This reminds me of something that happened when I was just a bit younger... My girlfriend and I were graduating from pharmacy school and she was applying for residency positions (yes, they have those for pharmacists). Well, she found out she got the one she really wanted and so that night we went out to a nice dinner to celebrate. We did it up like you would expect a happy couple to - nice bottle of wine, share an appetizer and dessert, etc. We were still living on loans at the time and so in my head I was keeping track of about how much the meal was going to run me at the end of the night (for better or worse - keep in mind we were in college at the time). We had easily cleared a hundred bucks (quite the meal for college students who usually eat $7 sandwiches or more likely cook for themselves!), and when it was time for the bill, our waitress told us "The couple that was sitting over there paid for it."
!
You wanna talk about made our day? Try made our week. We had seen the older couple earlier, but we didn't know them, and they were gone by the time we got our bill. We couldn't even thank them, and we were just so... shocked. Since then, whenever we go out for a nice meal, I look for a young couple who looks happy and in love, just waiting to return that favor.
C.S. Lewis described altruism in one of his apologist books as a "good infection" - kindness that spreads uncontrollably. I can't do anything but agree.
I once crossed the Bay Bridge from Oakland to San Francisco and when I hit the pay toll, the attendent told me the driver in front had paid for me. This has happened more than once.
So every once in a while, I'll do the same for a driver behind me - especially if they were generous enough to have let me merge into their lane (but usually, just as a random kind gesture).
Thank you so much for sharing your story – it really made my day. "Kindness that spreads uncontrollably" perfectly sums up my highest hopes for this experiment.
I have heard similar restaurant stories happen to some of my friends. Jonathan's card is also a good idea.
However, I can't help wondering that with all this technology we are ending up in a situation where the Haves help the Haves and they all feel better for a little while. What can we do to make it easy to help the really needy? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just as easily drop $10 to help someone eat a few meals a day? I am aware of all the real world problems and constraints, but I hope these examples inspire some of HN community to build stuff that will help those that really need it.
There are so many little things you can do that can make someone else's day. Here's another one: cook a meal for any new parents you may happen to know. Nothing fancy, just something you can drop off that they can easily reheat and maybe lasts a couple days.
Back in the days of pay phones, I had a friend who'd put quarters in the return slot. While it is a very small gesture, it moved me. Felt like sharing this.
Things like this are just apt for abuse. While in real life when this happens, we get a small connection with the person (they live near me / they also were getting coffee), on the internet, people only see a free gift card that automatically refills itself, and not the people that paid for it. When you are playing with other peoples money, it's hard to be frugal.
It looks like things have died down. The steady state seems to be one where the balance is low and the transactions are small: http://dpaste.com/589113/.
That would imply that the card is currently being used as intended.
Whenever I go through a toll bridge, I frequently pay the toll of the person behind me. I've sometimes wondered if it propagates backward at all. For the Starbucks card, I would love to live in a society where this could work. Unfortunately it's one of those things where one anonymous bad egg will ruin (i.e., drain the account) for everyone else. Some way to restrict it to a community with less anonymity would help (i.e., go to a web site, auth through hacker news, and then you get the image -- then it is tied to your HN identity).
My wife works at a Starbucks with a drive-thru and says that the chain reaction frequently persists until the line is emptied; the longest such chain was around twenty cars.
> I frequently pay the toll of the person behind me
In what country/state/city? Is that legal? In most (all?) US cities, it is illegal to fill other peoples' parking meters because that robs the city of fines. But maybe it's not a concern for tolls?
> I've sometimes wondered if it propagates backward at all.
At most, it would only reach exactly the car behind you. If that driver decides to pay the toll anyway (or the attendant secretly pockets the additional payment), the extra payment would be surely be swallowed.
I've always seen karma as more of a net effect than a mystical thing.
In practical terms, paying the toll of the person behind you may not directly propagate to tolls being paid. However, the recipients are going to be just that much happier or less stressed out, and are likely going to pass that mood along to the people they interact with in some way.
It may only make a small, localized part of the world a tiny fraction of a percent better, but it adds up.
I think it was Steven Covey who wrote somewhere about the trim tab on a giant ship's rudder. It's expensive/hard to build a motor that can turn the rudders on a giant container ship directly while it's in motion, but all it takes is a little mini-flap on the edge of the giant rudder.
