Jan 26, 2009: "I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do... the whole 'break everything' model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else."
- http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-ide...
Jul 26, 2011: "I used to be upset when gnome developers decided it was "too complicated" for the user to remap some mouse buttons. In gnome3, the developers have apparently decided that it's "too complicated" to actually do real work on your desktop, and have decided to make it really annoying to do.
I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really."
Linus has always endorsed being pissed off at your interface and ditching it for something radically different. The current move, as you can read, is not one of satisfaction with XFCE. Clearly Linus just thinks all UIs are shit, and maybe that's a signal no one has figured this out yet, or maybe it's just a signal he's a curmudgeon.
(Edited for typos - I kept swapping 'Linux' and 'Linus.')
My biggest problem with Gnome 3 (and the number one reason I abandoned it in favor of Xmonad, which I've come to like quite a lot), was that it breaks the UI concept of the modifier key.
Simply pressing and releasing the super key (with no other keypress in between) triggers a change of state (bringing up the "overview" or whatever it's called). The modifier key is such a basic interface concept that I struggle to imagine why they would go out of their way to break it -- any way I look at it, it's just monumentally idiotic. And best of all, I could find no way of disabling it.
Admittedly, they're not the first to do this. OpenOffice has done something similar for quite a while (pressing and releasing a modifier key brings up a menu); that was one of the many things about OO that pissed me off. Nevertheless, precedent is insufficient justification for such a thoroughly moronic change.
I've been wanting to rant about that for a while now, glad to get it off my chest. Thankfully, Xmonad is fantastic, so in a way I'm grateful to Gnome 3 for leading me to switch to it.
It's not without precedent; In Windows, tapping the Alt key moves keyboard focus to the menu-bar (at least, it did in older version of Windows that had standard menu bars).
To be fair, I've nobbled that particular behaviour of GNOME 3.0 because it prevents using the Super key for any other keyboard shortcuts. If I read bugzilla rightly, that should be fixed in 3.2, though.
The primary function of the Windows key has been to open the Start menu since the day it was introduced. The modifier key aspect of it was always secondary.
Well. You could argue the Super key is not a Modifier key, afaik it was popularized as they "Windows" key, which when it became popular pressing it by itself caused the start menu to open, doing something similar to what one of the most popular operating systems (XP) gas done is at least not something unexpected to normal users.
That said, I switched back to Gnome 2 because I find Gnome 3 basically unusable for anything other than browsing the web in a single window.
Also, in case someone mistakes my point of view I should say I don't use windows nor like it at all.
I guess you're just misunderstanding the concept of the key. A modifier key is only modifying when you press something at the same time. So when you do alt-a, that's a modifier; when you just press and release, it does something else. Quite simple, I never had a problem with it.
You can change the activities/overview screen shortcut in the 'Shortcuts' tab of the keyboard settings panel. It's located under the 'System' category.
I came really close to the same decision. But honestly: I like gnome-shell (not all of gnome 3, the totally mucked up dconf/gconf configuration mess in F15 is unforgivable).
Along with all the favorite gadgets, it also throws out a ton of crap. It just gets out of the way for the most part. The clean vertical desktop scrolling is actually a fantastic feature once you get used to it. Putting the status icon mess into a hot corner seems weird the first time, but I find I quickly got used to it and that it's a great way to save screen space. Likewise I don't need to dedicate screen space to a desktop switcher: swapping desktops via the top left hot corner can be done very accurately (after a little practice) with two quick flicks of the mouse. Dragging a window all the way to the side locks it down to a half-screen-maximized mode which duplicates almost exactly my preferred working environment and saves me a ton of fiddling.
Really, I think it's a keeper. It's got some serious maturity (though not stability) problems in Fedora 15 right now. I think the defaults for some of the settings are just wrong. But overall I like it.
