Ah, when I was a teenager, this was (and still is) one of my favorite albums. A band changes direction completely, creates something totally new and loses the interest of their old fans. There are three albums that somewhat relate to each other, where an artist or a band changed their direction completely and created something the fans hated first, finding their audience much later.
King Crimson: Discipline. A mixture of quirky pop which at the first listen sounds simple, but when you dig into it turns into something completely different. Nice tight package of brilliant tracks, played by extremely talented musicians. Math music you can hum in the shower. The band kind of disappointed their old fans coming from the album Red to this one. I like both albums a lot.
Talk Talk: Spirit of Eden. Pop megastars got all the studio time they wanted. Instead of creating another mega hit after The Colour of Spring, they hired tens of musicians, turned off all lights from the studio and sampled the mistakes and off-takes together creating a new genre, which was later known as post rock. You kind of sink into their world when listening to this, finding new things even after decades of listening. 20 years later Radiohead did a similar change of direction and got really popular. The record company sued Talk Talk for their album in the 80's.
Miles Davis: On the Corner. Oh how the jazz audience hated this album. Miles wanted to get the young black audience, and created a funky kraut masterpiece of an album. Cut from tape by the mighty Teo Macero, it sets a standard of sampling used by the hip hop artists a decade later. As all the other albums I mentioned here, put some good headphones on and it's crazy how you can sink into the music. Repetitive in a similar way as Discipline, but instead of looking into pop and post punk, this one takes its influence from funk, krautrock and jazz.
If you have a mind that can appreciate any of these albums, the others will tickle the same cells in your brain.
Opeth: Heritage. I didn't start listening to Opeth until long after this album was released, so I was extremely happy to hear the diversity of their catalog (which to me, isn't as drastic as others seem to feel about it).
Opeth made metal interesting for me again and definitely stretches what many folks would generally thing about it.
I'll add MGMT to the mix. Their first album Oracular Spectacular gave us a few well-known pop hits, but their next albums Congratulations and Little Dark Age veered deep into psych rock and totally alienated the pop fans. The new albums are totally unsuited for casual listening and are probably best enjoyed with some scheduled substances.
I'd suggest Ministry's first album With Sympathy full of 80s synth-pop followed by everything else. I found Ministry with Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste, and then dutifully went searching for the previous albums. When I found Sympathy, I thought something surely must have gone wrong at the plant making the CDs.
Thanks!
Both Spirit of Eden and On the Corner are among my favorite albums for basically the reasons you outlined, so now I’m intrigued by the shift between Red and Discipline!
Honestly - you should really just go through their discography in full sometime. There are a lot of great tracks off In Court of the Crimson King (I Talk to the Wind being a favourite of mine) along with Red (Starless being one I'd highlight). It's a band that sort of faded into obscurity IMO - being muscled out by bigger names from that era like Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd, all of which are definitely worth listening too, but King Crimson has got something special.
The Discipline and 2000’s era KC are probably my least favorite. My preference is for the 70’s Wetton-fronted version and 95’s Thrak.
Part of me feels like 80’s Crimson was riding changes in music, rather than driving them. Another part applauds them for discarding the familiar and continuing to evolve.
Some of my standout favorites from the Discipline era are “Frame by Frame”, “Three of a Perfect Pair”. And everything Tony Levin does is incredible.
Providence, from Red, speaks to me, it's the story of life evolving from the chaos of the universe, existing briefly in something of a musically recognisable pattern, and then devolving back into the chaos from whence it came.
Telling the story of life in the solar system in an 8-minute span.
I remember seeing them in Edinburgh in the 70s. People were arriving late and chatting. Robert Fripp folded his arms and stood their silently for several minutes, looking at the audience as if they were vermin. Everyone went quiet and looked around at each other in embarrassment. Then, once you could have heard a pin drop, they started playing. Great.
You could see some amazing bands back then - I saw Beefheart three times.
I had a similar experience seeing them in Oslo a few years ago. They were incredibly strict about disruptions and people using devices. It came across entirely as a "don't be selfish and ruin the experience for others", and it was amazing. No talking, just music. It's the best concert I've ever been to. At the end they said to the audience "we would like to take some pictures of you guys, and of course you can now do the same". And we did.
I wish more artists had this attitude, as I no longer go to any "normal" concerts. Half the audience is drunk, and half the audience is having a conversation in the middle of a song. (The first part is fine, but it tends to exasperate the latter)
Of course, some music groups/performances are more suited for a "let's party"-attitude where this doesn't apply.
