That's excellent advice that many have learned the hard way...
Honestly even as a non-manager it's a very bad idea. When I was a junior one of my colleagues was called to the manager's office. I assumed it would be for some mundane project scheduling or whatever, so I jokingly said "you're getting fired" as he was going there. And he was.
This is one of these memories that come back to haunt you late at night when you're trying to sleep...
3 years ago, I had a talk with the Chief Senior Physician of the hospital my mum was treated. She was terminally ill, she was fightiing for weeks, but there was no hope left. So it was decided to end all life support measures.
When I went back to my car, where my then-minor sister was waiting for news, I said: "Sie hat es geschafft.", which literally means "She made it" in German - however, I meant it in the meaning of "She doesn't have to suffer any more.", which is also a valid meaning. After seeing the rlief on my sister's face, I immediately apologized and explained the situation.
Ever since this day, I a) think twice before I speak and b) try to avoid double meanings as much as I can. It still haunts me, though she's fine with it.
I once had a friend uncharacteristically not respond to a couple texts confirming plans we'd made. I eventually sent "Are you alive?" and got a call back from the hiking companion who had watched her fall to her death two days earlier.
Off topic. Do firings come out of the blue though? I was a VP for a while (not anymore) - but when the person I had to fire was about to get fired, they KNEW it as soon as the door opened. Firing someone is the worst experience ever - the only reason I had to fire someone was because WE screwed up in the interview process.
I did the same thing to someone after they just joined, figured it'd just come off as a joke and no harm would be done. Pretty soon in the following conversation I got the nagging feeling that it didn't come off as a joke.
I still feel terrible about that to the day, and that guy's been working here for years now.
I remember the doctor called and wanted to speak to my ex wife and I jokingly talled her she got cancer. She didn't though, it was Aids. To this day I think my joke softened the blow for her a bit.
Used to work sales for a large corporation. One of the fun things the women did on our team was decorate our cubicles when people had birthdays. One morning they were laughing and having a good time decorating of the sales guys cubicle.
Their manager walked by and said rather flippantly, "I wouldn't bother doing that, he won't be here to enjoy it."
Haha, I did this to myself once. I had no idea, and seemingly no one I worked with had any idea, and we laughed a bit as I got up to "go get fired" at my meeting. Then I came back and had to explain that I was actually just fired.
Luckily I haven't been fired since, but that "joke" stuck with me.
It’s usually security policy to clean whiteboards after meetings.
Many years ago it got to be a standing joke in various places I’ve worked that if someone actually left a digram on a whiteboard, eg some bit of server infrastructure or UML, you’d add extra arrows pointing to “DOWNSIZING” or “EMPLOYEE REDUNDANCIES” bubbles.
Then one day I explained the old joke at a new gig and everyone in the room got really serious for a moment.
They told me that 6 monthish prior someone from senior management had left plans for the last downsizing round on a whiteboard and lots of people had seen it…
Yeah, that is pretty rough. I've been in similar situations and I tell my self to just try to be a better person today than to dwell over the past. I can't change what I've done but try to do better.
As a more general advice - person in position of power should not joke about causing harm. Whether is is manager joking about firing employee, stronger person joking about beating up weaker one or parent joking about throwing child out of house when they misbehave. This kind of humor works only when it is coming from weaker position and even then only in certain situations.
Good general advice. Had a manager who would say to folks “you won’t get fired for xyz”. Even the mention of firing made the environment unpleasant. Now I fully appreciate how words can have a profound effect on morale.
The weird thing is, in my experience, a lot of managers don't see themselves as having power, or at least, aren't willing to use that power for others. Bad managers who don't go to bat for their reports, who joke about firing you while forgetting they can actually fire you, not helping advance your career in any way, etc.
However a slight variation about joking with kids that I find does work surprisingly well is the totally exhagerrated consequences. But it really has to be totally over the top and utterly unbelievable, the sillier the better. It simultaneously breaks the impending mood of conflict, makes them laugh, while somehow actually motivating them to do what they are resisting. We all know it won't be the real consequence of them (not) doing whatever, but it still seems to work. It's weird. Doesn't always work of course (nothing with kids ever does), but a variation on the theme has frequently helped.
"Causing harm" is the kind of vaguery that makes people walk on eggshells when taken seriously enough. I agree there are things that managers shouldn't joke about, but I do think it's on us to be specific about topics and scenarios.
In school, we had a teacher who as famous for making jokes at the expense of others. One time during chemistry in front of the class he said to his most-liked pupil: "We have enough poison here to kill everyone in class. Well, except me and you, of course."