I really like Gnome shell too, and I agree that there are a lot of settings that are just wrong by default... I have to change quite a few (many of which are stupidly hidden so I have to do it via gconf or a tweak application) each time I set up a computer with Gnome 3 to make it usable. And even then there are some design issues that totally ruin some parts of the user experience that I hope are fixed soon. For example, you can't shut down the computer. At least, you can't from the GUI without googling, and finding out about the secret key you have to hold to make the option appear. So they've gone and made an function that many users every day completely hidden and undiscoverable.
And when you complain, well, of course they can't change it because "it's in The Design", as if it was a document set on a stone tablet delivered from heaven...
This is going to be unpopular, I know. I'm a linux buff too, diehard fan since 1997.
BUT. One has got to admit the Windows 7 interface is great. I bought a new notebook that came with it and I gotta say, I wish Linux had ONE great interface and standard GUI programming API.
> I wish Linux had ONE great interface and standard GUI programming API.
Gnome2 was the de facto standard Linux desktop for probably a decade. Then it was abandoned overnight because the developers got simply bored with endlessly maintaining it for free. But exactly that, maintaining, polishing and evolitionary improving Gnome2 and letting an app and extension ecosystem slowly grow for the next 10-15 years, is what Linux desktop needs.
After decades of boasting "stability" over Windows, I think Linux desktop users are slowly starting to reckognize the real value behind a commercially long-term maintained "stable" API. Having a "free" desktop is in practice useless when there is no one willing to maintain it.
One has got to admit the Windows 7 interface is great.
Opinions. I hate the Windows Interface with a passion, the same goes for OS X, and I'm not too fond of G3 either. It's just needless clutter, completely pointless blingbling, bloat and is generally unusable.
I say that as someone who hasn't been on Linux for too long (about a year now), and slowly worked his way from Ubuntu 10.04 to a custom Arch Linux install running Xmonad, and I'm never going back to stacking WMs on my main machines. Ever. All they do is hinder productivity.
By "ONE" do you mean at least one, as in implying there are none right now. Or by "ONE" do you mean that you wish there would be one and only one GUI/DE for linux?
If it's the first, I would agree because I would willingly pay money to use the Windows 7 or even OS X interfaces in Linux. Essentially, I feel that while Linux has software I can't live without, there is not a single WM/DE out there that I can use without being annoyed every 20 minutes or without having to spend weeks configuring it. Gnome came closest before the gnome-shell move, now KDE is the closest but it's seriously still too buggy and "WTF" inducing. I'm not sure if it would be less work to remove all the "default/assumed" features from KDE (like the wallet that irritates me even when browsing websites) or to set up XFCE to some bearable degree from scratch.
Regardless, I'd still take this selection of environments that are all either ugly, time consuming to configure, buggy, or flat out annoying over having no choice at all. Even if the "no choice" option was really excellent, I would not like the thought of being stuck with it knowing that under some rare condition it might be useless and my only way out is a complete OS switch. Example: as much as I praise the windows 7 UI, I would hate to try and deal with it if I lost my ability to use a mouse. Meanwhile, I know there are nice options in the Linux world that I could use if this was the case.
Pretty much it boils down to my opinion that no interface is going to be good at every use case. And for that reason I'd rather have a slew of mediocre ones that span a broader range over a single one that covers a small spectrum but does it well.
I've been using Gnome 3 for a few months now. When I started, people told me on Twitter to stick with it and that I'd grow to like it. I didn't. And after three months, I'm very tempted to turn on compat mode (something I avoid doing in most software I use)
So the same shitstorm that hit when the new Ubuntu interface came on is now hitting Gnome 3. I wish the Linux interface designers would realize that desktops are not tablets and that they should be making a super polished desktop interface and not trying to break everything down.
The good thing about Linux though is that in Linux you always have options. There is always another GUI. So I think linux should be able to survive this wrong turn relatively unscathed.