Grew up listening to these guys (in fact, even in the womb I was at their concerts) and I would certainly say that their music has shaped who I am for the better.
It is absolutely bonkers that they (or, Fripp at least) are still playing music after 50 years and still touching the hearts of so many people.
A little bit off topic -- but we had a new consultant join our team and the only personal effect he brought with him was a grateful dead dancing bears mug. I have no idea what he does but we were able to connect over our love of good music and still today are good friends.
Sometimes I wonder what the effects of increasing cultural segmentation are going to be. When I was younger, people I met at parties or shows were way more likely to share multiple cultural touchstones with me. Broadcasts like Subterranean on MTV2 created a shared surface area for indie and alt kids, basically across the United States. Later, on local levels, last.fm concert listings made it easy to find my people. That's how I met my wife.
Now, I have no idea where to find people who share the same "cultural flavor" as me. I feel like everyone's interests have become so idiosyncratic that I can no longer stand any of my best friend's favorite music, movies, memes, etc. and vice versa.
For a long time, I tried to stay on the local pulse so that I could find an audience for my music. It got harder and harder. I then had two realizations... I heard some advice from some musician, "Dont focus on being in a band, focus on making music." That's exactly the error I had been making for the past 15 years. The other week, one of my friends played a solo noise set on a bill of pop punk and emo bands. I missed his set, but apparently out of about 150 kids, only one stayed inside to watch him. He was still buzzing just from playing. I realized, even if I set up a show in the middle of the desert and no one shows up, I could still make some sounds and wiggle around and catch a little ecstasy from the ether.
> It is absolutely bonkers that they (or, Fripp at least) are still playing music after 50 years and still touching the hearts of so many people.
And the current King Crimson line-up give absolutely killer concerts. Older things like Letters or Sailor's Tale have likely never sounded this good. Really hope this band lasts long enough to incorporate more from the Fripp-Sinfield era into their setlists.
Robert Fripp released a new playlist, in youtube[1], named Music For Quiet Moments. It is an instrumental album and quoting from the description:
`
Robert Fripp's "Music for Quiet Moments" series. We will be releasing an ambient instrumental soundscape online every week for 50 weeks. Something to nourish us, and help us through these Uncertain Times.
`
I consider this (posting on YT) a huge change from his God Save The Queen days. He's still obsessed with control but offering free content is something he wouldn't have done then.
Adding for context: After GStQ shows, he'd sit on the edge of the stage and talk to the audience. He definitely connected with his fans. Yeah he's (openly) a control freak but he's no 'tone deaf' elitist.
edit: It occurs to me that Discipline could be a product of that controlling nature.
Fripp and Toyah also appeared on the UK couples quiz show Mr and Mrs a few years ago. Quite the most unexpected appearance but also quite charming in its own way.
I saw Belew sometime probably 2009 in a solo show in near Cincinnati OH. Amazing player and his solo albums are top notch. Later caught one of the first Adrian Belew Power Trio shows in Springfield OH. It was him and Julie Slick on Bass and Eric Slick on drums, both I think from the school of rock in Philly. Check them out on bandcamp.
“Discipline” is one of those albums that totally changed the way I thought about music.
When I was a kid I was really into classic prog rock (i.e. Yes, Genesis, ELP, etc.) and was mesmerized by Bill Bruford’s playing and technique on “Close to the Edge”, which led me to this incarnation of King Crimson.
One song in particular that really stuck out to me was “Thela Hun Ginjeet”, which includes a recording of Adrian Belew recounting an experience being heckled on the street, but until I read the Wikipedia page for the album I had no idea it was secretly recorded by Fripp and wasn’t scripted (including the maniacal laugh at the end). It blew my mind that they were able to create this soundscape that turned a recording of a totally sane Belew into what I thought was a paranoid schizophrenic.
Each song on the album stands on its own, and it’s probably my favorite in King Crimson’s discography.
This band is truly amazing and they just keep getting better. Their recent live albums from 2017-2018 are some of their best releases. I think HN would really appreciate the technical talent of this band.
Here's Danny Carey (Drummer from Tool) talking about this album and how the title track influenced his style. https://youtu.be/SsxSm1xCR-E?t=175 You can definitely hear how that song influenced Tool's signature sound years later.