And that was the time the class decided to go to our head teacher and tell her that his jokes were not funny at all and she reported back that our chemistry teacher was surprised about how someone did not appreciate his brand of humor.
Yep, position of power implies relationship structure that brings completely different social dynamics than the equals. That’s also the exact same dynamics that makes something abuse or not abuse. The recent “Me too” movement was essentially based on it. I’m sure there could be another kind of “Me too” movement that’s not sexual but business or career centric.
No one told me this prior to becoming a manager, and I did make this mistake once and immediately regretted it.
It seems like obvious advice, but the circumstances where this sort of thing could happen are described very well in the article.
I revert to humour in awkward situations, like a lot of people, but I quickly realised that there are some things that you can’t joke about when in this position.
Thankfully I don’t think the team member took any offence by it (although how would I know) - we had a good rapport and relationship, but I immediately realised my “joke” could be taken so many different (wrong) ways that I made a conscious decision to be much more careful after that.
Like many things in life, it seems blindingly obvious in retrospect but not necessarily when you’re caught up in the moment.
Then there are those bosses who do it on purpose, to just screw with you. I had one boss who was upset because we both submitted to present at a conference (VMworld) and I was selected, but he wasn't. He then declined the business paying for the trip, so I paid my own way, then he arrived at the conference, slipped past the guard the day I was presenting (I was first panel of the day and did a dry-run) and stepped up to a group of us talking after I had just finished and said, casually, "whew, what a long call I just got off, we were talking about your replacement."
I remember looking at the VMware guys I was with and their eyes were bugging out like WTF, did he really just say that. By this point I was used to his crap and kindof let it roll off me. After we got away one of them asked if I was okay and said screw the presentation--he'd go introduce me to some people :D I talked him through it and did the presentation anyway.
This boss was definitely toxic--he relished psych games, and at one point handed out copies of "The art of War" so we could all "brush up"--and as much fun as I was having working there (not because of this stuff), I finally did leave within a few months on my own terms. Never have I worked with anybody as toxic as that.
(After I returned I asked the CTO about the call the boss was on where they "talked about my replacement." The CTO scoffed at it, and said that call had no such conversation.
In followups my boss backpedalled and said he just meant because I was going away for a few weeks and who would cover me during that time--of course that's what he meant).
Likewise, don't attempt to comfort people about their position when you don't actually know how likely they are to get fired.
I knew someone who had done this and the person was fired that day.
I'm sure he believed it, too, or he wouldn't have said it. But he apparently didn't have all the facts. He regrets saying it and told the story a few times while I worked with him.
On the flip side, I worked with someone who was doing poorly in their job (after having done better in the past) and tried to help them keep their job.
The longer it stretched on, the worse they did.
In the end, they lost their job and I found out afterwards that they thought we were attempting to gather enough data to fire them, when in reality there were a few of us that were actively trying to help them keep it, and even management didn't want them gone, they just wanted them to perform adequately again.
I often wonder if I should have been clear about the risk to their job, or if that would just have been seen as a threat instead. At this point, I don't think I'd do anything different.
Yep - a guy I shared an office with walked in and told me he had been wondering if he was going to get laid off. I comforted him and told him that I couldn't see why there would be lay-offs - we had tons of work to do.
He picked up everything off his desk and walked out. Turned out he had just been fired, but he had been told it was a lay off to soften the blow. I actually thought he should be fired but the problem had been going on so long and it was the kind of place that just never fired people, so I didn't even consider that possibility.
11 years ago, I think - I still wish I hadn't said anything. But I also wish he had been given candid feedback by his manager much earlier.
Don't Joke <about most things> is a good advice in general for management and leadership. You have to assume people will read into most of the stuff you say as you are their primary information conduit for anything related to workplace.
It's weird, I have worked at many organisations - and at almost none of them did my manager have the ability to fire me. Is this an American thing?
In most of these orgs, getting rid of someone is kind of hard work, usually involving a lot of HR. A manager would have much more luck getting you moved to a different team.
Ok, that's nice. I'm sure some people do it carelessly but lets at least be honest and acknowledge that many also do it deliberately. It's an easy and cowardly way to assert your dominance. If you get called out on it, and you won't, you'll just say you were joking. When you're not called out on it it's a easy way of reminding people that you can do it. Maybe not now but maybe in the future when you're not feeling so generous.
I remember a job interview where the interviewer launched into a story, unprompted, about firing someone. Didn't express any regrets or sympathy for the person. That interview was over that second. Maybe that person was the most deserving person in the world to get fired but just the fact that he thought it was something to be discussed with an interviewee spoke volumes.
