[lcpriest]

All that is true, but - we also don’t force farmers to internalize the externalities created by their industry.

Southland farmers themselves are saying that if they had to comply with proposed water and soil quality regulations that they wouldn’t be able to exist due to the increased costs involved.

The backlash even from the introduction of a heavy vehicles tax are representative of how much these farmers think they rely on the unpriced benefits they are getting.

[kibibu]

> if they had to comply with proposed water and soil quality regulations that they wouldn’t be able to exist due to the increased costs involved

People always say things like this until they are forced to, and somehow find a way.

(Particularly if imports were charged similar tariffs)

[stkdump]

> People always say things like this until they are forced to, and somehow find a way.

That is one of two possible outcomes. The other is that the sector just dies off and relocates to another place on earth, where externalities don't have to be considered, maybe for strategic reason. This has happened many times.

[roenxi]

> All that is true, but - we also don’t force farmers to internalize the externalities created by their industry.

The net externality is probably positive, and if you want to start evening the slate using externalities then farmers would deserve a subsidy (which is bad policy).

Food is about as high on a supply chain as it is possible to get, and the entire downstream supply chain would count as an externality of the farmer's activity. If farmers didn't produce food we'd all starve to death, but that is absolutely not priced in to how much they get paid.

[laingc]

As I said, I really don’t want to get drawn into the environmental debate, but there is one persistent myth that does need to be corrected: the idea that emissions from “heavy” vehicles are not priced. They are. They’re in the ETS. Reductions in heavy vehicle use due to tax will not reduce carbon emissions at all, as it will be emitted elsewhere in the economy. The only way to reduce the emissions of an activity covered by the ETS is to lower the cap, which can be done without a vehicle tax of any kind.

[te_chris]

It’s time to subsidise NZ farmers to at least encourage sustainable land use.

[theodric]

Farming is thankless, backbreaking, poorly-paid work that often is only viable because of subsidies the government provides, because the government recognizes that without farmers we'll all starve. And you're concerned that they're not paying their fair share. Fine. Good luck with that.

[WastingMyTime89]

> they're not paying their fair share

That's not how it works. There is no fair share. He is saying that farmers are not actually paying the costs they make society incur. Therefore these costs are not priced into the meat they produce which would not be that competitive if that was the case. It's a form of subsidy.

[adrianN]

The cost of food as a share of income has fallen dramatically over the last fifty years or so. It's not unfathomable that it rises a bit again in exchange for properly pricing in externalities.

[xorfish]

Demand for food is pretty inelastic.

If the external costs were included, consumer would simply be forced to pay for their consumption.

This would give a fair advantage for food that has less external costs.

External costs are also hard to estimate, especially if they is burdened on another species. How much is the suffering of a chicken worth?

[krageon]

> we'll all starve

Please, every time someone proposes farmers lead a less cushioned life we get these huge bitter fights from somewhere. They don't also have to exist here. If you have a vested interest and want your subsidies to continue, that's cool! But there's no need to peddle your salty response to it when literally everyone everywhere has already heard them said many, many times.