Yes, Lorenzo! I remember talking to my friend Lorenzo back in 2013-14 when he was just starting this. So proud to finally see someone I know as the top story on HN :-)
There's a scene[1] in the Pixar movie 'Soul' where the main character(a black man) goes for a haircut to a black barbershop and has a deep philosophical discussion. Director Kemp Powers says 'There's really no more authentic black space in the community than a barber shop'[2] for the reason to have that scene.
Your friend and his team has put that space to a great use; Congratulations.
For me, this article is about mentoring younger people and benefits it provides. I mentor a young brilliant programmer who I used to work with. I maintained a relationship with him after I retired. He called me up last night frantic about some issues. I know he drinks too much and that he has mental health issues, so I was able to talk him through it. We talked about solutions for his drinking problem. He thanked me later for helping him. He calls me about 3 times a year with these freak outs. Helping him makes me feel useful and doing some good. I have a similar relationship with my son, so this programmer is like an adopted son, which I encourage because my philosophy is we are not alone in the world, but have people around us that care about us and are willing to help if we can put down our pride and ask for help. I wouldn't be alive today if I hadn't asked for help and then let people help me.
This used to be the case for most communities in America, before we decided that externalizing and professionalizing everything was the "economically efficient" solution. If you had a problem, you'd talk to the elder folks in your community and see what they thought about it. Now we barely know our neighbors and our community elders are shipped off to special-purpose holding facilities.
I don't know, the confidentiality of a professional therapist is huge. Plus a lot of the elders I know would advise you to deal with depression by sucking it up. Or try to pray the gay away.
This strikes me as rose-tinted nostalgia, along with straight up misinformation/weasel words. “Elders are shipped off to special-purpose holding facilities?” Really?
That’s just not a good-faith statement.
Younger people meet friends through work and school. Some of them – gasp – even know their neighbors!
But let’s be clear here: for even very close friends it’s often not preferable to burden them with my deepest chronic mental issues. They aren’t professionals and they don’t know how to approach those problems.
On top of that, there are negatives to that “village” system. Namely, peer pressure, shunning, gossip, etc. Sure, I want to confide in my family and friends, but there’s a line I won’t cross where a skilled, neutral, confidential party is the better choice.
I see the professionalization of mental health help to be an overall good thing. If I don’t trust my neighbor to help fix the engine control unit in my car why would I trust my neighbor to help me sort out complex mental health issues and find management tools and medication?
I’d guess that most of my family or neighbors’ or friends’ mental health advice is clinically, verifiably wrong/damaging/counterproductive.
Unfortunately, the trusted person in many communities could sometimes make things far, far worse. In my community there were a handful of priests and teachers at a local private school who abused children entrusted to their care.
I think that was just a natural progression brought on by the advances in psychology/psychiatry. Similar to how we've decided trust people with mental health issues to take their meds while participating in society, instead of just locking them away in an institution like we used to. Plus the other good points that people have brought up, like anonymity and generally sound, unbiased advice.
This is really interesting and seems like a great example of how small businesses are better for their community than chains. When I lived in Fort Greene brooklyn I was surprised by how many barbershops and hair salons there were, like 5 or more on the single little triangular block at fulton and greene. It seemed clear they were providing more of a community function than just the utility of getting a haircut that i was familiar with. On a side note I never got comfortable with making conversation while getting my haircut and eventually settled on just cutting my own hair at home. That said I never tried the barbershop-type places and usually went to pretty generic haircut shops.
No mention of Coming to America, where this happens?
That resonated with white kids in suburban america too (i'm one) who had the same experience, with friends' grandfathers the longtime town barbers. My grandfathers had both died when i was tiny, so it was the only grandfather situation i had recurringly, and it wasn't just white or just black, btw.
it's just a healthy thing, so good seeing it still goes on!
It isn't because they are barbers. That is secondary. These are men's groups. This is men helping other men. Thanks to continued differences re hairstyles barber shops are one of the very few all-male places left in modern society (other than locker rooms which have a distinct competitive air). So it is no surprise that many urban men feel at home and are more willing to talk at the barber than anywhere else.
It goes against pretty much everything in the zeitgeist, but yeah, men and boys are really hurting from this lack of all-male spaces. I hope culture boomerangs around enough to permit them sometime soon.
I recently came to realize that many addiction groups are actually a social replacement for buddies who used to go out drinking / partying all the time.
Since they can no longer party, a replacement group is needed and they all immediately share in common that they don’t want to drink or take drugs.
Maybe this is common knowledge but it was a lightbulb moment for me when I realized it.
This is timely because just yesterday I was watching "Central Intelligence" with Kevin Hart and The Rock.
Early in the movie Kevin Hart's wife tries to get him to go to therapy and he says 'Black people don’t go to therapy. They go to barbershops to talk about their problems. And then they watch “Barbershop.”'
I think therapy can be useful for people of all races, shapes, sizes, and genders, and I support all initiatives that encourage mental health.
