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How to Live in Airbnbs for the Price of an Apartment Lease

88 points| ofou | 4 years ago |esimoney.com | reply

115 comments

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[+] seanhunter|4 years ago|reply
Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term. I would contend that for that yield you are taking some risk which in this plan you can't afford. A very commonly quoted "safe" yield assumption is 4%. Yes you can earn more, but in many cases for more yield you are taking more risk. For example the author mentions private loans and syndications, which carry a significant risk of loss of capital. Since they are planning to live on the proceeds of that capital, a loss would be a big problem, because your retirement income may not be easy to supplement (lots of older people find they can't work or can't easily get a job).
[+] texasbigdata|4 years ago|reply
Abstracting away your concept, any number could be too high even 4%.

Assuming a build up method of risk, which is a practical/theoretical way you can categorize returns across asset classes, you start with the "risk free rate" which often could be the US short term borrowing rate. Currently it's pegged artificially at 0.25%.

From there you add risk. So a municipal bond backing a school would earn a 2% "spread" or risk premium for a 2.25% return, and your "Uber but for XYZ" would be significantly higher.

Rather than picking arbitrary cutoffs it's helpful to think about returns in terms of where they sit relative to GDP growth. From 1750 to 2010 the equity and certain real markets track GDP growth (not in any particular year but in inflation adjusted terms). Which makes sense conceptually since asset markets should be a exchange rate adjusted money supply expression of GDP growth conceptually.

Why does this matter? Germany, for example, has negative rates. Rules of thumb absolutely break as you tangentially approach 0% base rates.

1 . https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/federal-funds-... 2. https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product

[+] Bradlinc|4 years ago|reply
I wonder if there is a way to hedge the potential losses by picking an underlying asset that follows the rental market more closely? The best I can come up with is to own and rent a similar property to the one you would be renting via AirBNB. Unfortunately this seems unappealing to me, as in this scenario I still have many of the same trappings of owning a house (which is is the reason I wanted to live in AirBNBs in the first place!) The second solution I have thought about is to invest in a REIT that invests in residential real estate. I believe this can work but 7% would still feel too high for me. Also, one would have to pay tax on the income from either of these scenarios, which wouldn't be necessary if you owned your house outright.
[+] foobar1962|4 years ago|reply
> Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term.

Funny you mention that... I was looking at my bank accounts yesterday and noticed that one of the non-transaction "saver" accounts offered 0.1% interest for deposits over $10,000 and 0% for less. (This is a major bank in Australia.)

[+] badpun|4 years ago|reply
I am assuming 0% yield (in real terms). I worry that it might be too optimistic still.
[+] idiot900|4 years ago|reply
I did this for a few months when my house construction was delayed. Living out of a suitcase, even in relatively nice Airbnbs, was soul-sucking. No choice of mattress, a limited wardrobe, same-y IKEA decor everywhere. Not having a true "home base" was no fun. Wouldn't recommend it unless you really have the personality for it.
[+] joezydeco|4 years ago|reply
"In addition, I save roughly $8k a year on housing expenses – taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, etc."

I'm no accountant, but the lack of an expense isn't the same as cash flow. If the investment is paying 31.5k/year, that's all you have. I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet.

Also, is this your plan once you hit advanced age? You want to be 75 years old, possibly with limited mobility, and be told your rental is expiring and you need to move?

I suppose you could buy your old house back but real estate appreciation means it's now going to cost you $600,000.

[+] atatatat|4 years ago|reply
> I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet.

But you do save the time it takes to become a CEO/celebrity/what have you, via whatever path.

[+] jsonne|4 years ago|reply
I do this right now and have been living in airbnbs with my wife and child for over a year paying comparable rent we did in Denver. We actually got featured on the Today show for it a few months ago. AMA?

Biggest thing is the multi month stay discounts. Sometimes we get 60-70% off. We're in Florence Italy right now in a great location and paid roughly $2000 for 45 days (so significantly lower than our Denver rent). Once you get packing down really the biggest pain I've found is car rentals which seem stubbornly expensive and stuck in the stone age so we prioritize places with great public transit.

[+] Areibman|4 years ago|reply
How stressful is this for the family unit as a whole? I would imagine that traveling with a child is not easy, and as they enter school, there's much more pressure to just settle down in one place.
[+] leppr|4 years ago|reply
How do you handle looking for accommodations?