Interesting that he felt the need to change to either Gnome3 or XFCE. Why not keep using Gnome2 if it works for him? If enough people would keep using Gnome2 it probably could be forked like KDE3 was forked (although I'm not sure if Trinity actually survived)
With GNOME3, I really tried. I decided to give it some time to see if the workflow would sink in but after a month of using it, I reverted back to GNOME2. Using GNOME3 makes you feel like the developers have effectively decided how your desktop workflow should be. I'm quite disappointed with this trend towards a polished, "grandma-friendly" desktop.
As of now, I'm fine with GNOME2. Perhaps I will switch to something like XFCE in the future.
"I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3." I like Gnome 3 (quite a bit), then again I don't know Linus.
On a another note, it seems every time he speaks he gets several hundred likes and yet he doesn't say anything particularly special/insightful compare to the other people in conversation (I found this somewhat humorous). :)
This seems to be the same for other uber-celebs who are posting on G+ (the only other person in his league of popularity who I read with any regularity would probably have to be Markus Perrson (aka @Notch), and it's the exact same thing for his posts.. although I also observe this on posts from Randall Munroe, Leo Laporte, etc).
When contrasted against twitter (which has the similar "pick who you want to follow" semantics), G+ has a more succinct ego-stroking mechanism for people who want to make their sycophancy more apparent (I kid, I kid.. sorta).
I really wanted to like Gnome 3 and gave it an extended trial run. I really like the gnome shell for the most part, overview mode, left dock, dynamic desktops. It felt right on my 14" 16x9 laptop screen. However, it took a serious hit in terms of power management and other laptop usability - no auto dim on battery? No exposed lid close event? No exposed power profiles? It also didn't feel nearly as good on my dual desktop monitors. A lot of what the shell does right is conserving real estate, but when you have a lot of it the extra room isn't so critical and you start missing some of the convenience.
I did absolutely hate it until I learned a number of keyboard shortcuts and how to launch applications by typing a few letters of what you want.
I am back with KDE 4.6 for now, but I am looking forward to giving it another try after they've polished it up a bit. I heard when it launched that august was a target for a point release.
Excuse me but what is Gnome3? I've been using Xubuntu and Xfce4 for a number of years now and have been really happy with it. Periodically I will try regular Ubuntu and Gnome just seems to have too many awkward issues. For example it insists on me having a desktop (preferable one full of icons and Excel spreadsheets). Even if I turn off icons on the desktop, I still must have the Desktop directory. Their file manager is also confused: it thinks I need help mounting network file systems. That's the job of things like Fuse and NFS, not of a GUI application. Things like this are the reason why I prefer not to spend too long using Gnome.
xfce4 is really awesome. I can vouch for it as well. If you need a productive, traditional desktop, then try it. The only thing I miss is the gnome samba mount options.
I always thought I was weird for liking XFCE more than Gnome. Sounds like I'm not and it's time to give Xubuntu a full-time shot, especially with Unity being the default in Ubuntu now.
Gnome3 doesn't fail because of that - it fails because it doesn't alert the user and teach them the changes as they use Gnome3.
For example. I have Firefox running. I want another Firefox window, so I click the Firefox icon. At this point, why doesn't Gnome3 say "Hey! Just so you know, you've already got a Firefox window open, so we'll take you to that - but if you want a NEW Firefox window, click the logo again while holding down Control".
The last time someone tried that in a big way was MSOffice. Remember the paperclip? People's reaction was so violently negative everyone has been scared to try it again.
I've had ALT-F2 bound to New Terminal window for the past 12 years now, through half-a-dozen window managers. ALT-F1 is new browser, and I've got some preferred CTRL-ALT-arrow keys for moving around virtual desktops. Everything has configurable keys and has for a long time, though sometimes you have to create a one-line shell script to pop up a terminal, find your local menu editor, add that script, then give that menu entry a shortcut.
Xmonad is entirely unlike Gnome, KDE, XFCE et al. And thank goodness because I don't like 'desktops', overlapping windows and what not. Xmonad and its brethren wms give me what I want out of a GUI.