Thanks for your input, and perhaps for paying my bridge toll ;)
You wrote:
"Unfortunately it's one of those things where one anonymous bad egg will ruin it for everyone else. Some way to restrict it to a community with less anonymity would help."
I see where you're coming from, but I believe that A) nobody (with the possible exception of Starbucks) can ruin this, and B) the solution to the bad egg problem is to be more open, not more controlling.
For a more practical membership-share or coffee-club type of set up restrictions make sense...but in this case I think the anonymity of it all is the interesting part — seeing the behavior patterns emerge naturally and anonymously will be very telling.
Hmm, I think posting the value of the card affects the data points. I understand why it needs to be done, but my thinking is that if nobody knows how much is on there it leaves it less prone to outright abuse.
If the card suddenly gets a $100 recharge I'm sure it will be abused a lot more. Maybe that's part of the experiment, but I'd like to see what people do in general without that knowledge.
EDIT: or maybe even just a "this card has more than <insert cost of minimum item>" so that people know it can be used, but not how many times.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit. One the one hand, last week some jerk saw a $50 balance and spent the whole thing in one shot.
On the other hand, people need to know when there is money on the card if they are thinking about walking down to a sbux to get a coffee.
I might try the "there's more than $10 on the card right now". I've also experimented with delaying the reloaded messages, and doling out the money more directly by asking who wants a coffee.
Folks who respond get the update if they're quick. We'll see what happens, but I believe that there is a sustainable way to handle it.
I used to work at Chick-fil=A before I started working for a startup and we would get people that would start paying for the people behind them in the drive thru and the next car would pull up and we'd say: Hey you had a...(whatever they had)..and the car behind you has already taken care of it. They would look shocked, smile, and say well we will get the car behind us. And this would go on for 10 or more cars.
It was really awesome. We also had people come through and ask for food for a homeless guy that sits on the off ramp on our interstate exit, and Chick-fil-A would give them food to take to the homeless guy and I'm sure many more situations occur all across the country that make peoples lives better. I think there is a thread of hope in humanity.
I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here and kind of not: How can you justify spending $n to buy coffee for someone with a smartphone instead of donating $n to someone with fewer resources and greater needs?
Fair point. My goal is to figure out the dynamics of social giving in this fashion and create a similar sustainable model around items that are less "luxury" than coffee.
For example, I can imaging people paying for other people's groceries or medicine in a similar manner. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems worth trying.
Taking that logic to its natural end - I should be living a meager existence, eating and buying only what is necessary for my own continued survival, and donating any surplus to people who don't even have subsistence level living standards (and there are a lot of said people).
But do I really need to explain why that is undesirable, or why most people in the world don't do this?
You could say that about almost anything. "How can you justify commenting on HN, when the money earned in the equivalent amount of time wasted here could save n Nigerians from starvation?" You can't, not really. But Jonathan's card still is one of the more ethical ways of spending money, so I'm all for it.
Although the bit about paying it forward and social sharing is a great idea on its own, I think I'm a tad more excited that he actually made an API for this. That's seriously awesome.
Yes, unfortunately I do get the rewards. I get a free coffee for every 15 purchased. I figured that the free coffees would accrue to the card itself and therefore every 16th person would get a free coffee. As it turns out, sbux mails free coffee coupons to me:
I'm not sure how to redistribute them fairly, but I was thinking that I could at least pass them out at my local store. However, doing so is expressly forbidden and my name is on the postcards.
There's a cafe under the castle in Prague where for a decade or more, patrons can buy an extra coffee for someone else. A physical cup goes up on a line above the counter. Others, usually students, will come in, see the cups, and ask for the free coffee. A Czech architecture student told me she never paid for a coffee -- just took one from those donated. When I would visit the cafe, I would make sure to add another cup or two to the line.
Jonathan's Card didn't seems to work, and it makes me think (unsurprisingly) that what works at local levels as this cafe in Prague, can't work in the Extremistan that is the entire global community.
We're so used to all the benefits of this new, suddenly-made-close world: play poker with a guy in Singapore one moment, buy an antique off an old woman in Portugal the next, without moving anything but the mouse; that we forget the beauty and function that the local still provides.
Such a simple and wonderful idea; it brightened my Sunday. (Edit: I wonder how soon it will take SBX to decide that this is a vulnerability in their mobile app and change something that will break this.)
