I bought one of Samsung's smart televisions a couple years ago. I think I paid $1500 for it. Anyway, it started showing me ads and the TV eventually became sluggish less than a month after owning it. Returned it as defective. Ever since that experience, I swore of all smart televisions and will never buy another Samsung television or smartphone again if I can help it.
"Why is everyone confused that smart TVs are popular?"
TBH, Im more confused by the parent comment. (Although this is a very typical type of HN comment, passive-aggressive denigration of anything "not popular".) These type of comments make me wonder why would anyone, other than the companies benefitting, care if some HN commenters do not love so-called smart TVs. This is not a mainstream audience. Moreover, I see no comments indicating "confusion" why surveillance TVs are popular. I see comments that indicate either (a) distaste for them, (b) desire for alternatives or (c) passive-aggressive denigration, like the parent; for example, something like "the market has spoken". WTF. Why would anyone read HN if all they want to read is a restatement of "popular" culture.
Only speaking for myself but I want to read about alternatives to popular choices that feed surveillance marketing as "business strategy".
Few people feel strongly that a chip running Linux makes a TV worse. What they object to is when the manufacturer controls the TV rather than the owner of the TV. Modern smart TVs override the users' desired by, for example, showing ads. It's even possible these chips will eventually be responsible for copyright verification.
This would be fixed if it was possible to modify the chip's software and easy to install alternate OS bulbs.
The software in the newer LG OLEDs is so good I haven't bothered hooking up any of my boxes to my new TVs. I'm sure in a few years the UI will start to feel sluggish and it will be time to plug something in, but for now its a great experience, far better than any smart TV I've used before.
> And it probably costs <$50 for the manufacturer to include whatever chip is running linux in the TV, its a no-brainer.
I would assume it costs negative dollars to include that chip in the TV, because the cost is likely more than offset by whatever the app vendors pay to have their app included, and whatever marketers pay for ad placement and telemetry.
I'd love to use a smart TV as designed (assuming half decent UX), but because I can't trust manufacturers to not push an update that starts showing me ads I instead never give them internet access and use a chromecast or my PS4 for smart functionality instead.
I do also prefer the incremental upgradeability you get by keeping display tech and software separate. I can avoid spending 4/5 digit $s on my big dumb screen for way longer when I can just upgrade a $50 dongle periodically (although it turns out google is way better at supporting old chromecasts than most smart TV manufacturers are at supporting software on old TVs).
There are almost no tv manufacturers offering consumer TVs without the ability to connect to the internet to collect metrics, display ads, and run “apps” like Netflix. I don’t doubt it’s because the upsell is profitable and regular consumers would choose the TV with smart features over a similarly priced TV without, but it’s also possible no one has decided to compete on the “our TV is $40 cheaper, comes with a rebate for a roku you were going to buy anyways, and also we can’t push ads to you through it”
My non-tech extended family members all use separate Roku and/or FireTV devices instead of the built-in TV functionality, because I've seen the devices. I don't know why, but they do.
It's Samsung hate, not smart tv hate (although there's that too).
(I have a smart tv but honestly I don't want it anymore. I'm creeped out by the whole idea of it, and I don't like how it's always updating, or complains with blinking lights when it's not on the internet. No ads though. For now. It's kinda hard to find a dumb TV but I may just go with either a large-ish computer monitor or a projector.)
We're not confused by their popularity. We understand perfectly why the average person would want technology that is perfectly converged and easy to use.
We're frustrated because our screens went from dumb panels that displayed signals to proprietary computing platforms with DRM, ads and a full surveillance capitalism suite complete with microphones and maybe even cameras, all of which do nothing but serve the business interests of corporate giants.
All that nice stuff that the average person wants? We want it as well. But we want it on our terms. I want to do things that will no doubt cost the manufacturer thousands of dollars: kill their ads, deny them any and all data, etc. The TV should obey.
There is also spyware running on them. They literally spy on what you're watching and send the info home, and the data gets sold to market to you. No thanks.
Edit.
They also connect to unprotected wifi networks to send data without your permission.