That was the biggest hurdle for me when I was doing the digital nomad thing. When you're settling in for the long term, you can take the time to do multiple visits in order to make an informed decision. When you're settling short term, you don't care that much if the accommodation you booked online isn't good. But when you're doing the temporary-but-mid-term thing, it's complicated because short term rentals are often icky about visits, while making a bad decision has more serious consequences for you: getting stuck for months in a bad accommodation isn't fun, especially if you plan to work out of it.

[+] jcims|4 years ago|reply
I’ve literally been hunting airbnb properties over the past week in Florence and northern Italy for a 1-2 month stay for my parents and kids. This is great to hear, and good tip on public transit. Is Turo much of a thing there?
[+] stevekemp|4 years ago|reply
I read the piece, and the moment the author mentioned booking in advance I wondered what happens if you've booked in January to lock in lower rates for July, and then they cancel at the last minute?

Suddenly you'd have to pay the higher/normal cost and change your plans at short notice. It feels like that's a risky thing to live with - I've not used airbnb so often, but even booking only a few weeks ahead I've had hosts cancel with essentially zero notice so I have to assume that's a pretty common occurrence.

[+] debo_|4 years ago|reply
Do you qualify Florence as a place with great public transit? I lived there for a few months ages ago (2006) and my only memorable experience with transit there was literally getting hit by a bus (and then arguing with the driver about whether it was my fault or not) :)

I loved it there. I hope you do too!

[+] mLuby|4 years ago|reply
> We actually got featured on the Today show for it a few months ago. AMA?

How did you get featured on the Today show? Who initiated that?

[+] Bradlinc|4 years ago|reply
Do you use an external display or just a laptop screen when nomading?
[+] lbrito|4 years ago|reply
>3,600 square foot house.

>As of now, our two kids, my son-in-law, and my daughter’s four cats are in the house and it feels barely big enough.

That's a huge space for just 5 people. I'm baffled that someone would find a 335 square meters house "barely enough".

I went through password reset just for this.

[+] I_AM_A_SMURF|4 years ago|reply
Americans are used to much bigger homes than (I presume you are) Europeans. Also in bigger homes there's a lot more "wasted" space so a 335 sq mt home is not three times as large as a 100 sq mt home, e.g. in my house there are two landings that take a huge space (comparably to EU homes) and don't really offer any living space.
[+] tbihl|4 years ago|reply
I'm sympathetic; it would take a very large house to feel "big enough" if someone released four cats into it.
[+] didntknowya|4 years ago|reply
depends on the design too. i've been in much smaller houses with more people and sometimes you can barely notice them around when you're in your own little space.
[+] ptero|4 years ago|reply
First, I will add another vote to "don't assume a 7% return" camp. Others already mentioned inflation, 7% average over 20 yrs vs needing 7% every year, etc.

But just as much as economics, consider a requirement to move every year or every few months. People, especially as they get older, tend to like knowing they have a home where they can spend as long as they want, where they know their neighbors, etc. It might not feel like a big thing until one loses it.

Personally, I would consider downsizing and if needed do occasional work for travel money. My 2c.

[+] michaelt|4 years ago|reply
> I invest the $450k at 7% (I could get private loans at 10% or some syndication deals at higher than 7%, but let’s be conservative.)

Are there that many 7% investments that are safe enough to gamble your savings and the roof over your head on?

[+] cpursley|4 years ago|reply
Low fee while market index funds have historically returned that or more (in the long run).
[+] akvadrako|4 years ago|reply
I used to put money in https://www.twino.eu, which offers plenty of guaranteed loans at about 10% interest. The main risk is the company defaults, but they have a healthy balance sheet and have been around for about a decade.
[+] xwdv|4 years ago|reply
In this economy? Yes. The S&P 500 alone is up 20% this year.
[+] madaxe_again|4 years ago|reply
I find it interesting that the author only looks at Airbnb as a source of housing, but it seemingly doesn’t occur to them that it’s also a way to flip their liability (their house) into an asset.

I moved to an inexpensive property in another country, and put my home on Airbnb. It yields far more than 7% - more like 20%, and is comfortably enough to live on, as I bought the cheap home here outright.