It really doesn't seem that much of a "vulnerability" actually. The only way to get a picture is if you get ahold of the victim's phone, or they willingly give it up to you.
If you get ahold of the victim's phone, the victim has bigger problems (NFC, e-mail, saved passwords, etc.).
The twitter feed updates once per minute, so if the $100 is spent by a bunch of people w/in that period of time, it will just show -$100. Should be checkable by Jonathan?
"Jonathan's Card is an experiment in social sharing of physical goods using digital currency on mobile phones."
What, exactly, is the hypothesis? While this _seems_ cool, I really don't understand what he's setting out to prove, that we don't already know: This will work until the number of people who abuse it grows to a certain point, after which everyone will loose faith, and nobody will contribute more funds.
[Ha. I just noticed the posts describing how this is being hacked.]
This is a really cool experiment. Coffee seems like the perfect use case since it's awkward to exploit, in that you're not going to buy $100 worth of coffee, just because the card has $100 on it. But what about other physical goods, like Barnes & Nobles, HEB, Home Depot?
Here is a heat map of the location of @ mentions for @jonathanscard, which for the most part is the location of those that have added funds to the card.
[+] [-] brianleb|14 years ago|reply
!
You wanna talk about made our day? Try made our week. We had seen the older couple earlier, but we didn't know them, and they were gone by the time we got our bill. We couldn't even thank them, and we were just so... shocked. Since then, whenever we go out for a nice meal, I look for a young couple who looks happy and in love, just waiting to return that favor.
C.S. Lewis described altruism in one of his apologist books as a "good infection" - kindness that spreads uncontrollably. I can't do anything but agree.
[+] [-] mikeleeorg|14 years ago|reply
So every once in a while, I'll do the same for a driver behind me - especially if they were generous enough to have let me merge into their lane (but usually, just as a random kind gesture).
Good infections rock.
[+] [-] jonathanstark|14 years ago|reply
Thank you so much for sharing your story – it really made my day. "Kindness that spreads uncontrollably" perfectly sums up my highest hopes for this experiment.
Best, j
[+] [-] YetAnotherAlias|14 years ago|reply
However, I can't help wondering that with all this technology we are ending up in a situation where the Haves help the Haves and they all feel better for a little while. What can we do to make it easy to help the really needy? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just as easily drop $10 to help someone eat a few meals a day? I am aware of all the real world problems and constraints, but I hope these examples inspire some of HN community to build stuff that will help those that really need it.
[+] [-] js2|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iqster|14 years ago|reply
Back in the days of pay phones, I had a friend who'd put quarters in the return slot. While it is a very small gesture, it moved me. Felt like sharing this.
[+] [-] rakkhi|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eggbrain|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sam_Odio|14 years ago|reply
That would imply that the card is currently being used as intended.
[+] [-] hammock|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pangram|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _285ng|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snprbob86|14 years ago|reply
In what country/state/city? Is that legal? In most (all?) US cities, it is illegal to fill other peoples' parking meters because that robs the city of fines. But maybe it's not a concern for tolls?
> I've sometimes wondered if it propagates backward at all.
At most, it would only reach exactly the car behind you. If that driver decides to pay the toll anyway (or the attendant secretly pockets the additional payment), the extra payment would be surely be swallowed.
[+] [-] jarin|14 years ago|reply
In practical terms, paying the toll of the person behind you may not directly propagate to tolls being paid. However, the recipients are going to be just that much happier or less stressed out, and are likely going to pass that mood along to the people they interact with in some way.
It may only make a small, localized part of the world a tiny fraction of a percent better, but it adds up.
I think it was Steven Covey who wrote somewhere about the trim tab on a giant ship's rudder. It's expensive/hard to build a motor that can turn the rudders on a giant container ship directly while it's in motion, but all it takes is a little mini-flap on the edge of the giant rudder.
[+] [-] jonathanstark|14 years ago|reply
Thanks for your input, and perhaps for paying my bridge toll ;)
You wrote:
"Unfortunately it's one of those things where one anonymous bad egg will ruin it for everyone else. Some way to restrict it to a community with less anonymity would help."
I see where you're coming from, but I believe that A) nobody (with the possible exception of Starbucks) can ruin this, and B) the solution to the bad egg problem is to be more open, not more controlling.