Smart TVs is one of those recurring HN topics where it’s clear that people made up their minds years ago, likely from a single bad experience. Now they can’t imagine that any progress has been made since then. There’s not much reason to buy a new TV these days if your old one still works (with an external TV box)
You can still find terrible smart TVs out there, of course, but the newer models from top tier vendors like LG are actually quite good.
I think it’s going to take many years before the angry HN smart TV comments catch up to modern reality.
This technology was used for good this time, but there's nothing stopping it from being used for evil next time. The fact that Samsung is even capable of doing this means you don't have control over your Samsung TV even if you do own it legally.
How different is this from IMEI blacklisting of stolen phones? The secondary market for stolen phones has kind of disappeared despite cost of phones increasing.
EDIT: I think there is plenty of reason to want an open source tv os. They are terrible, ad ridden, bloated commodities. But this seems to be only valid use of DRM I can think of.
On your phone you might have unencrypted private content and information on the other hand on Smart TV you have entertainment apps and entertainment content no private information at least that is what I think most people have and do.
I don't anybody who stores private information on the Smart TV so when stolen Smart TVs start to circulate on the market no private information can be acquired or accessed(besides maybe your login credentials and a credit card) unlike with phones which store vast amount of your private content and information.
Idk how IMEI blacklisting works but if they can block at least your private phone number from the network that's good because rogue user can abuse your private phone number and cause havoc because your personal phone number is attached to your identity in numerous databases and records.
> How different is this from IMEI blacklisting of stolen phones?
It's not. People have been doing this for years now, it looks like the big brouhaha this time is that it's likely disabled when it connects to WiFi, not cellular or GPS info like how a phone might respond.
The larger question for society is do we even want smart everything? I rarely see this issue debated. Undoubtedly, software enables complex/rich functionality for what were hitherto relatively "dumb" devices, but the same flexibility can also lead to exploits, backdoors, bugs and place too much control in the hands of the manufacturers and many other nameless parties.
The most important aspect here is remote connectivity. Software without remote connectivity may be less correctable, but it is also resistant towards tampering from unwanted directions. With network connectivity the device basically becomes impossible to fully control. In fact, admin control shifts from you, the owner, to someone else on the other side of the planet, unless you want to take a hammer to it.
These issue need vigorous debate. 1. Do we even want every device to become "smart"?, and 2. should smart devices be designed with 24x7 network connectivity requirements?
Smart TVs are shit. Especially the modern ones. They got worse rather than better!
They are slow and laggy, even doing the most basic things like turning on or changing channel. It was faster the CRT that I used 20 years ago, and it had to warm up before displaying an image! But at least the audio started immediately...
They are also not usable. The UI is crappy and you don't find the most common settings, for example I had to search on the internet where to find the option to disable automatic turn off after 4 hours on an LG TV, the remotes are full of useless buttons (I don't want a huge Netflix button on a remote that if I press by mistake I will lose 10 seconds of the program I'm watching!).
Now I'm using a Sony TV, that I purchased 2 years ago only because it was the TV with less smart crap in it, it works pretty well, it does what a TV should do, let me watch TV channels, program guide, teletext (yes, I still use it), and nothing else (well in theory it has Netflix and other apps in it... but I never connected it to the internet and they don't get in the way). For all the other things, a simple media center PC does them better.
I guess this will just greatly inconvenience people who bought the TV from the bandits. But well, if this press release is well-distributed among the public, then they will know to avoid buying Samsung TVs from the backs of vans, and the thieves will avoid Samsung warehouses.
Alternatively maybe Samsung should just offer the innocent buyers a e.g. 5% discount to "legitimize" their TVs, so if they bought the TV from the back of the van for 50% off, they'll in effect need to pay 145% of the retail price. In effect the thieves would have become a new, strange, retail arm. It's like Uber, but for TV distribution!(TM)
More thoughts: the thieves should just cut off the Ethernet port (do they even have these?) and open the TV up and unplug the WiFi antenna. Sure it won't be an Internet TV anymore, but hey, at least their customers/suckers can still watch stuff.
What are the chances that someone would phish an admin user to the platform that blocks all the TV systems and block the all samsung TV devices. What are the chances that they could be snooping and monitoring what I am watching.
