I'd prefer to keep my finances private, thanks. No good can come from nosey-ass family members, scammers, sales people, etc knowing this kind of information.
It doesn't fight against tax evasion or anything, because the wealthy of the world will have yet another incentive to mask their income / assets through any of the number of mechanisms currently available.
If you want pay transparency to fight pay inequality, then anonymized pay based on role / job title should suffice.
Any legitimate need for such information can either be obtained through asking, or through the courts. At least then, I have a say in the matter and a right to defend myself in cases where I believe it necessary.
People are entitled to privacy. I wouldn't want random people knowing my salary anymore than I'd want them knowing what medications I take.
You're getting a bunch of replies about different interpretations of the "American Dream" - interpretations that are not at all consistent with either the mainstream concept or the historical one.
Typically the "American Dream" has been centrally about freedom of opportunity, independent of social class or circumstances of birth, and the resulting possibility for upward social mobility through hard work (e.g. America as the Land of Opportunity). I think it's quite hard to argue that the United States is a leader in this category in the same way that it was 50 or 100 years ago.
What business is it of yours what other people are paid? I can't begin to understand why you would want to know, still less why you think you have a right to know.
The irony here is that the true American Dream is less oversight, less governance, less laws, less restraint, and more freedom/trust. Most Americans just want to live and let live.
A good portion of the United States is against any sort of identification system in general. It’s why voting is so complicated. Some kind open income system in unfathomable to the vast majority of Americans.
I always heard that salary data was available in Norway but high end streamers are probably running these funds through a corporation. Does Norway have essentially open books for firms?
From my perspective, in American culture very few people are mature enough to handle discussing income without feeling a hugely inflated ego or completely inferior to their peers. (Maybe true elsewhere but I can't speak to those places!) The reason it's kept secret is because people can't help but turn it into the proverbial dick measuring or whatever is a more polite way of putting it.
As for the American Dream, it still strikes me as integral the American Dream, I think you just have a different idea of how you wish it was.
EDIT: Also from what I've heard anecdotally, Americans are actually more open about money than most other countries, especially Scandinavian ones.
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to migrate to Scandinavia as an American? I've long felt the ideals i cherish as an American are just not the ideals of America. Maybe America isn't wrong, i'm just not American. I want:
A country which values it's citizens health and happiness in measurable, quantifiable ways.
A country which ensures it's citizens can be educated and follow their passions to financial success.
A country which allows even poor citizens to take risks like opening a business or going to school _(if you can call that a risk)_ without going into crippling debt or becoming homeless if you fail.
A country where a health emergency won't leave middle class workers in crippling debt.
A country where a job is enough to ensure you can have a roof over your head and food on the table.
Scandinavia may or may not match all of those, but that's not my point - it feels to me Americans don't want this. To me Americans value "freedom" (as ephemeral as that may be) and low taxes so heavily that the above items are nearly irrelevant if they conflict with that.
This isn't a dig at America, rather i'm simply saying maybe i need to stop voting so "lefty" and find some place more inline with myself?
You know, it's pretty eye opening, to see that many streamers make millions in just a few months, while it would take me more than 50 years of constant work in my country to make a single million. Though looking at the top earners is probably very demoralizing if you don't also see the median and average figures, which i'm curious to see.
Someone actually did a writeup of some of their personal findings, though i'm sure that we'll see more in the following weeks: https://sizeof.cat/post/twitch-leaks/
Of course, i can also understand that those with a lot of money probably don't want others to know how much they make, while those that are making less money sometimes don't want to be confronted with the truth because it's so depressing. Regardless, if nothing else, it's educational to see things like these and have them become a piece of humanity's history.
> In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness.
It might work in Norway where there is basically zero violent crime, but in many parts of the world outing yourself as a millionaire is a great way to get yourself or your family kidnapped.
>In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness.
Given that one strategy for businesses is to optimize monetary intake by tailoring prices to how much specific customers can pay and often this tailoring is facilitated by stuff like checking if you are using an iphone or an android phone etc. etc. - if you use your name and address to login to a service and you are from Norway could they look up how much money you make and more precisely tailor their prices for what you are able to pay?
If so, boy, that letting people know exactly how much money you have thing is great.
I think that takes a fundamentally different society than the US to work. There are many many have-nots in the US and public knowledge like this would put legitimate threat of harm on many people.
The UK forces private companies to share some high level financial information publicly on Companies House. As a non-UK company, I can spy on my UK competitors' finances while they cannot spy on mine. Insanity.
And given how the average person experiences jealousy, I wouldn't want salaries to be public. I already feel uncomfortable when family members ask me how much money I make, because I know they'd only use it to compare themselves to. This kind of comparison is toxic in society.
I wonder how pay transparency impacts the variance of job-to-job and industry-to-industry pay. If you hear that you can make a bunch more by changing jobs, you're more likely to, forcing the industry to keep up and pay more. Does more pay transparency reduct some kind of "friction" in the market reaching equilibrium?