Wow, I had never heard this album before and I started listening to the first song Elephant Talk before finishing the article. My first reaction was "this sounds a lot like Primus" and at the end of the article Primus was indeed mentioned as being influenced by this album.
Those first few notes of Discipline had the same effect on me but s/Primus/Tool.
There are very few albums that I can say that I have a clear memory of listening to them for the first time. Discipline is one of them. It was spring break of my freshman year of college and the drummer in the band I was playing in asked me to keep his CD collection in my room over break because there were occasional break-ins to rooms of people gone for the week. I listened to a lot of music new to me, but the one that grabbed me by the throat was Discipline.
Over time, I became a bigger and bigger fan of Crimson. My favorite era was the 74–77 incarnation which shed a member with each album until it finally collapsed, although the current line-up which has focused entirely on live performance is just amazing. I regret not getting the chance to see them live, and suspect that between Covid and the aging of the band that I never will see them live, but it's a truly amazing group of musicians (albeit one whose membership has been unstable since the start. The 80s trilogy of albums was the longest run without a lineup change in the band's history.)
I loved this album when it came out! (Just pulled it up on Spotify, it's been several years!)
This and Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair were continuously played back in those days.
I remember repeatedly calling my local classic rock radio station requesting Frame by Frame. They never played it, unsurprisingly!
Another favorite from a few years before is Fripp's solo album Exposure [1]. Great vocals on some tracks by Darrell Hall of Hall and Oates. Changed my thinking about that guy! Also a wonderful version of Here Comes the Flood with Peter Gabriel, with great Frippertronics going on throughout. Great stuff!
As a massive music nerd, I can think of very few bands who have played for over 50 years and keep on reinventing themselves.
Most bands decline over the years, but not King Crimson. That said, I have to say the double trio lineup is my favorite era of theirs.
The only other band that IMO comes close in keeping high quality for 50 years is probably Magma. The only difference is that they're mostly staying the same (not in a bad way, mind you), and not necessarily reinventing themselves. Instead they're just getting more refined.
I lean towards the Fripp/Wetton/Bruford/[Cross]/[Muir] lineup myself, although the current line-up is edging towards it, held back by the paucity of new songs more than anything else.
I was a Bowie fan in the 70s and very excited about his work with Robert Fripp (for example, the e-bow line in Heroes). Then a musician friend introduced me to Fripp and Belew's King Crimson. The opening track, Elephant Talk, of this album (Discipline) is eye-opening.
I remember seeing Frame by Frame on ‘The Old Grey Whistle Test’ in 1982 [1] and being blown away by every aspect of it - and puzzled. What do the lyrics mean? Why would Fripp sit in the dark wearing a suit? Almost forty years on and the whole album still intrigues me, which I guess is one measure of greatness.
"We were in a part of London that was a dangerous area" - apparently that incident occurred in Notting Hill Gate; that's hardly a rough neighbourhood. Parts of Notting Hill are definitely seedy, but I wouldn't be nervous waiting for a bus there at night.
A lot of people I knew in the 80's punk scene would trash prog rock as being too polished (think YES' Relayer with a single track on a side). Yet we all loved Discipline (some secretly). Prog as it was, it was still raw power.
[+] [-] pimeys|4 years ago|reply
King Crimson: Discipline. A mixture of quirky pop which at the first listen sounds simple, but when you dig into it turns into something completely different. Nice tight package of brilliant tracks, played by extremely talented musicians. Math music you can hum in the shower. The band kind of disappointed their old fans coming from the album Red to this one. I like both albums a lot.
Talk Talk: Spirit of Eden. Pop megastars got all the studio time they wanted. Instead of creating another mega hit after The Colour of Spring, they hired tens of musicians, turned off all lights from the studio and sampled the mistakes and off-takes together creating a new genre, which was later known as post rock. You kind of sink into their world when listening to this, finding new things even after decades of listening. 20 years later Radiohead did a similar change of direction and got really popular. The record company sued Talk Talk for their album in the 80's.
Miles Davis: On the Corner. Oh how the jazz audience hated this album. Miles wanted to get the young black audience, and created a funky kraut masterpiece of an album. Cut from tape by the mighty Teo Macero, it sets a standard of sampling used by the hip hop artists a decade later. As all the other albums I mentioned here, put some good headphones on and it's crazy how you can sink into the music. Repetitive in a similar way as Discipline, but instead of looking into pop and post punk, this one takes its influence from funk, krautrock and jazz.
