It's so mind boggling to me that we're okay with this level of uncertainty about the systems we rely on every day. I run LTSC with updates disabled because the idea that something that's working one day would stop working the next drives me up the wall. I have a linux phone (which is awful) because at least when that breaks it's my fault and I can always just put it back into a known working state.
I hate how my relationship with Microsoft/Google etc is essentially one where they're constantly pushing the boundaries of what I'm willing to put up with. It's fucking abusive.
This is in a pre-release build. I'm not happy to hear about it, but in reality Windows 10 has been incredibly reliable. Can't remember the last time I saw a crash to be honest, and I use it for 8-10 hours a day most of the time.
> ... we're okay with this level of uncertainty about the systems we rely on every day.
I'm not included in this "we". And I definitely pay a price for that by sacrificing some convenience. I'm sure the price would be lower if more people were willing to make the same sacrifices.
I can understand most end users being okay with that. Most are not educated to know the problems or alternatives. But developers should consider how contributions in code or money could improve competition and encourage development of better software for everyone.
Isn't it true for a lot of things we rely on every day ?
Remembering the days of commuting by train, wether the train will come on time or not was a lottery. Traveling by car, accidents, jams, not being able to park etc. are mundane.
Elevator/escalators being in maintenance was also a common sight.
Things being broken feels part of life, and we learn to plan ahead, have alternatives or deal with it when there is nothing to help.
I think computers and remote services entering our everyday lives is part of that.
> It's so mind boggling to me that we're okay with this level of uncertainty about the systems we rely on every day.
I'm not OK with it. It's one of the many reasons why I stopped using Windows on my own machines a decade or so ago. Sadly, though, I still have to use it at work, and every workday, I'm reminded why I stopped using Windows.
I’m not ok with it. Nothing in my house runs Windows and even my phone runs Linux with a fairly normal X11 DE at this point.
At work all the coorperate crapware makes the machine so unstable anyway Microsoft’s malware would just be one more thing. It’s a broken window (heh) situation.
quote
This problem combines two of latter-day Windows' most annoying tendencies. First, the operating system relentlessly promotes and prioritizes Microsoft's first-party apps and services. Second, the operating system talks to Microsoft's servers in the background to report diagnostic data, fetch advertisements, and even download Windows Store apps without asking. As Aleksandersen correctly points out, these non-essential background processes shouldn't be capable of breaking core functionality.
unquote
> Second, the operating system talks to Microsoft's servers in the background to report diagnostic data, fetch advertisements, and even download Windows Store apps without asking.
Microsoft has learned nothing from Solar Winds. Time for some popcorn.
It's funny how the concept of security has slipped from "no open ports and no default services" to "backdoors (automatic download and install) and telemetry (data exfiltration without permission -also backdoor).
To clarify, though, this is just an issue for people who are deliberately getting preview builds (aka beta testers), correct? The article feels pretty click-baity with that critical detail not part of the title.
This is like driving some prototype car and having the brakes go out when your tail light burns out. It's a serious concern because it's not something that should be able to happen, with a sane design. Sure, it's click-baity, but it's also insanity.
With that said, I get that things go bad in betas - this is the point of a beta release - but this still feels egregiously bad. It also highlights the direction Windows is going, which is cause for criticism even if this worked perfectly.
internet downloaded ads shouldn't be able to break your computers.
like, even in a buggy system, it shouldn't happened, and there is clearly not enough isolation, something that isn't gonna get fixed in a release candidate and be prepared for this to somehow turn into a ring0 exploit later down the line.
One bug I've been hitting for a couple of years on Windows 10:
If the computer starts with a working Internet connection, but then you lose Internet, Start Menu search just stops working during net downtime. Meaning I type some app name like "calc" in the Start Menu search box and nothing appears! Which is absolutely ridiculous, I can't search for locally installed apps, or Windows settings. Even if I disabled Cortana and Internet search in the Statt Menu (or maybe because of it?)
And I failed to Google the problem since all the keywords combinations I tried inevitably lead to some article on how to disable Internet search in the Start Menu, so I have no idea if I'm the only one with this bug.
