Finger counting gives away your nationality

[jjgreen]

Drinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am culturally sensitive so not offended, he means "two more pints?"), I return the thumbs-up. He brings one pint.

[bsanr2]

During the Olympics, I noticed that many athletes seemed confused about where to go following their races/runs/performances. It always took them a second to orient and proceed in the direction the volunteers wanted them to go.

I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away."

https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...

[dylan604]

That's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then? Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost entirely to the barman?

If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?

[yogenpro]

Sorry for being ignorant but sincere question: where / which culture considers the V gesture offensive?

I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.

[nautilius]

I find it curious that you mention your not being offended at some gesture that happens to mean something a couple 100 or 1000 miles away from where you saw the gesture. Why would it require extra cultural sensitivity to realize that, if you visit some other place, that they have a different language (verbal and non-verbal)?

[jawns]

There's a distinction to be made between counting on one's fingers and communicating a number with one's fingers.

You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers. But when it comes to 11 and up, you're generally not going to be able to communicate those numbers in a universally recognizable way. (Although "flashing" one's hands to represent intervals of ten is somewhat well understood.)

On the other hand, it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers higher than 10, using whatever system appeals to you, regardless of whether others can understand it. The article talks about using the segments between each knuckle.

There's even a further distinction to be made here, though, between using your fingers to count and using your fingers to maintain state. You might, for instance, be able to easily use knuckle segments to count. But to maintain state, you need to make some movement with your fingers (e.g. bending a knuckle) with each transition period and then hold that new position for some period of time. And that can be hard to do with many finger positions.

[sorbits]

> You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers

For the numbers 6-10 China have hand gestures where number of fingers held up does not correspond to the number.

I was confused by this when I wanted to buy something and the lady crossed her two index fingers.

I took it to mean that the item was not for sale (out of stock), but later learned that this is the hand gesture for the number ten.

[omegalulw]

> it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers

This is tangential, but why do people count to themselves using fingers? Why not just count in your head?

[Lammy]

I first learned about this from the regional box art variations for Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (1994):

- JP: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg

- US: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg

- EU: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg

[adventured]

When I was young I first realized that there was regional variety to this in the US, from Michael Jordan (he grew up in North Carolina):

2: https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg

3: https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg

Where I grew up, several states north of the Carolinas, three is pretty much always the index/fore + middle + ring fingers. Prior to seeing Jordan do that I didn't recall having noticed someone counting / signaling three with the pinky instead of the index.

[jhncls]

The correct way is to count in binary, and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary

[eurasiantiger]

I tried ordering 99 glasses of beer because why not, the waiter took a while and finally arrived holding 792 beers.

[jhellan]

I am guilty of having taught that to a five year old during a hiking trip. He is now an engineer.

[thaumasiotes]

> and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand

Given that most people cannot move their ring finger independently of their middle finger, this seems like a stretch.

[danellis]

The first time I saw this, it was a blind person on a train counting stations. Personally, I would need a lot of practice to gain that dexterity.

[cochne]

The number 4 may be an issue for some cultures!

[toxik]

And with two’s complement, we can even have negative numbers!

[mngnt]

So 4 is the numeric equivalent of a raised middle finger.

[mngnt]

I like what I got to know as "the Japanese way" to count to 144 on my fingers. I´m sure it´s not exclusive to Japan tho. Using thumb as a pointer, I count not on the fingers, but their segments. Each finger is 3 segments, which gives 12 per hand. Now, to boost it, one hand is used to count the dozens from the other hand. Gets me thinking, maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times? Did our ancestors just use their counting fingers better?

[sombremesa]

From TFA:

> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.

Which is false. This method is indeed "taught" (folk, not academia) in India (and Japan), but it's not the way a majority of natives will actually count in everyday situations.

There are indeed important cultural distinctions re:counting in areas (like tally marks), but articles like these which are plausible yet false (this isn't a shibboleth at all) muddy the waters.

[harywilke]

This might interest you. "Sexagesimal, also known as base 60 or sexagenary,[1] is a numeral system with sixty as its base. It originated with the ancient Sumerians in the 3rd millennium BC, was passed down to the ancient Babylonians, and is still used—in a modified form—for measuring time, angles, and geographic coordinates. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal

[thaumasiotes]

> maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times?

The popularity of 12-based systems is due to the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.

[11thEarlOfMar]

And a key plot point in Inglourious Basterds.

https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2...