Privacy is, contrary to much discourse particular on HN or the tech circles in general, primarily a tool for the powerful. (this is why crypto-anything has always interested libertarians moire than everyone else, they correctly recognize that it is a tool to escape (fiscal) authority).
Transparency and expansion of the public sphere generally has equalizing effects, expansion of the private sphere the opposite. This is I think relevant in particular for people in the US who seek to emulate Scandinavia, because they ironically seem to be some of the biggest opponents to anything that conjures up notions of 'surveillance'.
> It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia
It should strike you as weird, because that's false.
The American Dream can be best lived by Scandinavians in the US. Scandinavians do better in the US than they do in Scandinavia and that has been true for the past century. Among the US population, people from Scandinavia and or of Scandinavian descent produce exceptional outcomes.
Comparing primary demographics to primary demographics, white Americans are richer than white Scandinavians at both the median and average. They have higher incomes and greater wealth. And Scandinavians in the US are far richer than Scandinavians in Scandinavia, at both the median and average.
If Scandinavia is so great, how come their people do so much better here and always have? Scandinavian culture + the US system = vastly superior outcome.
Yet somehow the majority of streamers on the platform make absolutely nothing...
Wealth inequality is underlying in "creator fund" money making as well. The algorithms are skewed towards people that are already rich, popular, and/or well connected. The few people that make it up the ladder from humble beginnings might well be people who were let in to cover the real underpinnings of non-transparent creator economies.
Those few "came up from nothing" success stories may literally well be false encouragement or fabrication just to keep platform engagement and related consumerism up.
Kind of like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch.
What you choose to support and invest in matters too.
1) The skill/ability curve is going to look really consistent with the earnings curve, just like in anything, similar to sports.
2) 'Creators fund' is marginal - having a few extra dollars for a microphone is not going to bring in more viewers for a stream. Far from 'false economy' it's probably something akin to very efficient. If there is inefficiency, it's about who is highlighted by the platform.
3) Barriers to entry are very low, and every joe blow is nipping at the heels of established streamers, many of whom have spent a long time building their audiences.
4) This should be thought of more like athleticism: it's popularity, brand, personality and skill, it's populist and short-lived, very risky, and extremely competitive/open to anyone.
" like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch." Well this is some cynical stuff, I'm not sure what to say.
Is there any support for the claims on various reddit threads that the figures represent maybe half or less of actual earnings? Not sure if maybe it's only subs not tips, or only ad revenue not subs....
I'm using this with the latest stable libtorrent and rtorrent releases and it's working great so far. Getting around 100 MB/s download rate from the swarm.
Yep! Several that I watch that only draw about 300-500 viewers in a session have taken in > six figures. Even over two years that's a heck of a supplementary income (they both have day jobs afaik from their commentary)
[+] [-] janandonly|4 years ago|reply
In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness.
It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia
[+] [-] mywittyname|4 years ago|reply
It doesn't fight against tax evasion or anything, because the wealthy of the world will have yet another incentive to mask their income / assets through any of the number of mechanisms currently available.
If you want pay transparency to fight pay inequality, then anonymized pay based on role / job title should suffice.
Any legitimate need for such information can either be obtained through asking, or through the courts. At least then, I have a say in the matter and a right to defend myself in cases where I believe it necessary.
People are entitled to privacy. I wouldn't want random people knowing my salary anymore than I'd want them knowing what medications I take.
[+] [-] ravitation|4 years ago|reply
Typically the "American Dream" has been centrally about freedom of opportunity, independent of social class or circumstances of birth, and the resulting possibility for upward social mobility through hard work (e.g. America as the Land of Opportunity). I think it's quite hard to argue that the United States is a leader in this category in the same way that it was 50 or 100 years ago.
[+] [-] Veen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whalesalad|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trixie_|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] willcipriano|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] warent|4 years ago|reply
As for the American Dream, it still strikes me as integral the American Dream, I think you just have a different idea of how you wish it was.
EDIT: Also from what I've heard anecdotally, Americans are actually more open about money than most other countries, especially Scandinavian ones.
[+] [-] plandis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] da_chicken|4 years ago|reply
Many things make sense for a largely homogenous nation of 5.5 million that stop making sense for a largely heterogenous nation of 330 million.
[+] [-] FredPret|4 years ago|reply
In Scandinavia, you have the radical lack of privacy you just mentioned as a feature (!!!) as well as eye-watering taxes.
Now, in the States, the government spies on you, but at least they don’t publish their findings.
[+] [-] lijogdfljk|4 years ago|reply
A country which values it's citizens health and happiness in measurable, quantifiable ways.
A country which ensures it's citizens can be educated and follow their passions to financial success.
A country which allows even poor citizens to take risks like opening a business or going to school _(if you can call that a risk)_ without going into crippling debt or becoming homeless if you fail.
A country where a health emergency won't leave middle class workers in crippling debt.
A country where a job is enough to ensure you can have a roof over your head and food on the table.
