Crude analysis of gender pay gap. What is the difference in experience level, hours worked, industry, etc.? Pay gap "headed in the wrong direction" could easily be more women entering the field at a junior level, which would actually be heading in the right direction.
I rarely see these discussions encompass minority populations. With an astounding amount of tech work being done by minority/immigrant populations, I always find it’s a voice that’s missing.
More formally, this is the origin story for Simpson's paradox: when you combine subgroups, trends can disappear or even reverse. The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get.
This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women earning equal pay with men. People who want social change (activists, politicans) group together the entire population, and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE, occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never eliminated!
It's also self-reported. Men, they say, in general are "bolder". That translates to over-stating and/or those with something to "brag" about are more likely to respond.
These numbers have more to do with who is responding to the optional IEEE benefits survey (the IEEE target demographic) than it does actual salaries.
There is a lot that seems odd with these numbers and they do not appear to be not very representative as they are poorly sampled and undersampled. the very first chart shows slow steady growth and in the others we see tons of massive jumps - for instance they show median male salary jumping from 112k in 2018 to 156k in 2020. That would be an insane jump for an entire industry in 2 years (unless the sampling is poor as is the case here).
while we are fighting over gender and race gaps, we fail to notice the gap between tech salaries and salaries of marketing and sales executives, C level roles, lawyers and so on.
Agree completely, that's why they say the biggest decline in recent years has been the middle class, so much attention in making sure everyone in the middle is equally in the middle, and less focus on the fact that the middle is itself on a decline.
Most sales reps are not especially well-compensated... it is a brutal job. The sales superstars and sales execs earn a lot but IMO absolutely deserve it. Any of those guys work WAY harder than any software dev. And have no idea how much money they're going to make until last day of the quarter. Rough stuff.
Lawyers I can see the case against, but remember that they are paying off a ton of debt, and missed a couple years of earnings in law school.
It's true, but if we do manage to mostly equalize those (and in an ideal world they would be!), it will really sharpen the criticism of the top because there will be nothing left to divide us.
Sales people will always be close to the money, by definition, and C-suite will always have the most equity (because they carry the most risk by dint of them being the face of the company).
The markets were white hot during COVID, and while lots of businesses suffered, lots went to the god damn moon
Geez, where the heck do any of these people work?!? I am a unix/linux expert, Ph.D. in computer engineering, and have been a tenure track professor (left to go back to systems administration due to an emergency which caused a family move).
Honestly, I have a lot of good experience. I thought I had a good job. I do not make anywhere near what the lowest of those salaries are, and my B.S. is not only in EECE, but I have a lot of analog design experience. Wholy mackerel, where do I sign up for the bottom of the line entry level position at any of those places?
Doesn’t EE/CE stuff generally cap out lower than software?
But anyway I feel you’re experience in regards to salary is going to depend on a number of different things like the market/industry/domain you’re in the market/industry/domain you started or established yourself in, etc.
Would have liked to see these numbers adjusted for cost of living. Making $145,000 in silicon valley is not anywhere comparable to making $145,000 in Podunk Florida, and thus I'm not sure what value to derive from this data, with respect to my own earnings.
Just scroll down and they provide a regional breakdown and the median difference is about 20k. So it actually makes sense for the median engineer to move to a cheaper location.
These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. Which kinds of people are participating in this IEEE study? I bet those people fit into different demographics and receive different compensation relative to the rest of tech.
The real comp numbers are much higher, since these numbers exclude profit sharing, which is greater than base salary for an experience engineer at Big Tech.
Recognizing that the odds of this thread turning into a ****show are high, a piece of general advice:
Note whatever you feel compelled to say within the first 5 minutes of your deciding to leave a comment here. Discard it. Write an entirely new comment. Post that instead.
yep, its telling that most of the comments are rushing to make excuses as to why what the article says might not be true.
Not to say the article is the gospel truth, and something unexpected might be occurring, but the fact that it seems to be poster's first reflex says a lot.
This really does frustrate me - that racism is usually seen in the spectrum of the "whites vs blacks" narrative - but Asian-Americans are usually disregarded, or it's not "real" racism.
Sure, they don't have the same pay disparity as blacks (although there is still inequality within the cohort itself) - however, that's largely been a result of higher educational attainment, and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the barriers they've had to overcome to get to that level.
However, there is still a level of casual racism - and even in the last year, a lot of anti-Asian assaults across America.
Also, this is an anecdote, in many places I've worked at, it's very common that management and above are mostly white males, but all the Asians are non-management. I've wondered how much of that is due to some cultural issue, versus how much is due to some bias in the system.
> Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians instead?
The problem isn't so much what value you put on the groups, as the gap itself.
Think of it more generically:
gap<Race, Salary>
Anytime you'd see a big gap, it would be cause for concern, because we value that similar work should provide similar compensation no matter your race.