[+] seanhunter|4 years ago|reply
That seems a much better plan than the author's, because if things go wrong you still have the original asset to fall back on (you can move back into your house if the bottom falls out of the airbnb thing and you can't live on it any more).
[+] jsonne|4 years ago|reply
So we live in airbnbs and have for over a year. Our long term plan is exactly as you described which is have a "home base" and house swap or rent ours on airbnb while we then travel via airbnb which is a bit easier / more stable of an approach imho.
[+] fortran77|4 years ago|reply
I was thinking the same thing. Other alternatives would be to reconfigure his house so it's a duplex, and renting out half, or put a "ADU" in the yard, live in that, and rent out the house.
[+] wheybags|4 years ago|reply
They could also just offer their house as a traditional rental, with much the same effect.
[+] pharmakom|4 years ago|reply
Always interesting to Read how people life this way. personally I can't be bothered with the hassle of moving several times per year... and biggest of all, I like my own bed!
[+] chii|4 years ago|reply
i don't see where they might store their clothes and other such items, unless they are living out of a suit-case (which, to be fair, might be quite a good minimalist kind of life)
[+] dcdc123|4 years ago|reply
As someone who is over one year into doing exactly this…no, you can’t. Airbnb’s are insanely expensive right now and their fees are higher than ever. Availability is poor and you are lucky to even find a decent place in an area you want to stay. Add in parking and internet requirements and it gets even more difficult.
[+] wobblyasp|4 years ago|reply
This is just bad advice. 7% might be achievable, but it also might not be. Are you truly willing to risk everything on the hope you can live in someone else's home a couple of months of the year? Why not just do the same yourself?
[+] NovemberWhiskey|4 years ago|reply
The financial analysis is a little peculiar, even dangerous.

The author spends effort calculating the return on the investments they could make if they sold the home, but doesn't consider that the home itself is also an asset.

It also neglects the impact of tax policy. The investment returns made would be taxable from the first dollar, but the first $250K ($500K if married filing jointly) of capital gains on a home are not taxable.

It might be that the author is really doubtful about the prospects for the real estate market but it seems like that's an important assumption to document for this analysis.

The author also makes a significant error in conflating the average long-run returns on an investment with a safe draw-down rate. If, over a 20 year horizon (for example), you plan on withdrawing 7% of the initial investment annually against a 100% stock portfolio, you have a 50% chance that your investment is going to be completely gone before that point.

This is because of the volatility of stock returns and, in particular, the risk of substantial losses early in the investment period.

N.B. none of the above is financial advice, YMMV, consult a registered investment advisor etc. etc.

[+] etothepii|4 years ago|reply
All of this assumes there would be no tax on the yield. The big benefit of owning a house is that the coupon (living in the house) isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world. Whereas interest payments are usually taxed at least as capital gains if not income.
[+] chii|4 years ago|reply
> isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world.

Some countries do tax imputed rent, such as Belgium, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Slovenia, Spain and Switzerland.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent

[+] ilaksh|4 years ago|reply
Well, I doubt most people on HN care about Mexico, but just in case I will tell you what I have seen as far as AirBnb prices.

The first place I lived in Mexico was an AirBnb I rented for about $700 for two weeks. It had rave reviews. What I didn't realize from the pictures was that it was literally a shack in someone's driveway. A very nicely outfitted shack with a bathroom and a very secure fence and gate. But a small room.

I ended up moving to a place right on the beach for about $775 per month. This was the most touristy area though. Later found an apartment for only $550.

The place where I currently am is further south in Baja. Small apartment but exclusive gated community. Now it used to be an AirBnb that was renting for $70-90 per night. But AirBnb can be a pain to manage so the owner listed it with a real estate company. $500 because people are just not going to pay a lot more for a small apartment -- unless they are from the US and it's on AirBnb.

So I would say, consider getting an AirBnb at first, but use it to look at the local real estate listings. Or be a good guest and get to know the host and maybe they will want to make a lease in person.

[+] Ayesh|4 years ago|reply
I've been living with my backpack for a few years now, with 3-4 month breaks in between trips. You can certainly have a bunch of new experiences and achieve a comfortable and quality life more expat-friendly places. Croatia, Serbia, Georgia, etc are slow enough to feel home, but are also affordable. South Eastern Asian countries also make a very nice experience.

I suppose the issue never is the money. Of course it is cheaper to live in cheaper cities that provide good value and comforts you are looking for. However, the real cost is the lack of feeling _real_ home. I can cope with the feeling that I will eventually leave this city, and all the friendships and relationships you build will come to an end. I don't think that kind of life isn't suitable for if you can't make you mind to turn a new chapter every few months.

That, and finding a good Airbnb can be very difficult, specially when you are not familiar with a city. In Ho Chi Minh City, for example, it took me nearly three months to find an apartment that would eventually suit my life, and the time in between isn't really that fun, nor inexpensive.

[+] guidedlight|4 years ago|reply
The author is assuming a low inflation economy.

However the low inflation days might already be over. Annual inflation is already at 5.3%, and not forecast to go down.

So that 7% is already closer to 1.7%.