It would be nice to see some more transparency in these remote monitoring and management systems. The system setup is very similar to Teamviewer or kaseya where you accept them to manage your device when you accept the terms of service or user agreement.
I am not sure if it is just me, but It is making a little paranoid. In my opinion, this is not a good thing.
I'm probably just old and grumpy, but I ditched my newer smart TV's and moved to projectors. Last night I watched Altman's "The Long Goodbye" (1973) at around 120 inches on wall that has been skim coated and painted white. It looked like actual film with grainy night scenes and a muted color palette. It is a "dumb" projector and I love it. I love the experience of it.
I also love the fact that this little projector can go in a drawer when not in use. No black mirror dominating a room. It also means I don't really watch much until near dark which for me makes it a little more special. I actually have to wait for the optimum conditions to enjoy (the horror!)
I walked into Costco a few days ago and the new TV's are always near the entrance. Colors are saturated to cartoon levels, motion is 'smoothed' and HDR looks weird. It looks less and less like anything relating to human vision.
I'm clearly bucking the trend since I'm guessing all these TV's are hot sellers.
This is why i only buy "Dumb" TV's and connect a third-party "smart" device to them (Firestick, etc)
Smart device wants to do some crap like this, in the recycle bin it goes but the TV which cost far more is still good.
Many of these manufacturers also have a well documented history of not supporting anything they sold, in an attempt to push new products (buy an android phone and see how many updates it actually gets).
Again, far cheaper and easier to replace the smart device instead of the TV when this happens.
The problem is finding non smart TVs anymore. It used to be that WalMart would have a tv or two that were still just display devices but I haven't seen a non smart tv for sale in quite a while.
Honestly, I'm not a big one for regulation, but I think those TVs should have a large print notification somewhere that says they're spying on you - although people would probably accept the convenience tradeoff.
> The blocking will come into effect when the user of a stolen television connects to the internet, in order to operate the television
I purchased a Sony TV in 2019 after giving up on looking for 70" "dumb" television sets that would only connect to my PlayStation and act as a screen.
I decided that I would buy a smart tv but never connect it to the internet.
Every few days when I start my TV, I get an annoying "set up your Android TV" prompt that takes over my TV. I have to grab my remote and dismiss it to go back to my PlayStation.
If I happen to have a stolen television set, I would never know the difference. (My TV is from Sony, article is about Samsung TVs)
On the one hand this is understandable and sort of "evil genius", on the other hand, this will also affect grey market buyers who cannot produce a legitimate receipt. It's also problematic because this means they can alter your property at will.
I am quite ambivalent to this feature. On one hand, if someone steals your TV, you can deactivate it. But
now there is also a benefit to having a dumb TV. Imagine if you have too old of a model, so Samsung decides to remotely disable your TV.
Overall I'm not against such a thing because at the end of the day this makes theft less attractive and thus protects consumers.
However not like this: "Should a customer’s TV be incorrectly blocked, the functionality can be reinstated once proof of purchase and a valid TV license is shared to [email protected] [...]".
That's flipping the burden of proof around. Clearly not the way to go about this.
Also of course things should work by default and not require you to go online.
They've all been reported stolen. That already satisfies the burden of proof in Samsung's view. What more proof do you want Samsung to have? They can't prove customers don't have a receipt. It's up to the potential legitimate customer to overcome Samsung's evidence.
Smart everything enables things to control your behavior, to spy and then to report on you. I haven't ditched my smartphone yet but am using it less often and hold onto a phone till it becomes utterly obsolete (Currently an IPhone SE, still good for me). A smart TV would never be on my buy list. First of all I haven't a TV since they weren't so smart, last TV I had was a CRT in the 2000s. I noticed the difference without one. When I quit TV it was because it was toxic and I presume it has gotten worse since. I do own a projector and fire it up occasionally to watch a movie with the family but it's not on on a daily basis.
forget smart TVs, I want somebody to just make a decent dumb TV. Same thing goes for cars, I feel like there is a huge market for "dumb" products. Manufacturers feel the need to keep adding features for some reason
EU for example has regulations that make mandatory for all new cars to come with tracking devices and logging of what you do with the car.