Stay tuned... j
[+] [-] jessevondoom|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ookblah|14 years ago|reply
If the card suddenly gets a $100 recharge I'm sure it will be abused a lot more. Maybe that's part of the experiment, but I'd like to see what people do in general without that knowledge.
EDIT: or maybe even just a "this card has more than <insert cost of minimum item>" so that people know it can be used, but not how many times.
[+] [-] jonathanstark|14 years ago|reply
I've been thinking about this quite a bit. One the one hand, last week some jerk saw a $50 balance and spent the whole thing in one shot.
On the other hand, people need to know when there is money on the card if they are thinking about walking down to a sbux to get a coffee.
I might try the "there's more than $10 on the card right now". I've also experimented with delaying the reloaded messages, and doling out the money more directly by asking who wants a coffee.
Folks who respond get the update if they're quick. We'll see what happens, but I believe that there is a sustainable way to handle it.
Cheers! j
[+] [-] danielodio|14 years ago|reply
Here's the conf: http://drod.io/2R3o0I2a3R3n3S2L1J2N
[+] [-] dmn001|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hassanhassan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] funthree|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshmlewis|14 years ago|reply
It was really awesome. We also had people come through and ask for food for a homeless guy that sits on the off ramp on our interstate exit, and Chick-fil-A would give them food to take to the homeless guy and I'm sure many more situations occur all across the country that make peoples lives better. I think there is a thread of hope in humanity.
[+] [-] funthree|14 years ago|reply
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034749918897766...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034674284272844...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034195955777536...
Edit: Any ideas?
Edit: It just happened again...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10035604975584460...
Edit: More...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036286052539596...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036486417377689...
http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036536246547660...
[+] [-] eggbrain|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hassanhassan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gabrielroth|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonathanstark|14 years ago|reply
Fair point. My goal is to figure out the dynamics of social giving in this fashion and create a similar sustainable model around items that are less "luxury" than coffee.
For example, I can imaging people paying for other people's groceries or medicine in a similar manner. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems worth trying.
Best, j
[+] [-] potatolicious|14 years ago|reply
But do I really need to explain why that is undesirable, or why most people in the world don't do this?
[+] [-] div|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Daniel14|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danielodio|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] michaelschade|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wallflower|14 years ago|reply
Well, Jonathan may get the Rewards so it is not completely altruistic.
A real-time map of where transactions have been made ala http://twittervision.com might be interesting if this card goes viral
https://www.starbucks.com/card/rewards
[+] [-] jonathanstark|14 years ago|reply
Yes, unfortunately I do get the rewards. I get a free coffee for every 15 purchased. I figured that the free coffees would accrue to the card itself and therefore every 16th person would get a free coffee. As it turns out, sbux mails free coffee coupons to me:
http://yfrog.com/keup3hxj
I'm not sure how to redistribute them fairly, but I was thinking that I could at least pass them out at my local store. However, doing so is expressly forbidden and my name is on the postcards.
Thoughts? j
[+] [-] wallflower|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SoftwareMaven|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] david927|14 years ago|reply
Jonathan's Card didn't seems to work, and it makes me think (unsurprisingly) that what works at local levels as this cafe in Prague, can't work in the Extremistan that is the entire global community.
We're so used to all the benefits of this new, suddenly-made-close world: play poker with a guy in Singapore one moment, buy an antique off an old woman in Portugal the next, without moving anything but the mouse; that we forget the beauty and function that the local still provides.
[+] [-] ben1040|14 years ago|reply
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004084452_w...
[+] [-] coverband|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dvdhsu|14 years ago|reply
If you get ahold of the victim's phone, the victim has bigger problems (NFC, e-mail, saved passwords, etc.).
[+] [-] rglover|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emeltzer|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jt2190|14 years ago|reply
What, exactly, is the hypothesis? While this _seems_ cool, I really don't understand what he's setting out to prove, that we don't already know: This will work until the number of people who abuse it grows to a certain point, after which everyone will loose faith, and nobody will contribute more funds.
[Ha. I just noticed the posts describing how this is being hacked.]
[+] [-] dustyreagan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redthrowaway|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] russjhammond|14 years ago|reply
http://www.myheatmap.com/maps/b2Pqu0EGSgs=