[+] jraby3|4 years ago|reply
Inflation is measured by a basket of items that doesn’t currently include housing. So chances are it’s significantly higher for most people.
[+] netfortius|4 years ago|reply
Doing exactly this, but with VRBO, which has better pricing than Airbnb, especially for 3-6 months - France - $900/month fully furnished, utilities, internet, etc. included, while equivalent unfurnished apt rental for same surface and area of the city is approx $1.2k, for 1-3 yrs rental. Even better - after the first iteration of such, some owners are willing to take the apt off VRBO, then rent direct, for longer, as they got to know whom they're dealing with.
[+] timo555|4 years ago|reply
I would venture that many owners are willing to rent direct and save the airBnB fees if they can meet you in person.

I've been living in Spain for the last couple of years with normal 1 year leases. This year however I didn't know if I would be able to commit to another year so I started looking for multi-month AirBnB rentals. My current 1 year lease is 920€/month (with utilities about 1000€) for a furnished 2 bedroom apartment with a great view of the beach. All of the AirBnB's I was looking at even with the ~50% monthly discount were showing around 1700€/month. I picked 3 I liked and messaged them through AirBnB that I was living in the area and I would like to check out the apartment in person but I can only afford 900€/month. All 3 replied to me with counter offers between 1100€ and 1300€. I picked the one I liked best, met it person, and we agreed on 1000€/month for a 3.5 month lease including all utilities. We signed a lease contract on the side and both avoided the fees.

AirBnB is great for booking a place when you are not in the city but I think you can get much better deals if you know the local market and are able to meet the landlords face to face.

TLDR: If I was going to look for a place for 3-4 months I would book the first month through AirBnB then apartment hunt in person in the target city for the remaining months at a steep discount.

[+] briga_|4 years ago|reply
I've been doing this for a year or so now. I gave up my apartment, and have been driving around Europe, staying in various Airbnbs. The cost is much lower than I would've paid if I stayed in Amsterdam. This is because I can stay in cheaper countries, but also because I am not paying rent when I go on a holiday, go to my family for Christmas, and so on. I am not lacking any stuff, because I can leave some clothes in the back of my car while I keep the rest in a large suitcase / backpack combination.

The biggest downsides so far are: 1. Periods of loneliness. I don't mind this too much as I can just use the time to work on interesting personal projects. And I make my trips coincide with friends traveling there too, or already living there. 2. As some have stated here: your own bed is better. The biggest problem I have so far is that some airbnbs don't have proper curtains so I am wide awake at 6 am. A quality sleepmask works wonders here. 3. A lack of a proper place to work from. Often airbnbs will list a desk when in reality it's a shitty table with a bad chair. But this has been much better since COVID restrictions lifted and I have a list of good libraries to work from.

The upsides are amazing, and not really worth listing because I think these should be kind of 'obvious' to you if you were to consider such a lifestyle to begin with. One thing I will note here is that there is something amazing about closing your laptop after a good stint of work and walking straight into the most beautiful nature, or an amazing local restaurant.

EDIT: I get that the article is kind of pushing this as a money-saving trick to live in the same area. I think it's probably not worth it for that purpose. But if you care to do so then downsides 2/3 above may still apply.

[+] readingnews|4 years ago|reply
> House sells for $450k after realtor’s fees

Hrm, this person is not average.

"According to Zillow, the typical value of U.S. homes is $269,039 as of January 2021, a 9.1% increase from January 2020." [1]

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-home...

[+] gamechangr|4 years ago|reply
And clearly he/she own it entirely.

I would think that most people have a mortgage and do not own their property free and clear.

[+] vmception|4 years ago|reply
Ignoring the rent vs own part of the article, and just looking at the title:

This is one of the best uses of AirBnB currently! It circumvents or avoids most local prohibitions against short term stays (airbnbs) because these are long term stays over 30 days. Its one of the best options for having a furnished place already.

If you aren't budget constrained its a great way to mix things up.

By that I mean maybe you are still renting at a homebase elsewhere without even bothering with subletting, or maybe you do home improvement things in your airbnb such as getting a fan or pillows or dining sets that you are going to leave there, but improve your life while you are there.

This isn't stuff you have to be rich for (by US standards), but it is something you have to be in a fairly privileged place for financially, so that's nice. And honestly, didn't these last few years teach you all not to delay satisfaction, don't worry about the most optimal financial situations if you in fact can financially accept the consequences. Doing something like that for a few months or even most of a year doesn't impact your ability to save up for a house or get yourself stuck in a mortgage for an additional thirty years, I mean that's many of you all's plan right? So just live a little and do whatever you want.