EDIT: just remembered the name of one of such things. It is "eCall", now mandatory on EU. It mandates all cars must have GPS, Galileo, microphone, logging, cellphone transmitter, and be able to detect a serious emergency happened and call the police automatically and provide them with all data needed.
Seemly removing that crap from the car is illegal too. (I don't live in EU right now so I didn't dove too deep in that subject).
I’ve wondered about the feasibility of jailbreaking Tizen. Ads aside, my 2019 HDR TV has a bug where HDR10+ content will drop to 1/2 brightness every 6 minutes to the second, until I open the menu. That will reset the 6 minute counter, but it never stops. It’s infuriating.
It affects the 2020 models too, but by the looks of a very long forum thread it seems to have been fixed with a software update. They have no interest in fixing the older models, but maybe some enterprising hacker would.
I want to say fuck Samsung and that my next TV will be LG, but LG have ads in the menus too. Judging by reviews, most high-end Sony panels cost more money but are missing features I value like VRR.
It’s really shitty, there is basically no amount of money you can spend to get both a high-end panel and a user experience that isn’t fucking awful.
I'm on the fence here, I sort of like the premise that looters don't get their booty. I do agree though I don't like the idea that a corporation can remotely disable a piece of hardware I bought.
They have the ability to, but that doesn't make it legal. Samsung has the ability to hire mercenaries to go to your home and forcibly take your TV, and that's beyond your control too. But both are illegal. You can never ensure that nobody will ever have the ability to do bad things to you, but as long as it's a rectifiable matter and you're protected by the law, we often have to rely on those legal protections.
Your social media $POST critical of $PARTY is incompatible with Samsung's
vision of community. We have therefore disabled your $PHONE, $WATCH, $TV,
$DISHWASHER, and $PC. Contact [email protected] or click here for
more information"
[+] [-] wait_a_minute|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arduinomancer|4 years ago|reply
Why is everyone so confused that smart TVs are popular?
Being able to just turn on your TV and open Netflix without messing around with inputs/other devices is a huge benefit for non-technological people.
And it probably costs <$50 for the manufacturer to include whatever chip is running linux in the TV, its a no-brainer.
[+] [-] 1vuio0pswjnm7|4 years ago|reply
TBH, Im more confused by the parent comment. (Although this is a very typical type of HN comment, passive-aggressive denigration of anything "not popular".) These type of comments make me wonder why would anyone, other than the companies benefitting, care if some HN commenters do not love so-called smart TVs. This is not a mainstream audience. Moreover, I see no comments indicating "confusion" why surveillance TVs are popular. I see comments that indicate either (a) distaste for them, (b) desire for alternatives or (c) passive-aggressive denigration, like the parent; for example, something like "the market has spoken". WTF. Why would anyone read HN if all they want to read is a restatement of "popular" culture.
Only speaking for myself but I want to read about alternatives to popular choices that feed surveillance marketing as "business strategy".
[+] [-] pessimizer|4 years ago|reply
Also the real reason that they're popular: there are no non-smart TVs available.
[+] [-] zucker42|4 years ago|reply
This would be fixed if it was possible to modify the chip's software and easy to install alternate OS bulbs.
[+] [-] nsxwolf|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elihu|4 years ago|reply
I would assume it costs negative dollars to include that chip in the TV, because the cost is likely more than offset by whatever the app vendors pay to have their app included, and whatever marketers pay for ad placement and telemetry.
[+] [-] p1necone|4 years ago|reply
I do also prefer the incremental upgradeability you get by keeping display tech and software separate. I can avoid spending 4/5 digit $s on my big dumb screen for way longer when I can just upgrade a $50 dongle periodically (although it turns out google is way better at supporting old chromecasts than most smart TV manufacturers are at supporting software on old TVs).
[+] [-] mattnewton|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RKearney|4 years ago|reply
Because almost all of them use internet connectivity to show you ads on home screens.
[+] [-] tyingq|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] javajosh|4 years ago|reply
(I have a smart tv but honestly I don't want it anymore. I'm creeped out by the whole idea of it, and I don't like how it's always updating, or complains with blinking lights when it's not on the internet. No ads though. For now. It's kinda hard to find a dumb TV but I may just go with either a large-ish computer monitor or a projector.)