If HN can look past the usual tropes, there's something interesting here. Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US culture? Let me list a few solutions and you will see why his is better than average.
1. Religion.
Pros: Going to church has tied communities together for millennia, and if you could just find some better pastors, it could continue for several millennia more.
Cons: Secularly administering religion like a drug to treat social ills is against the precepts of every known religion, due to the fact that we'd all expect missionaries to believe what they're preaching. People who go around saying "I believe because it helps me" but who do not actually believe anything notwithstanding, we all know that's not self-consistent.
2. An amalgamation of historical myths and power structures that tie people together on the basis of perceived brotherhood.
Pros: People love being tied together on the basis of perceived brotherhood, tribal identity has been around a long time, and there is no debating with the idea that it works.
Cons: This is a description of every supremacist organization.
3. You talk to the guy at the barbershop.
Pros: You like to talk to the guy at the barbershop.
Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.
None of these options are perfect... but the barbershop plan is not that bad.
> Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.
This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a haircut, and everyone needs a haircut.
Option 3 is actually the plot of an episode of the medical drama series "New Amsterdam". The main character of the show is the director of a fiction NYC public hospital. In episode 4 of season 2 he tries to encourage black men to get medical checkups. He choses to teach the barbers how to take blood pressure and prescribe some basic meds. The episode centers around the mistrust that black people in the US have of public healthcare, and how barbers are a natural social center for that community.
- Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot overstate how important this is to such communities.
- In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from different points in their life.
- Many religions instill a sense of humility.
Other cons:
- By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and
balances in the structure.
- A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members.
- In practice, some
of the nastiest and most egotistical people I’ve met attend churches.
You can bond with people over similar ethnic or life backgrounds without devolving into supremacy... people do this all the time around the world. Obviously, there need to be reasonable limits around the 'tribal identity' that preclude supremacist behavior, but it's certainly a valid way to build relationships and feel supported.
There's also therapy. Way more expensive than a haircut, and it's highly stigmatized especially among men. It doesn't provide community, per se, but it can help a person work through the issues that are making it hard for them to find and keep friends.
This is such a poorly crafted argument that it's hard to imagine it's not in bad faith. You listed religion twice! The only way this is representative of any kind of "normal" culture is if you have defined it that way.
Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about obtaining a community in the US.
leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms.
proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child communities.
functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues.
One word about the cons of #3, you can absolutely go to a black barbershop with no intentions of ever getting your haircut. Older black men will sometimes hang out there, or stop by through the day on the weekend just to catch up with one another.
This is common with cosmetology and all people regardless of background, my mother has been in that business for her entire working life and it’s surprising how much therapy she has to do outside of just cutting hair.
There's an outstanding featurette on Disney+ about "Soul" (part of the "Inside Pixar" series, I think) where Kemp Powers, the co-director and screenwriter talks specifically about adding the barbershop scene(s) because it's such an important part of the African-American culture.
The barbershop scenes from Soul were one of the things that made me think they were trying to make an authentic, specifically black movie that nevertheless had universal resonance (and they succeeded).
Because I have thick hair that grows fast I have to go to the barber often. So when I go to a barber I go for the quietest most disinterested barber I can find. I'm not good at doing small talk with the people cutting my hair. If they don't speak English even better.
Barbers are one of the few jobs left where the people servicing you actually converse with you. Grocery stores, restaurants, ride-shares, gyms, even your office are getting more impersonal.
Which is honestly not a bad thing. I don't need to bother someone or get bothered when I'm going shopping or just want a meal, and I might not necessarily socialize well with my co-workers even if I work well with them. But we need other avenues for adult socialization. Current apps like social media and Tinder are garbage.
Apps have the fundamental intention down: connecting people with similar interests. But online is not a replacement for in-person, all these popular social media apps are gamed and monetized. It's a hard problem.
The option to speak at length with a client while carrying out the work is a very satisfying quality in a job. I drove a pedicab every weekend for five years in downtown Austin and one of the great pleasures of the job is having your clients’ undivided attention for 5-10 min. It’s a perfect amount of time to get to know someone. Many times I would hit it off with them so well that we either exchanged info or I parked up up my cab and we continued to hang out for the evening. I’m someone who abhors small-talk, but if you give us time enough to connect in a sincere way it leaves you feeling great about the people you can meet.
I think being able to talk about issues in your life and have an attentive ear is 50% therapy right there. Too many men keep things to themselves for too long.
Once they feel cornered, their only perceived course of action is usually anger and violence in extreme cases.
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
[+] [-] jimkleiber|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Abishek_Muthian|4 years ago|reply
Your friend and his team has put that space to a great use; Congratulations.
[1] https://youtu.be/MPXjSCHsfxY?t=21
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0GLyDJveVs
[+] [-] okareaman|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SinParadise|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] systemvoltage|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceilingcorner|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ProjectArcturis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dangus|4 years ago|reply
That’s just not a good-faith statement.
