(If you are contemplating suicide please take a look at https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ )

[+] staunch|4 years ago|reply

[deleted]

[+] robbrown451|4 years ago|reply
They didn't "kill" their child. This is a freak incident.

If they just packed up their child in their car and drove on the freeway, and they all died due to someone slamming into them at high speed, it wouldn't even be national news.

[+] InitialLastName|4 years ago|reply
People die doing all kinds of things that are absolutely worth doing. If we take too many cautionary tales, we end up swaddled in blankets on our couches for the rest of our lives (and then die early of our sedentary lifestyles, all the while hating the world we see on our TV).

Yes, they took a knowable risk (so does anyone who drives with their child). No, we don't know what killed them. We shouldn't let that prevent people from exposing their children to the outdoors, to places where mommy and daddy aren't constantly getting text messages, and from learning by exposure at a young age how to responsibly handle decisions under pressure.

[+] lamontcg|4 years ago|reply
i suppose i shouldn't be, but i'm honestly surprised that anyone could offer this as a serious opinion.
[+] spoonjim|4 years ago|reply
Humans do not need cell service to survive! This tragedy does not change that.
[+] postalrat|4 years ago|reply
How much do you know about this situation to judge it "excessively risking the life of a child".
[+] jimhefferon|4 years ago|reply
Please, everybody, speculating about this very, very sad event is not helping anyone. Only the authorities can work out what happened. Let it alone, please.
[+] nate_meurer|4 years ago|reply
Relax, it's just a discussion, one among countless other discussions around the world about all kinds of topics that may or may not be offensive to you.

Personally I find mysteries like this to be riveting. I'm sad about the family, anxious to find out what happened, and I'm interested in peoples' ideas here. Nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: I'm going to be really unhappy if this turns out to be poisoning by algae. That's a risk that I've never had to account for in life, and it's why I'm particularly interested in this incident.

[+] rufus_foreman|4 years ago|reply
I read the journal "Accidents in North American Mountaineering". I'm not a mountaineer much, but most of it applies to hiking. I don't read it to speculate on anything. I read it to learn from other peoples' mistakes.

A family went hiking and ended up dead. They made a mistake. So if I go hiking again, how can I avoid that particular mistake?

[+] junon|4 years ago|reply
It's not hurting anyone. Let people discuss things. I'm learning a lot, personally, and I'm sure others are as well.
[+] sharadov|4 years ago|reply
So tragic and heartbreaking. I read that they were doing an overnight hike in a remote part of Yosemite called Devil's Gulch. With a 1 year old? I love the outdoors too, but why take that kind of risk with a child?
[+] slownews45|4 years ago|reply
Toxic gases from a mine? Is this a joke?

On a day trip you bring enough water and some crackers / snacks and you are fine. On long hikes you can do filtration on the way, but a day hike not too bad to put the 2L camleback bladder in the daypack, I usually do a hard nalgene on the side if I'm hiking with others (always seems to get used).

Seriously, if you don't like drinking stream water, bring water. They even sell a 3L camelback.

https://www.rei.com/product/108365/camelbak-crux-3l-reservoi...

If you don't like the weight (longer overnight trips) amazing options these days in terms of water purification (vs what we used to do with the filter pump / boiling).

At least for me for a day trip 3L (2 in pack, 1 in bottle) has worked fine.

Now toxins from water would be very interesting - so be interesting to see what comes back from that testing.

Do they know how hot it was? A big brimmed hat on everyone does wonders in the heat. I see folks out with no hat, almost no water fairly often - Ok if you can stop and call for help, not so great if you don't have cell service.