[+] [-] pkulak|4 years ago|reply
I'm pretty sure manufacturers make money through analytics and ads on smart TVs. What consumers like is the at-or-below-cost price of the hardware.
[+] [-] ccheney|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|4 years ago|reply
We're frustrated because our screens went from dumb panels that displayed signals to proprietary computing platforms with DRM, ads and a full surveillance capitalism suite complete with microphones and maybe even cameras, all of which do nothing but serve the business interests of corporate giants.
All that nice stuff that the average person wants? We want it as well. But we want it on our terms. I want to do things that will no doubt cost the manufacturer thousands of dollars: kill their ads, deny them any and all data, etc. The TV should obey.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hoov|4 years ago|reply
Edit.
They also connect to unprotected wifi networks to send data without your permission.
[+] [-] kumarvvr|4 years ago|reply
However, my wife and kid love it. The main reason, as pointed above, is extreme convenience and user experience.
Sit on the sofa, grab the remote, shout out a programme name and it starts up.
[+] [-] hakube|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nailer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Allower|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|4 years ago|reply
Smart TVs is one of those recurring HN topics where it’s clear that people made up their minds years ago, likely from a single bad experience. Now they can’t imagine that any progress has been made since then. There’s not much reason to buy a new TV these days if your old one still works (with an external TV box)
You can still find terrible smart TVs out there, of course, but the newer models from top tier vendors like LG are actually quite good.
I think it’s going to take many years before the angry HN smart TV comments catch up to modern reality.
[+] [-] josephcsible|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jaepa|4 years ago|reply
EDIT: I think there is plenty of reason to want an open source tv os. They are terrible, ad ridden, bloated commodities. But this seems to be only valid use of DRM I can think of.
[+] [-] mrkramer|4 years ago|reply
I don't anybody who stores private information on the Smart TV so when stolen Smart TVs start to circulate on the market no private information can be acquired or accessed(besides maybe your login credentials and a credit card) unlike with phones which store vast amount of your private content and information.
Idk how IMEI blacklisting works but if they can block at least your private phone number from the network that's good because rogue user can abuse your private phone number and cause havoc because your personal phone number is attached to your identity in numerous databases and records.
[+] [-] smoldesu|4 years ago|reply
It's not. People have been doing this for years now, it looks like the big brouhaha this time is that it's likely disabled when it connects to WiFi, not cellular or GPS info like how a phone might respond.
[+] [-] Santosh83|4 years ago|reply
The most important aspect here is remote connectivity. Software without remote connectivity may be less correctable, but it is also resistant towards tampering from unwanted directions. With network connectivity the device basically becomes impossible to fully control. In fact, admin control shifts from you, the owner, to someone else on the other side of the planet, unless you want to take a hammer to it.
These issue need vigorous debate. 1. Do we even want every device to become "smart"?, and 2. should smart devices be designed with 24x7 network connectivity requirements?
[+] [-] alerighi|4 years ago|reply
They are slow and laggy, even doing the most basic things like turning on or changing channel. It was faster the CRT that I used 20 years ago, and it had to warm up before displaying an image! But at least the audio started immediately...
They are also not usable. The UI is crappy and you don't find the most common settings, for example I had to search on the internet where to find the option to disable automatic turn off after 4 hours on an LG TV, the remotes are full of useless buttons (I don't want a huge Netflix button on a remote that if I press by mistake I will lose 10 seconds of the program I'm watching!).
Now I'm using a Sony TV, that I purchased 2 years ago only because it was the TV with less smart crap in it, it works pretty well, it does what a TV should do, let me watch TV channels, program guide, teletext (yes, I still use it), and nothing else (well in theory it has Netflix and other apps in it... but I never connected it to the internet and they don't get in the way). For all the other things, a simple media center PC does them better.
[+] [-] bellyfullofbac|4 years ago|reply
Alternatively maybe Samsung should just offer the innocent buyers a e.g. 5% discount to "legitimize" their TVs, so if they bought the TV from the back of the van for 50% off, they'll in effect need to pay 145% of the retail price. In effect the thieves would have become a new, strange, retail arm. It's like Uber, but for TV distribution!(TM)
More thoughts: the thieves should just cut off the Ethernet port (do they even have these?) and open the TV up and unplug the WiFi antenna. Sure it won't be an Internet TV anymore, but hey, at least their customers/suckers can still watch stuff.
