Trademark Actions Against the PostgreSQL Community

[robocat]

Here is the full response from Álvaro Hernández at Fundación PostgreSQL:

https://postgresql.fund/blog/postgres-core-team-attacks-post...

as referred to by Álvaro’s (hn user ahachete’s) comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28514523

I am repeating the link because ahachete was getting downvoted here and he also started a new thread instead of continuing this one.

[ahachete]

My bad. Thanks.

[spinax]

This group attempted to register the trademark by extension to the USPTO and was denied for several reasons. Reason #2 for the denial was "Likelihood of Confusion" and points at the existing PostgreSQL trademark on file.

https://www3.wipo.int/madrid/monitor/en/showData.jsp?ID=ROM.... -> Real-time Status and then -> Documents -> United States of America -> (PDF link) https://madrid.wipo.int/documentaccess/documentAccess?docid=...

[throwthere]

Álvaro Hernández here apparently runs a PostgreSQL consulting firm [1] and controls "Fundación PostgreSQL." Would Fundación PostgreSQL have the power to grant exclusive use of the trademark to the consulting firm?

[1] https://ongres.com/about-us/#team

[clra]

Just to play devil's advocate — OOC, what do you think the end game for Álvaro would be under this scenario?

Under the most cynical interpretation, I guess he'd convert Ongres from a Postgres consultancy to a trademark troll and sue other companies who try to use "Postgres"? Maybe, but that's a pretty serious professional change, and seems a little unlikely, especially given that's a considerable chance that he loses the trademark again if it does end up in court.

For my money, the most likely explanation is that it was a land grab move for prestige purposes that went too far. (And one which may backfire as Google ties this press release to his name.)

[ahachete]

Fundación PostgreSQL is a 100% independent non-profit organization not tied to any company or any other institution. Its governing board cannot have more than 40% members of the same company. Please go to https://postgresql.fund/ and read the Statutes.

Actually, a "Fundación" in Spain is an entity specially scrutinized by the Ministry of Justice, and could never to anything like this. It is meant to be for the public good.

Besides, this very same question could have been applied to the Core Team members that are employees of EDB and/or Crunchy, two entities that control the majority of Core. And Core is not even a non-profit, it's nothing (there's no legal entity behind). Or the PostgreSQL Association of Canada, which is an association which could definitely grant exclusive trademark use to a given entity, as it is not scrutinized by a country's Ministry, as a Fundación in Spain is.

[mistrial9]

Perhaps for legal reasons it is important to show willingness to negotiate .. but really, a land-grab like this gets "we hope we can be friends" response ?

"The PostgreSQL Core Team and PGCAC still hope for an amicable resolution" ..

[clra]

It's worth noting that (from the article) the offender in this case isn't some gigantic organization like Amazon — it's basically one guy, and one who considers himself to be a member in good standing whose part of the Postgres community.

I'd hazard a guess that by taking this public, the Postgres team is trying to create some pressure on him through public opinion in the hope that he sees reason and it doesn't have to become a long and arduous legal battle which benefits no one.

And it really shouldn't have to. It's not clear what Álvaro's actual motives are in trying to usurp the Postgres trademark — it could be some cynical profiteering thing, but hopefully it was just some momentary hubris that can still be walked back and resolved amicably.

[Loic]

It shows the benevolence of the PostgreSQL Community(TM) ;-)

I think this is the morally right way to handle the issue. This way they also accumulate good-will if they need to take stronger legal actions. I like it.

[price]

That's not an offer to give ground to them in any material way. The next sentence says "the PostgreSQL Core Team and PGCAC will pursue all options until" the land-grabbing group surrenders all their land-grab claims.

That's just saying: we hope they'll recognize that what they're doing doesn't make any sense, and give it up rather than pursue a fight all the way through the legal process.

[lm2s]

I think it just means "outside of court".

[foobarbazetc]

There’s literally no way any of the filed trademarks will be granted if the core team files opposition.

Don’t waste your time “negotiating”.

[foobarbazetc]

Also, the core team should use their Canadian (or whichever country they have earliest file date in) to file for a WIPO/Madrid mark.

[ryanisnan]

I hope you're right. This fella seems a bit like a trademark troll.

[mjw1007]

Are OnGres or Álvaro Hernández active in PostgreSQL development, or otherwise active in the community?

Or have they appeared out of nowhere?