And if you see that the gap is caused by the distribution of the type of work, for example, raceX is more likely to do work that pays more than raceZ. Well that's also an issue, because we value equal opportunity between races, and the assumption is if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races, especially for highly paid professions. At least it shouldn't show that without a clear explanation as to why that might be, which we don't have today.
I understand 100% where you come from with that comment, it can get annoying to feel personally blamed for inequality, where the real blame could be historical, or accidental, but I'd only say to try and be the better man, and get past that, because focusing on the "blame" both as a recipient or activist wanting to lash it out is counterproductive, keep the focus on the issue and discussions of solutions I think is the healthy path forward for everyone.
And you're right, articles like this one could also try harder at that.
[+] [-] johnnyb9|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gremloni|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jldugger|4 years ago|reply
This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women earning equal pay with men. People who want social change (activists, politicans) group together the entire population, and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE, occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never eliminated!
What I'd really like to do some day is be smart enough to replicate https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-wh... and see how more recent census data compares.
[+] [-] oingodoingo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chiefalchemist|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jjcon|4 years ago|reply
There is a lot that seems odd with these numbers and they do not appear to be not very representative as they are poorly sampled and undersampled. the very first chart shows slow steady growth and in the others we see tons of massive jumps - for instance they show median male salary jumping from 112k in 2018 to 156k in 2020. That would be an insane jump for an entire industry in 2 years (unless the sampling is poor as is the case here).
[+] [-] stagger87|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] b20000|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] didibus|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bpodgursky|4 years ago|reply
Lawyers I can see the case against, but remember that they are paying off a ton of debt, and missed a couple years of earnings in law school.
[+] [-] tehjoker|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunez|4 years ago|reply
Sales people will always be close to the money, by definition, and C-suite will always have the most equity (because they carry the most risk by dint of them being the face of the company).
The markets were white hot during COVID, and while lots of businesses suffered, lots went to the god damn moon
[+] [-] readingnews|4 years ago|reply
Honestly, I have a lot of good experience. I thought I had a good job. I do not make anywhere near what the lowest of those salaries are, and my B.S. is not only in EECE, but I have a lot of analog design experience. Wholy mackerel, where do I sign up for the bottom of the line entry level position at any of those places?
[+] [-] bitcoinmoney|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_only_law|4 years ago|reply
But anyway I feel you’re experience in regards to salary is going to depend on a number of different things like the market/industry/domain you’re in the market/industry/domain you started or established yourself in, etc.
[+] [-] mbrodersen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WrathOfJay|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjg007|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rank0|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eulers_secret|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] throwawayhacka|4 years ago|reply
Sometimes this stuff really bums me out..time to get on leetcode I guess!
[+] [-] bitcoinmoney|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheDudeMan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arenaninja|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbob45|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsanr|4 years ago|reply
Note whatever you feel compelled to say within the first 5 minutes of your deciding to leave a comment here. Discard it. Write an entirely new comment. Post that instead.
[+] [-] throwaway2048|4 years ago|reply
Not to say the article is the gospel truth, and something unexpected might be occurring, but the fact that it seems to be poster's first reflex says a lot.
[+] [-] dudul|4 years ago|reply
On the graph: White - 155k Black - 130k Asian - 156k
Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians instead?
[+] [-] victorhooi|4 years ago|reply
Sure, they don't have the same pay disparity as blacks (although there is still inequality within the cohort itself) - however, that's largely been a result of higher educational attainment, and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the barriers they've had to overcome to get to that level.
However, there is still a level of casual racism - and even in the last year, a lot of anti-Asian assaults across America.
Also, this is an anecdote, in many places I've worked at, it's very common that management and above are mostly white males, but all the Asians are non-management. I've wondered how much of that is due to some cultural issue, versus how much is due to some bias in the system.
[+] [-] didibus|4 years ago|reply
The problem isn't so much what value you put on the groups, as the gap itself.
Think of it more generically:
Anytime you'd see a big gap, it would be cause for concern, because we value that similar work should provide similar compensation no matter your race.And if you see that the gap is caused by the distribution of the type of work, for example, raceX is more likely to do work that pays more than raceZ. Well that's also an issue, because we value equal opportunity between races, and the assumption is if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races, especially for highly paid professions. At least it shouldn't show that without a clear explanation as to why that might be, which we don't have today.
I understand 100% where you come from with that comment, it can get annoying to feel personally blamed for inequality, where the real blame could be historical, or accidental, but I'd only say to try and be the better man, and get past that, because focusing on the "blame" both as a recipient or activist wanting to lash it out is counterproductive, keep the focus on the issue and discussions of solutions I think is the healthy path forward for everyone.
And you're right, articles like this one could also try harder at that.
[+] [-] tentakull|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] project2501a|4 years ago|reply