If you have a mind that can appreciate any of these albums, the others will tickle the same cells in your brain.
[+] [-] borispavlovic|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] butterisgood|4 years ago|reply
Opeth made metal interesting for me again and definitely stretches what many folks would generally thing about it.
[+] [-] toastercat|4 years ago|reply
Didn't deep dive into Talk Talk until a few years ago, but so happy I have. Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock are both stunningly beautiful albums.
[+] [-] Invictus0|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dylan604|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cannabis_sam|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lightlyused|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] munk-a|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stillblue|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lc9er|4 years ago|reply
Part of me feels like 80’s Crimson was riding changes in music, rather than driving them. Another part applauds them for discarding the familiar and continuing to evolve.
Some of my standout favorites from the Discipline era are “Frame by Frame”, “Three of a Perfect Pair”. And everything Tony Levin does is incredible.
[+] [-] sqlacid|4 years ago|reply
Knowledge is a deadly friend When no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see Is in the hands of fools.
[+] [-] BLKNSLVR|4 years ago|reply
Telling the story of life in the solar system in an 8-minute span.
[+] [-] zabzonk|4 years ago|reply
You could see some amazing bands back then - I saw Beefheart three times.
[+] [-] okamiueru|4 years ago|reply
I wish more artists had this attitude, as I no longer go to any "normal" concerts. Half the audience is drunk, and half the audience is having a conversation in the middle of a song. (The first part is fine, but it tends to exasperate the latter)
Of course, some music groups/performances are more suited for a "let's party"-attitude where this doesn't apply.
[+] [-] osamagirl69|4 years ago|reply
It is absolutely bonkers that they (or, Fripp at least) are still playing music after 50 years and still touching the hearts of so many people.
A little bit off topic -- but we had a new consultant join our team and the only personal effect he brought with him was a grateful dead dancing bears mug. I have no idea what he does but we were able to connect over our love of good music and still today are good friends.
[+] [-] nefitty|4 years ago|reply
Now, I have no idea where to find people who share the same "cultural flavor" as me. I feel like everyone's interests have become so idiosyncratic that I can no longer stand any of my best friend's favorite music, movies, memes, etc. and vice versa.
For a long time, I tried to stay on the local pulse so that I could find an audience for my music. It got harder and harder. I then had two realizations... I heard some advice from some musician, "Dont focus on being in a band, focus on making music." That's exactly the error I had been making for the past 15 years. The other week, one of my friends played a solo noise set on a bill of pop punk and emo bands. I missed his set, but apparently out of about 150 kids, only one stayed inside to watch him. He was still buzzing just from playing. I realized, even if I set up a show in the middle of the desert and no one shows up, I could still make some sounds and wiggle around and catch a little ecstasy from the ether.
[+] [-] oldnews193|4 years ago|reply
And the current King Crimson line-up give absolutely killer concerts. Older things like Letters or Sailor's Tale have likely never sounded this good. Really hope this band lasts long enough to incorporate more from the Fripp-Sinfield era into their setlists.
[+] [-] obiwanpallav1|4 years ago|reply
` Robert Fripp's "Music for Quiet Moments" series. We will be releasing an ambient instrumental soundscape online every week for 50 weeks. Something to nourish us, and help us through these Uncertain Times. `
1. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbnpw-XH5DOFvCUsuoNNb...
[+] [-] WarOnPrivacy|4 years ago|reply
Adding for context: After GStQ shows, he'd sit on the edge of the stage and talk to the audience. He definitely connected with his fans. Yeah he's (openly) a control freak but he's no 'tone deaf' elitist.
edit: It occurs to me that Discipline could be a product of that controlling nature.
[+] [-] simlevesque|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kaibeezy|4 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/UD-GrAMUzO8
https://youtu.be/24DKSkOQzm8
https://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/adrian-belew-and-t...
Then there’s the whole Toyah and Robert’s Sunday Lunch thing.
https://toyahwillcox.com/toyah-roberts-sunday-lunch/
WTF... and yet. Such intensely creative and talented people. Wha’s like them? Damn few.
[+] [-] klelatti|4 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64VGyoIyBgc
[+] [-] lightlyused|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] herodoturtle|4 years ago|reply
And they're aaall dead.
... You wan' some rye?
'Course you do.