Extremely important advice. Add to that: push upper management for change details, keep timelines and punctuality, define delivery, be up front on status and results, go home at a reasonable hour, take people to lunch or otherwise spend time with them, make your team appointments your number one priority, and praise publicly/coach privately.
Here's another one that's a bit less obvious: anytime you're scheduling a 1x1 with a report, ALWAYS mention the reason for the meeting. You might think it's obvious or that it's just a normal meeting, but you have no idea how the other person will take it.
I think this falls under the general "don't threaten the relationship." Whether it's joking about firing, saying "maybe we should just get divorced", joking a child was an accident etc. When things get stressful people often reevaluate comments in their new emotional state and what might have felt like a joke could become a threat. Subsequently instead of working to solve a problem for a situation they trust, people often work for self preservation.
I run a Mastodon instance and every time one of my users posts a really, really terrible pun there is such a strong temptation to say "oh god that was terrible, you're banned forever". And then I stop and think about how a few of the people on there have some really bad social anxiety, and I find some other way to say "holy shit that was a terrible pun, well done".
It's a similar thing, I think. I'm unexpectedly in a position of power over my friends and I want to efuse it with jokes.
I feel that it's sad this even needs to be advice. I'd think it should be obvious, but we miss "obvious" things, every day.
Management is, way too often, treated as a "privilege," and a "reward."
I was a manager for 25 years. I never felt "privileged," and I considered it a "curse."
I hated every damn minute of it, but I kept doing it, because I am a control freak, and couldn't trust anyone else to do a better job. I also avoided getting promoted, because I didn't want to leave my team in the hands of the other managers I knew.
Most of my peers and superiors provided object examples in what not to do.
My advice for new programmers: Don't use expletives in any log message, debugging alert, or even code comments. The chance of this coming back to haunt you is not worth the momentary satisfaction it gives you.
Agreed. I once worked for a company that built custom e-commerce sites. One of our clients decided to bring development in-house, and wanted the codebase for their site. I had to go through every source file line by line to remove all of the expletives the core team had put in the comments before handing over the code.
Darn, I made the mistake once and never again, the face of the CEO pointing at the word "PENIS" on the site was a good enough lesson I guess.
I guess it was as lucky as you can get since we had made the joke together and I just forgot to delete it. Still remember the code, I thought I was sooooo funny. I apologize on behalf of my former self.
I always laugh when I remember my old manager calling a meeting where he talked about our product not being profitable and us needing to pull out all the stops to fix that, including reducing the headcount, and then being shocked and angry that someone had started a "rumor" about layoffs. He had meant through attrition, but it was a misinterpretation that I think should have been predictable in context. If you're in a position of authority you have to be careful about what messages you send.
It is a very good advice. The general advice is really to be professional in the workplace. Don't make a joke, unless it is during lunch and you are trying to tell a real joke.
Don't use silly variable names, or add jokes or profanity into your code or documentation.
Sooner or later it will surface and there is NOTHING quite as embarrasing as showing a unknown third party or a manager something on the screen that screams immaturity.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have fun at the workplace, because you should. Also it makes life at work much easier if everyone has fun- just be professional and respectful.
Also, sometimes you do slip up. Don't be afraid to apologize. It is ok. It is human to make errors, but learn from your mistakes and move on.
Isn't joking about firing people (not to mention actually firing people) one of the most common ways that managers assert and reinforce their dominance in the social status hierarchy?
In most companies, managers' greatest power (besides controlling subordinates' movement, actions, privacy, and access to amenities such as light, heating/cooling, quiet environments, restrooms, etc.) is their largely unlimited power to simultaneously deprive subordinates of their livelihood, health insurance, social relationships, and social status.
Ed Zitron suggests that maintaining this social dominance and control over subordinates is typically the underlying (and primary) reason why managers want employees "back in the office":
Something I learned the hard way at the student newspaper is that the word "Fired" has some very strong psychological implications in US English -- it implies someone no longer has a job because of something bad they did.
We got some strong negative feedback about a headline saying that people had been "fired" when the story was that a kind of lab technology had become obsolete and a number of lab technicians had been laid off. I had signed off on the headline, was responsible, and have never forgotten.
People take their jobs very seriously; it's the thing we choose to do -- or have to do -- instead of being with our families and friends. And "fired" is one of the strongest words in our language. We need to be sure we understand what we are doing when we use it.
My initial reaction was that's so obvious that surely it doesn't need to be said. Then I remembered the first two people I ever hired (who were friends) and that I made that joke within the first two weeks.
Nothing bad came of it, but it does show how easy it is to do.