Can't be sure, and forgive me if this is already what you mean by disabling "Internet Search", but I suspect you are experiencing this because of Bing's involvement in the start menu search. To fix it, you have to regedit some stuff:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/f09184/how_to_bl...
For me, in Windows 10, I can type "calc" into the search menu and it will recommend and open the calendar app instead of the calculator app 2 out of 5 times.
I will search for an app that I have installed and instead of opening the app it will open a bing search for the app that I have installed.
It's so infuriating that if there were a M$ rep within arm reach I might be tempted to do violence towards them.
There used to be the "Windows tax" that the rest of Microsoft had to pay[1], now I guess that there is the "Rest-of-Microsoft tax" that Windows has to pay.
This is the achilles heel of Microsoft. They will cannibalize a successful part of their business in order to subsidize/bootstrap/launch or even straight-up force the adoption of new service.
Every Windows release gets progressively worse when it comes to Microsoft's integrated services and how obtrusive they are.
The cherry on top is the fact that Windows 10 Pro is $199 and yet you'll still feel like you are flying Sprit airlines when you boot it up.
It's such a shame too. Windows 10 is a great modern OS that everyone expected to last and be built upon, but they just had to go and push out a new "modernized" version and fill it up with ads.
I wonder what you pay to be in the Windows 10 Pro start menu and if it's really worth selling out their professional userbase.
Hasn't this behaviour been the case since at least Windows 98? I'd say Windows has improved a lot since then! Remember Active Desktop, the Channel Bar and MSNBC?
I may have misgivings about certain things in modern desktops but Windows 10, OneDrive, Teams, Edge absolutely deliver a better experience for an average user compared to XP, Microsoft Briefcase, Windows Messenger and IE6 - and XP was one of the good ones!
Apple has done this for a long time too. I used to be an ipod believer, but then I tried to put music onto one using anything other than itunes. Obviously, that was a long time.
But woe be unto the apple user who wants to interoperate with a non-apple thing.
I will begrudgingly use windows 11 at some point because of the games you can play on it. But for anything else I'm so glad Linux and its ecosystem exists, and is only getting more stable lately.
If you're playing games through Steam and haven't checked out Proton in a while, give it another try! The only game I haven't been able to get work on Ubuntu 16/18/20 is Fallout 3.
What ever happened to simple, light weight, free standing OSes? Why does everything have to be networked, with "like share subscribe" buttons, bundled with crap and always online?
It's profitable to do so. If I had to point a finger it is because individuals (and companies, made up of individuals) do not take responsibility for their part in supporting institutions that corrode the commons for personal gain.
If you work for a place that is largely just about shuffling money to yourself by exploiting info asymmetry sabotage it or quit. You most likely have a skillset that can earn you a living wage somewhere that's a net positive for society.
For what it’s worth, the web has figured out ad serving. With stuff like SafeFrame there is decent sandboxing and exception handling. I’ve really not seen any ad serving outside of web and app sdks that doesn’t fail miserably on a technical level.
Has the web figured out ad serving? I was under the impression that malvertising was still very much an issue and even best-in-class security doesn't outright stop things like cryptominers, but instead simply prevents them from consuming too many resources. It's better than wherever MS used here, but I'm definitely not comfortable using the web without an adblocker.
This also creates trust issues in a lot of applications like Point of Sale, Machine Control Devices, Security and Automation Solutions, Motion Control Solutions, Etc.
I miss Balmer a little bit. Developers hate this shit. Have trust that if you support developers, they will advocate your OS.
Actually I think windows became much better for developers after ballmer. VSCode, github, wsl, wsl2... It seems to me that ballmer was much more about windows-only everywhere than developers.
Microsoft stopped using real hardware for Windows Update testing and instead now rely on virtual machines. Ever since then Windows Update has been the most incompetent, half-assed major software project in the world, bar none. Java has a better track record.
It's not so much the fact that an issue occurred, but rather the fact that this type of issue can occur at all. They have coupled nagware into the core of the OS.
Windows is probably the most important piece of software in the entire world, yet Microsoft does not treat it like the most important piece of software in the entire world. They have no sense of responsibility about foisting this garbage onto billions of users.
I've been a lifelong Windows user, but I've come to feel that Windows needs to be completely replaced. We simply cannot trust Microsoft with mission-critical software any longer.