As a designer, this kind of attitude is one of the many reasons I don't contribute to open-source projects. You can't touch anything without people complaining about change. Computers are very different than they were 20 years ago yet we're tied down to outdated interface principles. In Linux-land, we're expected to design for the way things have always been not the way they should be. It seems geeks are just as stubborn about change as everyone else.
Actually, I would be really interested on research done in this area.
What are some modern UI concepts (apart from those oh so usable interfaces offered by this big fruit company)?
Are there any fresh concepts out there at all? I would really like to see what might be possible if somebody really starts developing something radically different and well suited for the novice computer user and the ubergeek at the same time.
Hiding complexity from the user might be one option, but there should be more ways to make use of the gui concept than just oversimplyfing things.
Exactly my thoughts. Once Gentoo drops gnome2 it's Xfce for me. I used it before on a low-powered laptop and it was nearly as good as gnome2, in some cases better.
I find it amusing that Linus finds what I consider annoying behavior more usable. Changing things up is always painful. I really hate clicking on Terminal and having something new pop up when I might just be trying to bring that application back into focus (to me 'one window' = 'one application' is a fallacy).
EDIT: Seriously though. People are making a big deal out of someone having a different opinion. Silly.
Gnome has been around, what, 10 years? If they are randomly changing behavior just because someone feeling it would be 'better', it indicates either nobody is using Gnome, or they don't care if anyone has been using Gnome. I don't see either Mac or Windows making these sorts of minor, workflow-breaking changes and just telling people to suck it up.
I can't get used to Gnome, can't get used to KDE4 (and while we're at it - also not to Windows 7). Maybe because I grew up with older Desktop Environments, but nothing even comes close to KDE 3.5.10 for me. Since I updated to Debian Squeeze which no longer used KDE 3.5 I've stopped being happy when working on my system :-( I'll have to check-out Trinity at some time, I'm just a little worried if that project has the man-power to really keep KDE 3.5 alive.
When was the last time you tried KDE4? I found that it was very unstable and buggy when I first tried it when it came out. Nowadays it seems stable (haven't had it crash anymore), and much less buggy (ie. normal level of bugginess).
[+] [-] Triumvark|14 years ago|reply
Dec 13, 2005: "I encourage people to switch to KDE. This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease." - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00...
Jan 26, 2009: "I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do... the whole 'break everything' model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else." - http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012209-open-source-ide...
Jul 26, 2011: "I used to be upset when gnome developers decided it was "too complicated" for the user to remap some mouse buttons. In gnome3, the developers have apparently decided that it's "too complicated" to actually do real work on your desktop, and have decided to make it really annoying to do.
I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really."
Linus has always endorsed being pissed off at your interface and ditching it for something radically different. The current move, as you can read, is not one of satisfaction with XFCE. Clearly Linus just thinks all UIs are shit, and maybe that's a signal no one has figured this out yet, or maybe it's just a signal he's a curmudgeon.
(Edited for typos - I kept swapping 'Linux' and 'Linus.')
[+] [-] 1amzave|14 years ago|reply
Simply pressing and releasing the super key (with no other keypress in between) triggers a change of state (bringing up the "overview" or whatever it's called). The modifier key is such a basic interface concept that I struggle to imagine why they would go out of their way to break it -- any way I look at it, it's just monumentally idiotic. And best of all, I could find no way of disabling it.
Admittedly, they're not the first to do this. OpenOffice has done something similar for quite a while (pressing and releasing a modifier key brings up a menu); that was one of the many things about OO that pissed me off. Nevertheless, precedent is insufficient justification for such a thoroughly moronic change.
I've been wanting to rant about that for a while now, glad to get it off my chest. Thankfully, Xmonad is fantastic, so in a way I'm grateful to Gnome 3 for leading me to switch to it.