Younger people meet friends through work and school. Some of them – gasp – even know their neighbors!
But let’s be clear here: for even very close friends it’s often not preferable to burden them with my deepest chronic mental issues. They aren’t professionals and they don’t know how to approach those problems.
On top of that, there are negatives to that “village” system. Namely, peer pressure, shunning, gossip, etc. Sure, I want to confide in my family and friends, but there’s a line I won’t cross where a skilled, neutral, confidential party is the better choice.
I see the professionalization of mental health help to be an overall good thing. If I don’t trust my neighbor to help fix the engine control unit in my car why would I trust my neighbor to help me sort out complex mental health issues and find management tools and medication?
I’d guess that most of my family or neighbors’ or friends’ mental health advice is clinically, verifiably wrong/damaging/counterproductive.
[+] [-] ilamont|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stronglikedan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tartoran|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacobrobbins|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jjtheblunt|4 years ago|reply
That resonated with white kids in suburban america too (i'm one) who had the same experience, with friends' grandfathers the longtime town barbers. My grandfathers had both died when i was tiny, so it was the only grandfather situation i had recurringly, and it wasn't just white or just black, btw.
it's just a healthy thing, so good seeing it still goes on!
[+] [-] sandworm101|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceilingcorner|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emerged|4 years ago|reply
Since they can no longer party, a replacement group is needed and they all immediately share in common that they don’t want to drink or take drugs.
Maybe this is common knowledge but it was a lightbulb moment for me when I realized it.
[+] [-] namlem|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vmception|4 years ago|reply
This article and the positive comments highlights a need for actual mental health advocates aimed at men.
[+] [-] joncrane|4 years ago|reply
Early in the movie Kevin Hart's wife tries to get him to go to therapy and he says 'Black people don’t go to therapy. They go to barbershops to talk about their problems. And then they watch “Barbershop.”'
I think therapy can be useful for people of all races, shapes, sizes, and genders, and I support all initiatives that encourage mental health.
[+] [-] whatshisface|4 years ago|reply
1. Religion.
Pros: Going to church has tied communities together for millennia, and if you could just find some better pastors, it could continue for several millennia more.
Cons: Secularly administering religion like a drug to treat social ills is against the precepts of every known religion, due to the fact that we'd all expect missionaries to believe what they're preaching. People who go around saying "I believe because it helps me" but who do not actually believe anything notwithstanding, we all know that's not self-consistent.
2. An amalgamation of historical myths and power structures that tie people together on the basis of perceived brotherhood.
Pros: People love being tied together on the basis of perceived brotherhood, tribal identity has been around a long time, and there is no debating with the idea that it works.
Cons: This is a description of every supremacist organization.
3. You talk to the guy at the barbershop.
Pros: You like to talk to the guy at the barbershop.
Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.
None of these options are perfect... but the barbershop plan is not that bad.
[+] [-] jedimastert|4 years ago|reply
This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc community centers, where black men can just go and be among other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a haircut, and everyone needs a haircut.
It's not expected of people to get a haircut.
[+] [-] hhs|4 years ago|reply
Indeed, in sociology this building of community is typically called the 'third place' [0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
[+] [-] andruby|4 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)...
[+] [-] nobodyandproud|4 years ago|reply
- Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot overstate how important this is to such communities.
- In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from different points in their life.
- Many religions instill a sense of humility.
Other cons: - By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and balances in the structure.
- A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members.
- In practice, some of the nastiest and most egotistical people I’ve met attend churches.
[+] [-] whymauri|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klyrs|4 years ago|reply
And, yeah. A barbershop is a decent stand-in.
[+] [-] rory|4 years ago|reply
A country club?
A service org like Rotary / Lion's Club?
I'm not sure what's out there, but there must options other than Jihad, Kristallnacht, or barber shop.
[+] [-] ouid|4 years ago|reply
Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about obtaining a community in the US.
leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms. proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child communities. functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues.
etc.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] x86_64Ubuntu|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zthrowaway|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] umvi|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] packetslave|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitwize|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsedlm|4 years ago|reply
Sometimes people just need to vent towards an 'objective' (external) listener who will provide feedback of some sort.
[+] [-] kamfc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] racl101|4 years ago|reply
Thankfully my hair is simple to cut, although.
[+] [-] armchairhacker|4 years ago|reply
Which is honestly not a bad thing. I don't need to bother someone or get bothered when I'm going shopping or just want a meal, and I might not necessarily socialize well with my co-workers even if I work well with them. But we need other avenues for adult socialization. Current apps like social media and Tinder are garbage.
Apps have the fundamental intention down: connecting people with similar interests. But online is not a replacement for in-person, all these popular social media apps are gamed and monetized. It's a hard problem.
[+] [-] Slow_Hand|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kelvin0|4 years ago|reply
Once they feel cornered, their only perceived course of action is usually anger and violence in extreme cases.
[+] [-] holdupnow|4 years ago|reply
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