You do realize this issue was on Windows 11, an unreleased operating system correct? I'm not saying Windows 10 hasn't had its share of critical issues, but I can't remember the last time Microsoft released widely a show-stopping bug to the LTS branch of Windows (that is, the branch you'd be using for "mission-critical" applications).
> We simply cannot trust Microsoft with mission-critical software any longer.
We generally don't, most servers and mission critical infrastructure runs Linux or a BSD. What scares me is that many medical devices do run on Windows and that is a future Therac-25 like incident waiting to happen ( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Therac-25 )
> Windows is probably the most important piece of software in the entire world
It's absolutely not. The amount of things that use the Linux kernel for critical network and infrastructure projects, that are mostly hidden to the public... Or that are built on a foundation of something with a clear Linux heritage.
Windows is probably the most visible important piece of software with a GUI.
Microsoft has no threat on the desktop. Apple has a respectable slice but still small compared to Microsoft. With regard to linux... well, if ME, Vista and 8 couldn't bring it into a good position, I don't know what would.
I'm also a big fan of the weather widget they tried to force on everyone's start bar.
I'm also a big fan of how "one drive" is now critical functionality, and windows needs to persistently notify me if I'm not logged into it.
I'm also a big fan of how it's 2021, and their bloated OS still takes like ten minutes to truly boot up all the way.
errantspark|4 years ago
I hate how my relationship with Microsoft/Google etc is essentially one where they're constantly pushing the boundaries of what I'm willing to put up with. It's fucking abusive.
nightski|4 years ago
marcodiego|4 years ago
I'm not included in this "we". And I definitely pay a price for that by sacrificing some convenience. I'm sure the price would be lower if more people were willing to make the same sacrifices.
I can understand most end users being okay with that. Most are not educated to know the problems or alternatives. But developers should consider how contributions in code or money could improve competition and encourage development of better software for everyone.
makeitdouble|4 years ago
Remembering the days of commuting by train, wether the train will come on time or not was a lottery. Traveling by car, accidents, jams, not being able to park etc. are mundane.
Elevator/escalators being in maintenance was also a common sight.
Things being broken feels part of life, and we learn to plan ahead, have alternatives or deal with it when there is nothing to help.
I think computers and remote services entering our everyday lives is part of that.
JohnFen|4 years ago
I'm not OK with it. It's one of the many reasons why I stopped using Windows on my own machines a decade or so ago. Sadly, though, I still have to use it at work, and every workday, I'm reminded why I stopped using Windows.
washadjeffmad|4 years ago
They certainly add the occasional convenience, but it's actually really easy to go a week or three at a time without any of it.
That's always an option, and it's a fairly good one if it's making you feel how you describe.
mistrial9|4 years ago
no, you are not the customer.. executive management, legal and finance are the target customer
branon|4 years ago
swiley|4 years ago
At work all the coorperate crapware makes the machine so unstable anyway Microsoft’s malware would just be one more thing. It’s a broken window (heh) situation.
Haga|4 years ago
[deleted]
sleepytimetea|4 years ago
From the article comes this nugget of knowledge.
quote This problem combines two of latter-day Windows' most annoying tendencies. First, the operating system relentlessly promotes and prioritizes Microsoft's first-party apps and services. Second, the operating system talks to Microsoft's servers in the background to report diagnostic data, fetch advertisements, and even download Windows Store apps without asking. As Aleksandersen correctly points out, these non-essential background processes shouldn't be capable of breaking core functionality. unquote
hulitu|4 years ago
Microsoft has learned nothing from Solar Winds. Time for some popcorn. It's funny how the concept of security has slipped from "no open ports and no default services" to "backdoors (automatic download and install) and telemetry (data exfiltration without permission -also backdoor).
hn_throwaway_99|4 years ago
nomel|4 years ago
haswell|4 years ago
With that said, I get that things go bad in betas - this is the point of a beta release - but this still feels egregiously bad. It also highlights the direction Windows is going, which is cause for criticism even if this worked perfectly.
Saris|4 years ago
thomastjeffery|4 years ago
It's right there.
Sure, it relies on the surrounding context that Windows 11 is in beta, but that's pretty common knowledge.