[+] [-] aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA|4 years ago|reply
It’s stolen property. The subsequent buyers cannot legally own it.
[+] [-] debarshri|4 years ago|reply
It would be nice to see some more transparency in these remote monitoring and management systems. The system setup is very similar to Teamviewer or kaseya where you accept them to manage your device when you accept the terms of service or user agreement.
I am not sure if it is just me, but It is making a little paranoid. In my opinion, this is not a good thing.
[+] [-] ZDurmPhoto|4 years ago|reply
I also love the fact that this little projector can go in a drawer when not in use. No black mirror dominating a room. It also means I don't really watch much until near dark which for me makes it a little more special. I actually have to wait for the optimum conditions to enjoy (the horror!)
I walked into Costco a few days ago and the new TV's are always near the entrance. Colors are saturated to cartoon levels, motion is 'smoothed' and HDR looks weird. It looks less and less like anything relating to human vision.
I'm clearly bucking the trend since I'm guessing all these TV's are hot sellers.
[+] [-] kenned3|4 years ago|reply
Smart device wants to do some crap like this, in the recycle bin it goes but the TV which cost far more is still good.
Many of these manufacturers also have a well documented history of not supporting anything they sold, in an attempt to push new products (buy an android phone and see how many updates it actually gets).
Again, far cheaper and easier to replace the smart device instead of the TV when this happens.
[+] [-] metiscus|4 years ago|reply
Honestly, I'm not a big one for regulation, but I think those TVs should have a large print notification somewhere that says they're spying on you - although people would probably accept the convenience tradeoff.
[+] [-] lmilcin|4 years ago|reply
Given choice of "smart" TV vs no TV, I choose no TV.
Currently I have an old 30" monitor filling the function of the TV.
I would love to have nice shiny screen, but the price is just too high.
[+] [-] dilippkumar|4 years ago|reply
I purchased a Sony TV in 2019 after giving up on looking for 70" "dumb" television sets that would only connect to my PlayStation and act as a screen.
I decided that I would buy a smart tv but never connect it to the internet.
Every few days when I start my TV, I get an annoying "set up your Android TV" prompt that takes over my TV. I have to grab my remote and dismiss it to go back to my PlayStation.
If I happen to have a stolen television set, I would never know the difference. (My TV is from Sony, article is about Samsung TVs)
[+] [-] mc32|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anshumankmr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chmod775|4 years ago|reply
However not like this: "Should a customer’s TV be incorrectly blocked, the functionality can be reinstated once proof of purchase and a valid TV license is shared to [email protected] [...]".
That's flipping the burden of proof around. Clearly not the way to go about this.
Also of course things should work by default and not require you to go online.
[+] [-] mminer237|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onemoresoop|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ren_engineer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meowster|4 years ago|reply
But yes, I want a bigger market for "dumb" products such as cars, and other consumer appliances such as TVs.
[+] [-] speeder|4 years ago|reply
EU for example has regulations that make mandatory for all new cars to come with tracking devices and logging of what you do with the car.
EDIT: just remembered the name of one of such things. It is "eCall", now mandatory on EU. It mandates all cars must have GPS, Galileo, microphone, logging, cellphone transmitter, and be able to detect a serious emergency happened and call the police automatically and provide them with all data needed.
Seemly removing that crap from the car is illegal too. (I don't live in EU right now so I didn't dove too deep in that subject).
[+] [-] simmo9000|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deergomoo|4 years ago|reply
It affects the 2020 models too, but by the looks of a very long forum thread it seems to have been fixed with a software update. They have no interest in fixing the older models, but maybe some enterprising hacker would.
I want to say fuck Samsung and that my next TV will be LG, but LG have ads in the menus too. Judging by reviews, most high-end Sony panels cost more money but are missing features I value like VRR.
It’s really shitty, there is basically no amount of money you can spend to get both a high-end panel and a user experience that isn’t fucking awful.
[+] [-] notyourwork|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mminer237|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imglorp|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rock_artist|4 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27643208