[vickychijwani]

I believe this is their HN profile, see for yourself (as indicated by comments from them in this thread): https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ahachete

Personally I'm interested in hearing more from them, as they don't fit the "trademark troll" description that commenters seem to be taking for granted here. Seeing some interesting discussion dynamics at play.

[shkkmo]

Fundación PostgreSQL is a relatively new non-profit that has run two conferences in Ibiza (in 2019 and 2020) and is planning a third in 2022.

The only organizers listed for conferences are all members of Álvaro's OnGres consulting company. There don't appear to be any details on the number of attendees or on who gave what talks.

[knorker]

I read the post. I read the rebuttal.

Clearly this guy is an asshole. He may (may) not be a trademark troll, but this is a self-serving asshole move, landgrabbing to promote his business.

You know what, maybe he has honest intentions. He's still an asshole.

This. Is. Not. Yours. You don't own it. You have applied for paperwork to own it. Incredible asshole move.

Your theory of distributed ownership doesn't matter, because IT'S NOT YOURS TO OWN.

[matsemann]

What's the end game of the Spanish org? What are they trying to achieve with this?

[happy_path]

I'm afraid that It's just a guy with grandeur delusions.

[gilrain]

A narcissist is equating himself with a community he fancies and is attempting to force it under his control.

[aunty_helen]

Getting a foothold. Spain doesn’t operate on the same level as other European countries when it comes to some things, banking and trademarks would be two good examples of this.

[lobo_tuerto]

Looks like he likes to write articles and has been featured by some Postgres related Twitter accounts like PostgresWeekly (https://twitter.com/PostgresWeekly).

This is the guy in question: https://twitter.com/ahachete

[CRConrad]

From https://www.postgresql.org/about/news/trademark-actions-agai... :

> In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly

Idunno, from reading both sides of this it doesn't much feel that way.

[remram]

Why does this happen? What's the point of trademarks existing at all, if you have to fight for it every time someone makes a claim to it? What's the point of registration if the same trademark will be awarded again without regard to existing trademarks in the same region?

[jpalomaki]

In general you are responsible for defending your trademarks and taking action if they are violated.

In non-obvious cases this makes perfect sense. There’s plenty of abandoned trademarks. This system means that you can’t just take old and forgotten trademark and start suddenly demanding money from companies that (unknowingly) infringe it.

I believe this is also the reason why big name brands sometimes go after individuals for trademark violations.

[ahachete]

We (Fundación PostgreSQL) posted a new post titled "Respecting the majority, questioning the status quo as a minority": https://postgresql.fund/blog/respecting-majority-questioning...

[sigzero]

You can question it all you want. You can't file a trademark for something that is already trademarked. EOS

[sigzero]

Fundación PostgreSQL is just wrong for trying this. Shame on them.

[ahachete]

Leaving aside considerations about my person, here's Fundación PostgreSQL's response and HN discussion thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28514422

[tempest_]

In the spirit of the open source movement, the PostgreSQL community has always tried to operate transparently and fairly, and provide resources for people to adopt, use, and promote PostgreSQL. We continuously look to improve and are very much open to feedback (look no further than the discussions on our mailing lists)!

Perhaps I am just a little too young but I do find the use of mailing lists in some of the older open source projects to be a bit cumbersome in 2021. I know there are advantages to them and their semi decentralized nature is a feature but I sure do find them difficult to interact with.

Regardless of the above I do hope they come to a amicable solution and it is interesting to me to find that Postgres trade marks are held by a Canadian entity.

[anonymousisme]

Linux has had the LKML for almost three decades. It still works well for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_mailing_list

[mjw1007]

It's a shame the PostgreSQL lists dropped off Gmane. That used to be a decent way to read them.

[jimhefferon]

Cumbersone in what way?

[kylecordes]

I wonder why the pre-existing core PostgreSQL organization (not super-clear to me which this is) did already have these trademarks in the top handful of countries/jurisdictions. Rather than wait for someone else to try and then get in a potentially expensive fight. PostgreSQL has been around for 25 years, there has been ample time to figure that out, right?

[Macha]

Sounds like in the US at least they _do_ have trademarks, the other organisations filing was declined by the PTO because of the existing mark, see the documents linked in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28513942

[sp8962]

Likely because it is tedious (think watching paint dry) and expensive. And except if you take a shotgun approach to the service/goods classes you register in, you are still going to have exposure (in the US you need to provide proof of use down the road so its a non.starter there).