MrStonedOne|4 years ago
like, even in a buggy system, it shouldn't happened, and there is clearly not enough isolation, something that isn't gonna get fixed in a release candidate and be prepared for this to somehow turn into a ring0 exploit later down the line.
hfktktnfkgk|4 years ago
If the computer starts with a working Internet connection, but then you lose Internet, Start Menu search just stops working during net downtime. Meaning I type some app name like "calc" in the Start Menu search box and nothing appears! Which is absolutely ridiculous, I can't search for locally installed apps, or Windows settings. Even if I disabled Cortana and Internet search in the Statt Menu (or maybe because of it?)
And I failed to Google the problem since all the keywords combinations I tried inevitably lead to some article on how to disable Internet search in the Start Menu, so I have no idea if I'm the only one with this bug.
DixieDev|4 years ago
BizarroLand|4 years ago
I will search for an app that I have installed and instead of opening the app it will open a bing search for the app that I have installed.
It's so infuriating that if there were a M$ rep within arm reach I might be tempted to do violence towards them.
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
flutterwascrap|4 years ago
The start menu web search is actually really good for quickly searching for things.
sitzkrieg|4 years ago
loicd|4 years ago
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/9e09d082-b5d3-11e3-a1bd-00144feab...
jfptech|4 years ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-irs-decided-to-get-to...
whalesalad|4 years ago
Every Windows release gets progressively worse when it comes to Microsoft's integrated services and how obtrusive they are.
The cherry on top is the fact that Windows 10 Pro is $199 and yet you'll still feel like you are flying Sprit airlines when you boot it up.
meibo|4 years ago
I wonder what you pay to be in the Windows 10 Pro start menu and if it's really worth selling out their professional userbase.
cameronh90|4 years ago
I may have misgivings about certain things in modern desktops but Windows 10, OneDrive, Teams, Edge absolutely deliver a better experience for an average user compared to XP, Microsoft Briefcase, Windows Messenger and IE6 - and XP was one of the good ones!
recursive|4 years ago
But woe be unto the apple user who wants to interoperate with a non-apple thing.
thrower123|4 years ago
denimnerd42|4 years ago
nixpulvis|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
jrockway|4 years ago
marcodiego|4 years ago
flutterwascrap|4 years ago
INTPenis|4 years ago
Windows gives me heartburn.
heyitsguay|4 years ago
2OEH8eoCRo0|4 years ago
windex|4 years ago
errantspark|4 years ago
If you work for a place that is largely just about shuffling money to yourself by exploiting info asymmetry sabotage it or quit. You most likely have a skillset that can earn you a living wage somewhere that's a net positive for society.
chrisan|4 years ago
Me.. Vista.. 8.. 11
bloopernova|4 years ago
reilly3000|4 years ago
AlotOfReading|4 years ago
grishka|4 years ago
pcdoodle|4 years ago
I miss Balmer a little bit. Developers hate this shit. Have trust that if you support developers, they will advocate your OS.
marcodiego|4 years ago
Causality1|4 years ago
tempfs|4 years ago
[cue hyper-emotional MSFT spokesperson reaction GIF]
jhanschoo|4 years ago
haolez|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
matheusmoreira|4 years ago
megablast|4 years ago
tonetheman|4 years ago
zz865|4 years ago
achr2|4 years ago
joenathanone|4 years ago
geodel|4 years ago
newbamboo|4 years ago
clavicat|4 years ago
I've been a lifelong Windows user, but I've come to feel that Windows needs to be completely replaced. We simply cannot trust Microsoft with mission-critical software any longer.
dstaley|4 years ago
fabianhjr|4 years ago
We generally don't, most servers and mission critical infrastructure runs Linux or a BSD. What scares me is that many medical devices do run on Windows and that is a future Therac-25 like incident waiting to happen ( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Therac-25 )
walrus01|4 years ago
It's absolutely not. The amount of things that use the Linux kernel for critical network and infrastructure projects, that are mostly hidden to the public... Or that are built on a foundation of something with a clear Linux heritage.
Windows is probably the most visible important piece of software with a GUI.
marcodiego|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
theknocker|4 years ago
loudtieblahblah|4 years ago
[deleted]