[+] [-] zbaylin|4 years ago|reply
When I was a kid I was really into classic prog rock (i.e. Yes, Genesis, ELP, etc.) and was mesmerized by Bill Bruford’s playing and technique on “Close to the Edge”, which led me to this incarnation of King Crimson.
One song in particular that really stuck out to me was “Thela Hun Ginjeet”, which includes a recording of Adrian Belew recounting an experience being heckled on the street, but until I read the Wikipedia page for the album I had no idea it was secretly recorded by Fripp and wasn’t scripted (including the maniacal laugh at the end). It blew my mind that they were able to create this soundscape that turned a recording of a totally sane Belew into what I thought was a paranoid schizophrenic.
Each song on the album stands on its own, and it’s probably my favorite in King Crimson’s discography.
[+] [-] laumars|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brickmort|4 years ago|reply
Here's Danny Carey (Drummer from Tool) talking about this album and how the title track influenced his style. https://youtu.be/SsxSm1xCR-E?t=175 You can definitely hear how that song influenced Tool's signature sound years later.
[+] [-] zorr|4 years ago|reply
Those first few notes of Discipline had the same effect on me but s/Primus/Tool.
[+] [-] tom_softeng|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dhosek|4 years ago|reply
Over time, I became a bigger and bigger fan of Crimson. My favorite era was the 74–77 incarnation which shed a member with each album until it finally collapsed, although the current line-up which has focused entirely on live performance is just amazing. I regret not getting the chance to see them live, and suspect that between Covid and the aging of the band that I never will see them live, but it's a truly amazing group of musicians (albeit one whose membership has been unstable since the start. The 80s trilogy of albums was the longest run without a lineup change in the band's history.)
[+] [-] consumer451|4 years ago|reply
The lyrics and the main groove of this song auto-play in my brain at least once a month. These words must resonate with other people here. They must.
> [Verse 1]
> I do remember one thing
> It took hours and hours but..
> By the time I was done with it
> I was so involved, I didn't know what to think
> I carried it around with me for days and days..
> Playing little games
> Like not looking at it for a whole day
> And then, looking at it
> To see if I still liked it
> I did
> [Verse 2]
> I repeat myself when under stress
> I repeat myself when under stress
> I repeat myself when under stress
> I repeat myself when under stress
> I repeat-
> The more I look at it
> The more I like it
> Heh, I do think it's good
> The fact is...
> No matter how closely I study it
> No matter how I take it apart
> No matter how I'll break it down
> It remains consistent
> I wish you were here to see it!
> [Outro]
> I like it
Interestingly, it looks like King Crimson has recently officially uploaded the goods to YT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH3phKBbVLs
[+] [-] yardshop|4 years ago|reply
This and Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair were continuously played back in those days.
I remember repeatedly calling my local classic rock radio station requesting Frame by Frame. They never played it, unsurprisingly!
Another favorite from a few years before is Fripp's solo album Exposure [1]. Great vocals on some tracks by Darrell Hall of Hall and Oates. Changed my thinking about that guy! Also a wonderful version of Here Comes the Flood with Peter Gabriel, with great Frippertronics going on throughout. Great stuff!
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZA3qLXj8bA
[+] [-] dhosek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WarOnPrivacy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dingosity|4 years ago|reply
i absolutely love exposure and it's still on heavy rotation at chez criptid.
[+] [-] moogly|4 years ago|reply
Most bands decline over the years, but not King Crimson. That said, I have to say the double trio lineup is my favorite era of theirs.
The only other band that IMO comes close in keeping high quality for 50 years is probably Magma. The only difference is that they're mostly staying the same (not in a bad way, mind you), and not necessarily reinventing themselves. Instead they're just getting more refined.
[+] [-] slothtrop|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dhosek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whichdan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thedailymail|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zabzonk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bloopernova|4 years ago|reply
Push and Profit https://www.amazon.com/Push-Profit-Discipline/dp/B000260FRA/
Unfolded Like Staircase https://www.amazon.com/Unfolded-Like-Staircase-Discipline/dp...
Funnily enough, I listened to Discipline (the band) before listening to Discipline (the album).
King Crimson fans should give Push and Profit a listen at the very least :)
[+] [-] connorlay|4 years ago|reply
- a person who has a Discipline tattoo on their right forearm
[+] [-] klelatti|4 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrXgcp01JaI
[+] [-] dhosek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WarOnPrivacy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] i_like_apis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] denton-scratch|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SkipperCat|4 years ago|reply