[+] [-] simias|4 years ago|reply
Honestly even as a non-manager it's a very bad idea. When I was a junior one of my colleagues was called to the manager's office. I assumed it would be for some mundane project scheduling or whatever, so I jokingly said "you're getting fired" as he was going there. And he was.
This is one of these memories that come back to haunt you late at night when you're trying to sleep...
[+] [-] MrGilbert|4 years ago|reply
When I went back to my car, where my then-minor sister was waiting for news, I said: "Sie hat es geschafft.", which literally means "She made it" in German - however, I meant it in the meaning of "She doesn't have to suffer any more.", which is also a valid meaning. After seeing the rlief on my sister's face, I immediately apologized and explained the situation.
Ever since this day, I a) think twice before I speak and b) try to avoid double meanings as much as I can. It still haunts me, though she's fine with it.
[+] [-] mrosett|4 years ago|reply
That one gives me nightmares.
[+] [-] ransom1538|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] etblg|4 years ago|reply
I still feel terrible about that to the day, and that guy's been working here for years now.
[+] [-] joelbluminator|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] at-fates-hands|4 years ago|reply
Their manager walked by and said rather flippantly, "I wouldn't bother doing that, he won't be here to enjoy it."
[+] [-] steve_adams_86|4 years ago|reply
Luckily I haven't been fired since, but that "joke" stuck with me.
[+] [-] Lio|4 years ago|reply
Many years ago it got to be a standing joke in various places I’ve worked that if someone actually left a digram on a whiteboard, eg some bit of server infrastructure or UML, you’d add extra arrows pointing to “DOWNSIZING” or “EMPLOYEE REDUNDANCIES” bubbles.
Then one day I explained the old joke at a new gig and everyone in the room got really serious for a moment.
They told me that 6 monthish prior someone from senior management had left plans for the last downsizing round on a whiteboard and lots of people had seen it…
[+] [-] atok1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tailspin2019|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] suyash|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EasyTiger_|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] terramex|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jagtesh|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namelosw|4 years ago|reply
- You’re eating too much and we can’t afford you, we will giving you to human traffickers for free.
- If you go out and play before finishing the homework you will be eaten by wolves.
- If you don’t obey the cops are going to arrest and execute you.
- Stay away from dogs or it will bite your pp off.
- Oh we thought you were useful when we found you in the trash can, it turns out we’re wrong and we’re going to throw you back.
And there are hundreds of variants or so. They must have an anti-fortune cookie database kept under their pillow… So pathetic.
[+] [-] dfxm12|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noneeeed|4 years ago|reply
However a slight variation about joking with kids that I find does work surprisingly well is the totally exhagerrated consequences. But it really has to be totally over the top and utterly unbelievable, the sillier the better. It simultaneously breaks the impending mood of conflict, makes them laugh, while somehow actually motivating them to do what they are resisting. We all know it won't be the real consequence of them (not) doing whatever, but it still seems to work. It's weird. Doesn't always work of course (nothing with kids ever does), but a variation on the theme has frequently helped.
[+] [-] kodah|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gowld|4 years ago|reply
https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+drone+jonas
[+] [-] chokma|4 years ago|reply
And that was the time the class decided to go to our head teacher and tell her that his jokes were not funny at all and she reported back that our chemistry teacher was surprised about how someone did not appreciate his brand of humor.
[+] [-] wefarrell|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] mrtksn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freen|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] tailspin2019|4 years ago|reply
It seems like obvious advice, but the circumstances where this sort of thing could happen are described very well in the article.
I revert to humour in awkward situations, like a lot of people, but I quickly realised that there are some things that you can’t joke about when in this position.
Thankfully I don’t think the team member took any offence by it (although how would I know) - we had a good rapport and relationship, but I immediately realised my “joke” could be taken so many different (wrong) ways that I made a conscious decision to be much more careful after that.
Like many things in life, it seems blindingly obvious in retrospect but not necessarily when you’re caught up in the moment.
[+] [-] srevenant|4 years ago|reply
I remember looking at the VMware guys I was with and their eyes were bugging out like WTF, did he really just say that. By this point I was used to his crap and kindof let it roll off me. After we got away one of them asked if I was okay and said screw the presentation--he'd go introduce me to some people :D I talked him through it and did the presentation anyway.
This boss was definitely toxic--he relished psych games, and at one point handed out copies of "The art of War" so we could all "brush up"--and as much fun as I was having working there (not because of this stuff), I finally did leave within a few months on my own terms. Never have I worked with anybody as toxic as that.