[+] [-] thristian|14 years ago|reply
To be fair, I've nobbled that particular behaviour of GNOME 3.0 because it prevents using the Super key for any other keyboard shortcuts. If I read bugzilla rightly, that should be fixed in 3.2, though.
[+] [-] ootachi|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heelhook|14 years ago|reply
That said, I switched back to Gnome 2 because I find Gnome 3 basically unusable for anything other than browsing the web in a single window.
Also, in case someone mistakes my point of view I should say I don't use windows nor like it at all.
[+] [-] roel_v|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walrus|14 years ago|reply
I personally chose win-space instead of just win.
[+] [-] bokchoi|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tichy|14 years ago|reply
I think the point of UIs is to make documentation superfluous. If I have to read about that key in the docs, the UI has failed.
[+] [-] ajross|14 years ago|reply
Along with all the favorite gadgets, it also throws out a ton of crap. It just gets out of the way for the most part. The clean vertical desktop scrolling is actually a fantastic feature once you get used to it. Putting the status icon mess into a hot corner seems weird the first time, but I find I quickly got used to it and that it's a great way to save screen space. Likewise I don't need to dedicate screen space to a desktop switcher: swapping desktops via the top left hot corner can be done very accurately (after a little practice) with two quick flicks of the mouse. Dragging a window all the way to the side locks it down to a half-screen-maximized mode which duplicates almost exactly my preferred working environment and saves me a ton of fiddling.
Really, I think it's a keeper. It's got some serious maturity (though not stability) problems in Fedora 15 right now. I think the defaults for some of the settings are just wrong. But overall I like it.
[+] [-] stephen_g|14 years ago|reply
And when you complain, well, of course they can't change it because "it's in The Design", as if it was a document set on a stone tablet delivered from heaven...
[+] [-] whackberry|14 years ago|reply
BUT. One has got to admit the Windows 7 interface is great. I bought a new notebook that came with it and I gotta say, I wish Linux had ONE great interface and standard GUI programming API.
[+] [-] muuh-gnu|14 years ago|reply
Gnome2 was the de facto standard Linux desktop for probably a decade. Then it was abandoned overnight because the developers got simply bored with endlessly maintaining it for free. But exactly that, maintaining, polishing and evolitionary improving Gnome2 and letting an app and extension ecosystem slowly grow for the next 10-15 years, is what Linux desktop needs.
After decades of boasting "stability" over Windows, I think Linux desktop users are slowly starting to reckognize the real value behind a commercially long-term maintained "stable" API. Having a "free" desktop is in practice useless when there is no one willing to maintain it.
[+] [-] slowpoke|14 years ago|reply
I say that as someone who hasn't been on Linux for too long (about a year now), and slowly worked his way from Ubuntu 10.04 to a custom Arch Linux install running Xmonad, and I'm never going back to stacking WMs on my main machines. Ever. All they do is hinder productivity.
[+] [-] nxn|14 years ago|reply
If it's the first, I would agree because I would willingly pay money to use the Windows 7 or even OS X interfaces in Linux. Essentially, I feel that while Linux has software I can't live without, there is not a single WM/DE out there that I can use without being annoyed every 20 minutes or without having to spend weeks configuring it. Gnome came closest before the gnome-shell move, now KDE is the closest but it's seriously still too buggy and "WTF" inducing. I'm not sure if it would be less work to remove all the "default/assumed" features from KDE (like the wallet that irritates me even when browsing websites) or to set up XFCE to some bearable degree from scratch.
Regardless, I'd still take this selection of environments that are all either ugly, time consuming to configure, buggy, or flat out annoying over having no choice at all. Even if the "no choice" option was really excellent, I would not like the thought of being stuck with it knowing that under some rare condition it might be useless and my only way out is a complete OS switch. Example: as much as I praise the windows 7 UI, I would hate to try and deal with it if I lost my ability to use a mouse. Meanwhile, I know there are nice options in the Linux world that I could use if this was the case.