[folli]

This scene is a particular pet peeve of mine (I know it's a movie, but everyone needs something to be picky about...).

The character played by Fassbender at one point explains his peculiar accent by being born and raised in a village near Piz Palü (an hommage by Tarantino to "White Hell of Piz Palü" a 1929 silent movie). However, this mountain is located in Switzerland, right by the italian border, far away from Germany. Still, his cover is blown by a tiny mistake on how he orders beer while everyone glances over the glaring inconsistency of his birthplace.

[pedrosorio]

The bbc article claims in the UK (and “many countries in Europe”) start with the thumb, but the Inglorious Basterds scene seems to contradict that.

The business insider article also claims people start counting with their thumb in Portugal but I start with the index finger and while I’m not sure everyone else does it, I think using the 3 middle fingers to represent the number 3 (like the British spy) is far more common than using the thumb.

[lazyant]

Funny I don't use either method to show or count three; I use my pinky (who I'd start counting) and the next two fingers.

[ncmncm]

I was told while in eastern Europe that, in Russia, you signal numbers by tucking fingers. Just the thumb tucked: one, thumb and forefinger: two, a fist: five.

It is all very arbitrary. The Quentin Tarentino scene was very unconvincing. Fassbinder's character was well travelled, and could have any number of reasons for having a different habit. I bet there were and are places in Germany that differ from the common form, and even that match the English convention; and places in England that match Germany's. (But probably not Russia's.)

Similarly, somebody who left their shoe at the scene of a firefight, if not stupid, would toss the other one immediately.

[pandaman]

From my experience of growing up and living in Russia, I have not seen anybody showing numbers like this. People do count by tucking fingers but if they show a number to somebody else they show it with straight fingers, starting with the index and ending with the thumb. Could be some regional thing, Russia is pretty big.

[johndoe0815]

This can be fatal - as shown in Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds...

[Causality1]

One thing not mentioned is that finger counting methods vary based on context as well as culture. If I'm counting to myself I start with the thumb. If I'm using finger counting as part of body language like by speaking about three points one by one, I start with the index finger.

[rzzzt]

In <local country>, the countdown for launching rally cars is different from the regular order: 5 - all fingers extended, 4 - thumb bent, 3 - pinky bent, 2 - ring finger retracts, 1 - middle finger bent, 0 - index finger points toward road to signal "go".

[Talanes]

Every time I've heard some variation of this, the example is always three. I'm more interested in four. Does the pattern follow through? Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down.

[callmeal]

>Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down.

laughs in piano I think I can move multiple fingers independently and concurrently thanks to a lot of piano drills!

[coccinelle]

I think French people would do 4 with just the pinkie down. At least this specific French person does :). In my case that means the ring finger is not perfectly up, but still enough that it's clear it's raised.

[ragona]

An interesting exception to this is that American Sign Language (ASL) counts differently from normal American cultural hand counting. For example, three involves a thumb, whereas the normal US/UK idiom is only fingers.

[betwixthewires]

Reminds me of that scene in Inglorious Basterds where the spies are outed because of this.

[gumby]

> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count.

My mother does this, and additionally used to do arithmetic this way.

She never really taught us how to do math this way.

[nikhilgk]

> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. > This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.

The first part is true, but not the second part. You use the thumb as a pointer to track the lines on the other 4 fingers. So you count up to 16 on each hand. Besides, the thumb has 1 line segment less than the other fingers.

[selimthegrim]

We (Pakistani family) used to do rosary (mala) on our fingers this way

[jbluepolarbear]

I’ve always counted starting with the thumb, but use fingers only when showing a value lower than 5. And this is how my family does it too.

[tyingq]

Got 3 beers in Germany when I wanted 2 many, many, times before I learned.

[jerf]

You've piqued my curiosity; what did you think meant 2 that they thought meant 3?

[Milolol]

Money counting as well:

"How money is counted in different countries"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ

[dghughes]

Wired has some videos on Youtube interviewing a former spy chief. In it she said one of the things that can give you away as a spy is the way you count with you fingers.

[odiroot]

I really like the Chinese way of counting. As far as I remember you can go as high as 99 on both hands.

Still, I'm never able to memorise it, no matter how many times I learn it.

[FabHK]

Basically they do the "normal" 1-5 with one hand (well, one of the several normal ways), then have specific gestures for 6-10 with one hand as well. Use both hands and you get to 100, I suppose.