(After I returned I asked the CTO about the call the boss was on where they "talked about my replacement." The CTO scoffed at it, and said that call had no such conversation. In followups my boss backpedalled and said he just meant because I was going away for a few weeks and who would cover me during that time--of course that's what he meant).
[+] [-] wccrawford|4 years ago|reply
I knew someone who had done this and the person was fired that day.
I'm sure he believed it, too, or he wouldn't have said it. But he apparently didn't have all the facts. He regrets saying it and told the story a few times while I worked with him.
On the flip side, I worked with someone who was doing poorly in their job (after having done better in the past) and tried to help them keep their job.
The longer it stretched on, the worse they did.
In the end, they lost their job and I found out afterwards that they thought we were attempting to gather enough data to fire them, when in reality there were a few of us that were actively trying to help them keep it, and even management didn't want them gone, they just wanted them to perform adequately again.
I often wonder if I should have been clear about the risk to their job, or if that would just have been seen as a threat instead. At this point, I don't think I'd do anything different.
[+] [-] macksd|4 years ago|reply
He picked up everything off his desk and walked out. Turned out he had just been fired, but he had been told it was a lay off to soften the blow. I actually thought he should be fired but the problem had been going on so long and it was the kind of place that just never fired people, so I didn't even consider that possibility.
11 years ago, I think - I still wish I hadn't said anything. But I also wish he had been given candid feedback by his manager much earlier.
[+] [-] option_greek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevage|4 years ago|reply
In most of these orgs, getting rid of someone is kind of hard work, usually involving a lot of HR. A manager would have much more luck getting you moved to a different team.
[+] [-] zcw100|4 years ago|reply
I remember a job interview where the interviewer launched into a story, unprompted, about firing someone. Didn't express any regrets or sympathy for the person. That interview was over that second. Maybe that person was the most deserving person in the world to get fired but just the fact that he thought it was something to be discussed with an interviewee spoke volumes.
[+] [-] tomrod|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] perpetualpatzer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fighterpilot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] some_random|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asamiam|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egypturnash|4 years ago|reply
It's a similar thing, I think. I'm unexpectedly in a position of power over my friends and I want to efuse it with jokes.
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|4 years ago|reply
Management is, way too often, treated as a "privilege," and a "reward."
I was a manager for 25 years. I never felt "privileged," and I considered it a "curse."
I hated every damn minute of it, but I kept doing it, because I am a control freak, and couldn't trust anyone else to do a better job. I also avoided getting promoted, because I didn't want to leave my team in the hands of the other managers I knew.
Most of my peers and superiors provided object examples in what not to do.
[+] [-] VBprogrammer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DaemonAlchemist|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgfitz|4 years ago|reply
I wouldn't make it at a company that frowns upon a 'God Damnit' in a log message.
[+] [-] Trufa|4 years ago|reply
I guess it was as lucky as you can get since we had made the joke together and I just forgot to delete it. Still remember the code, I thought I was sooooo funny. I apologize on behalf of my former self.
*:after { content: 'PENIS'; }
[+] [-] JTbane|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] makach|4 years ago|reply
Don't use silly variable names, or add jokes or profanity into your code or documentation.
Sooner or later it will surface and there is NOTHING quite as embarrasing as showing a unknown third party or a manager something on the screen that screams immaturity.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have fun at the workplace, because you should. Also it makes life at work much easier if everyone has fun- just be professional and respectful.
Also, sometimes you do slip up. Don't be afraid to apologize. It is ok. It is human to make errors, but learn from your mistakes and move on.
[+] [-] notjustanymike|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] musicale|4 years ago|reply
In most companies, managers' greatest power (besides controlling subordinates' movement, actions, privacy, and access to amenities such as light, heating/cooling, quiet environments, restrooms, etc.) is their largely unlimited power to simultaneously deprive subordinates of their livelihood, health insurance, social relationships, and social status.
Ed Zitron suggests that maintaining this social dominance and control over subordinates is typically the underlying (and primary) reason why managers want employees "back in the office":
https://ez.substack.com/p/the-work-from-home-future-is-destr...
[+] [-] mherdeg|4 years ago|reply
We got some strong negative feedback about a headline saying that people had been "fired" when the story was that a kind of lab technology had become obsolete and a number of lab technicians had been laid off. I had signed off on the headline, was responsible, and have never forgotten.
People take their jobs very seriously; it's the thing we choose to do -- or have to do -- instead of being with our families and friends. And "fired" is one of the strongest words in our language. We need to be sure we understand what we are doing when we use it.
[+] [-] JohnFen|4 years ago|reply
Nothing bad came of it, but it does show how easy it is to do.