Pretty much it boils down to my opinion that no interface is going to be good at every use case. And for that reason I'd rather have a slew of mediocre ones that span a broader range over a single one that covers a small spectrum but does it well.
[+] [-] sriramk|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] npaquin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hristov|14 years ago|reply
The good thing about Linux though is that in Linux you always have options. There is always another GUI. So I think linux should be able to survive this wrong turn relatively unscathed.
[+] [-] sjwright|14 years ago|reply
Enough said, let's move on.
[+] [-] zokier|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mvanga|14 years ago|reply
As of now, I'm fine with GNOME2. Perhaps I will switch to something like XFCE in the future.
[+] [-] D3lt4|14 years ago|reply
On a another note, it seems every time he speaks he gets several hundred likes and yet he doesn't say anything particularly special/insightful compare to the other people in conversation (I found this somewhat humorous). :)
[+] [-] olsonjeffery|14 years ago|reply
When contrasted against twitter (which has the similar "pick who you want to follow" semantics), G+ has a more succinct ego-stroking mechanism for people who want to make their sycophancy more apparent (I kid, I kid.. sorta).
OTOH, I suppose, twitter has the retweet.
[+] [-] trotsky|14 years ago|reply
I did absolutely hate it until I learned a number of keyboard shortcuts and how to launch applications by typing a few letters of what you want.
I am back with KDE 4.6 for now, but I am looking forward to giving it another try after they've polished it up a bit. I heard when it launched that august was a target for a point release.
[+] [-] IgorPartola|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hactually|14 years ago|reply
The persistent desktop directory is down to your distribution/XDG - check out ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs to remove it.
As for "it thinks I need help mounting network file systems"; Could you clarify what you mean?
[+] [-] 16s|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] f7u12|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] papaf|14 years ago|reply
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1725
Xubuntu is still an excellent choice though.
[+] [-] nodata|14 years ago|reply
For example. I have Firefox running. I want another Firefox window, so I click the Firefox icon. At this point, why doesn't Gnome3 say "Hey! Just so you know, you've already got a Firefox window open, so we'll take you to that - but if you want a NEW Firefox window, click the logo again while holding down Control".
[+] [-] wisty|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kungfooguru|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jerf|14 years ago|reply
I've had ALT-F2 bound to New Terminal window for the past 12 years now, through half-a-dozen window managers. ALT-F1 is new browser, and I've got some preferred CTRL-ALT-arrow keys for moving around virtual desktops. Everything has configurable keys and has for a long time, though sometimes you have to create a one-line shell script to pop up a terminal, find your local menu editor, add that script, then give that menu entry a shortcut.
[+] [-] SkyMarshal|14 years ago|reply
http://i.imgur.com/EB5K9.png
[+] [-] spooneybarger|14 years ago|reply
Xmonad is entirely unlike Gnome, KDE, XFCE et al. And thank goodness because I don't like 'desktops', overlapping windows and what not. Xmonad and its brethren wms give me what I want out of a GUI.
[+] [-] Symmetry|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zenspunk|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sciurus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] william42|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sciurus|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] WeAreKnights|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tucosan|14 years ago|reply
Are there any fresh concepts out there at all? I would really like to see what might be possible if somebody really starts developing something radically different and well suited for the novice computer user and the ubergeek at the same time.
Hiding complexity from the user might be one option, but there should be more ways to make use of the gui concept than just oversimplyfing things.
[+] [-] Jach|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] strmpnk|14 years ago|reply
EDIT: Seriously though. People are making a big deal out of someone having a different opinion. Silly.
[+] [-] alecbenzer|14 years ago|reply
> 'one window' = 'one application' is a fallacy
> hate clicking on Terminal and having something new pop up when I might just be trying to bring that application back into focus
Aren't those conflicting statements? The latter only occurs when the former is not considered a fallacy, no?
[+] [-] flomo|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cabalamat|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coffeeaddicted|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jpr|14 years ago|reply