Scandinavia may or may not match all of those, but that's not my point - it feels to me Americans don't want this. To me Americans value "freedom" (as ephemeral as that may be) and low taxes so heavily that the above items are nearly irrelevant if they conflict with that.
This isn't a dig at America, rather i'm simply saying maybe i need to stop voting so "lefty" and find some place more inline with myself?
[+] [-] KronisLV|4 years ago|reply
Someone actually did a writeup of some of their personal findings, though i'm sure that we'll see more in the following weeks: https://sizeof.cat/post/twitch-leaks/
Of course, i can also understand that those with a lot of money probably don't want others to know how much they make, while those that are making less money sometimes don't want to be confronted with the truth because it's so depressing. Regardless, if nothing else, it's educational to see things like these and have them become a piece of humanity's history.
[+] [-] dlisboa|4 years ago|reply
It might work in Norway where there is basically zero violent crime, but in many parts of the world outing yourself as a millionaire is a great way to get yourself or your family kidnapped.
[+] [-] duxup|4 years ago|reply
Generally I'd respect those folks rights to have that info remain private. They can always share if they want.
[+] [-] bryanrasmussen|4 years ago|reply
Given that one strategy for businesses is to optimize monetary intake by tailoring prices to how much specific customers can pay and often this tailoring is facilitated by stuff like checking if you are using an iphone or an android phone etc. etc. - if you use your name and address to login to a service and you are from Norway could they look up how much money you make and more precisely tailor their prices for what you are able to pay?
If so, boy, that letting people know exactly how much money you have thing is great.
[+] [-] 908B64B197|4 years ago|reply
That just means the very rich need more creative accountants.
"See I don't own the jet, per se, I just own a majority of shares in a corporation headquartered in Cyprus that owns said asset"
> It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia
I don't think the American Dream is really compatible with Janteloven
https://www.lifeinnorway.net/what-exactly-is-janteloven/
[+] [-] gmadsen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0xy|4 years ago|reply
And given how the average person experiences jealousy, I wouldn't want salaries to be public. I already feel uncomfortable when family members ask me how much money I make, because I know they'd only use it to compare themselves to. This kind of comparison is toxic in society.
[+] [-] oh_sigh|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6gvONxR4sf7o|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tinus_hn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|4 years ago|reply
Transparency and expansion of the public sphere generally has equalizing effects, expansion of the private sphere the opposite. This is I think relevant in particular for people in the US who seek to emulate Scandinavia, because they ironically seem to be some of the biggest opponents to anything that conjures up notions of 'surveillance'.
[+] [-] adventured|4 years ago|reply
It should strike you as weird, because that's false.
The American Dream can be best lived by Scandinavians in the US. Scandinavians do better in the US than they do in Scandinavia and that has been true for the past century. Among the US population, people from Scandinavia and or of Scandinavian descent produce exceptional outcomes.
Comparing primary demographics to primary demographics, white Americans are richer than white Scandinavians at both the median and average. They have higher incomes and greater wealth. And Scandinavians in the US are far richer than Scandinavians in Scandinavia, at both the median and average.
If Scandinavia is so great, how come their people do so much better here and always have? Scandinavian culture + the US system = vastly superior outcome.
[+] [-] winternett|4 years ago|reply
Wealth inequality is underlying in "creator fund" money making as well. The algorithms are skewed towards people that are already rich, popular, and/or well connected. The few people that make it up the ladder from humble beginnings might well be people who were let in to cover the real underpinnings of non-transparent creator economies.
Those few "came up from nothing" success stories may literally well be false encouragement or fabrication just to keep platform engagement and related consumerism up.
Kind of like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch.
What you choose to support and invest in matters too.
[+] [-] jollybean|4 years ago|reply
1) The skill/ability curve is going to look really consistent with the earnings curve, just like in anything, similar to sports.
2) 'Creators fund' is marginal - having a few extra dollars for a microphone is not going to bring in more viewers for a stream. Far from 'false economy' it's probably something akin to very efficient. If there is inefficiency, it's about who is highlighted by the platform.
3) Barriers to entry are very low, and every joe blow is nipping at the heels of established streamers, many of whom have spent a long time building their audiences.
4) This should be thought of more like athleticism: it's popularity, brand, personality and skill, it's populist and short-lived, very risky, and extremely competitive/open to anyone.
" like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch." Well this is some cynical stuff, I'm not sure what to say.
[+] [-] tda|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ballenf|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ssalka|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mikeb85|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VikingCoder|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yellow_lead|4 years ago|reply
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:N5BLZ6XECNEHHARHJOVQAS4W7TWRXCSI&dn=twitch-leaks-part-one&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce
[+] [-] skeletron|4 years ago|reply
If anyone needs to only download and not seed the torrent at all (to avoid potential copyright infringement action), there's a patch for libtorrent available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160625100706/citylight.thinkba....
I'm using this with the latest stable libtorrent and rtorrent releases and it's working great so far. Getting around 100 MB/s download rate from the swarm.
[+] [-] agumonkey|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wingy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cyberpsybin|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codezero|4 years ago|reply