Several years ago, the discussion around cryptocurrency often centered on the valuable uses it could have. Now that it's been around for quite some time, how are people using it, in terms of useful functionality?
I know very little about the subject, but my initial thoughts lead to things like ransonware payments, money laundering, etc. Certainly there are other useful ways that people regularly use cryptocurrency. What are they?
It's kind of frustrating because I don't know a single person (besides myself) who uses crypto for anything but investing. Maybe one person because they bought an NFT (also for investment).
I felt like games/fantasy sports/betting would have come online by now. But, actually using crypto to buy anything is usually a convoluted process.
For betting and fantasy sports, you have better options. Most the games are still fumbling around/obvious vaporware. Your best bet is probably Axie Infinity, and it's not very fun, and also hard to play for free. Also, 80% of the people playing these games are using them for income streams, so they get min-maxed to hell, and there is even more botting than usual.
All of these altcoins, even bitcoin to a degree, are all barely usable unless you're letting them sit on an exchange somewhere.
I've had a good experience purchasing a good or service with exactly one altcoin.
Even all the DeFi stuff you hear about in articles/podcasts is too complicated, or you're going to have to pay $500 in gas fees to do anything.
It's pretty obvious most of the people who are "into" crypto, aren't really doing anything with it besides honing their investment skills once you actually talk to them about what they do with it.
Yes, the criminal uses are dominating the non-criminal, but the non-criminal continue to mature.
The way to think about it is that crypto is reinventing all of the historical aspects and nuances both of money and also of public systems of record- both of which are millenia old- on a much faster timeline.
There are orders of magnitude more people alive and participating in this money/ledger maturation process than all the previous times put together, of course. Much of the learning is just being implemented, rather than discovered. (Many of the mistakes, however, are being rediscovered.) So it is going very fast, but there is still a LOT to cover.
I would posit the system of record use cases are much more profound than the money use cases. Those are still years away- we don't really know how far- but it appears to me the infrastructure is still on track to have a role there.
In response to a question- in X years will there be jurisdictions using public blockchains for, eg Real Property ledger, rather than the mix of paper and digital non-blockchain systems variously in use now- I would say yes, and put greater than 50% odds that X is less than 10.
Real Property ledger is much more important than money. You can use any old thing for money, but in any civilization there is only one Real Property ledger.
Someone who is not me regularly buys LSD with monero for what it's worth and the shopping experience is almost Amazon level, next day shipping included.
Cryptocurrency has three successful use cases. One is speculation, hoping to profit from coin value increasing over time. Two is enabling nefarious activity such as ransomware payoffs and buying illicit drugs, weapons, illegal pornography, etc. Three is money laundering.
It’s served me well to be able to hold money when stocks seem really high, without being coerced by inflationary policy to throw more money into a bloated stock market by our political masters.
I recall that at the start of 2020, people were posting predictions for the next decade, and one guy predicted Bitcoin would reach $100k. In fact, he predicted it would reach $100k by the end of the year, IIRC. I take the opposite view; crypto mania will fizzle out in the next few years, leading to a corresponding decline in BTC and ETH prices. People bought crypto without belief in its intrinsic value or any intention of using it to buy goods, but rather because they hoped it's price would increase - the very definition of speculation.
Well, there was not such a thing as intrinsic value in neither cryptos nor in any fiats. Fiats at least are backed by the governments. For cryptos, there is nothing backing them nor would anyone really believe in them. The only potential value is to speculate. They claim to have resolved centralization issue but ironically people speculate cryptos in centralized exchanges. Centralization in financial areas are there for a reason, it just cannot be resolved by decentralization and that why people need crypto exchanges.
As a matter of fact, lots of regulations are on the way, and some countries go further even try to criminalize them, which will accelerate the decline for sure. Myself actually tried to speculate BTC in late 2008 or early 2009 which I cannot remember exactly, as I was pretty sure people were going to speculate in it. It was shame that I was too early, the price was super low ($0.001 or might be $0.01) but there was no venue for me to buy any. The next time BTC returned to my sight was around 2017, the price went up to $1000. I chilled out thought those people were crazy. But it turned out they were actually much crazier than I speculated. I look forward to seeing how this drama is going to end.
I mean that’s what happened in 2017-2018 yet again we are repeating the same bubble. I guess these crazy run ups will end at some point but I see no indication this will be the last.
It’s not just speculation. It’s experimentation as well. The crypto community has been really playful in how they use and define money. There are wuite a few lessons that we have learned as a society that otherwise wouldn’t be so salient.
Things like:
What is trust?
Should we put our trust in technology instead of people?
Can we build a blockchain vm?
Can you censor blockchain technology? Or will people find ways around it?
Bitcoin will always hold some lower bound value, because there will always be 2.1 million willing to use $10 to see what happens.
Governments aren’t playful, people are. Playfulness can lead to recklessness and pain. It can also lead to artistic expression and innovation. IMO with cryptocurrencies, you see both.
I used to think the same way, but I now I believe BTC is here to stay. There is too much uncertainty in the mainstream monetary system. A bout of hyperinflation and everybody is wiped out. People are desperately looking for alternative value stores, even if imperfect.
At this point I am interested in pretty much anyone's perspective other than his. He bashes crypto, he makes money, his company builds something using crypto, he makes money. Just like his bank he is too big to fail and serves no one's interest but his own.
Gotta love when the Hacker News crowd sides with Wall Street kingpin Jamie Dimon just to own Bitcoin. This guy became a billionaire thanks to taxpayer subsidized bailouts after the 2008 crisis while regular people lost their homes, and while I don’t know that it is proven, it is very likely he was personally involved with or at the very least aware about the subprime mortgage derivative schemes that set off the entire thing.
Actual misinformation. Dimon's bank was one of the strongest ones and wasn't making or wholesaling subprime mortgages. It was able to acquire Bear Stearns for less than the value of Bear's real estate owned.
Bitcoin is important to a global industry worth around 2.8 trillion USD.
"A comparatively simple crime-economic model, constructed from readily available international databases, closely predicts a range of such expert assessments, and appears to offer a framework for determining and monitoring the size of money laundering flows around the world. Further research is required to complete the model, but the nature of that research is made clear, and it appears that existing data sources are likely to be adequate.
Initial output from the model suggests a global money laundering total of $2.85 trillion per year, heavily
concentrated in Europe and North America."
JPMorgan and friends are so hyperregulated they literally have regulators who sit in their offices, company officers who are required to report to regulators on a whim, regular scheduled updates with regulators, audits, etc. etc. there is probably no industry more regulated than finance.
It's already very , very heavily regulated. I remember in 2010 trading on etrade or ameritrade was a simple as filling out the form and wiring money, but with cryptooo there are tons of security checks, ID checks, verification, screening, blaocchain analysis to do anything.
I can tell you haven’t worked in a regulated industry, there is almost no regulation.
Most of the stuff you list is simple stuff done to meet KYC rules that most exchanges were initially delinquent in implementing and only did so when it was pointed out the obvious liability they were taking on not implementing them.
For regulated securities products there are all sort of approvals needed from the product itself to the marketing materials. There are rules about suitability of the product, transparency over commissions and fees, licensing and registration of market participants, market data rules.
If Jamie doesn't like it, I like it even more. At a first approximation, whatever is bad for JPMorgans and Goldman Sachs' of the world, has a high probability of being good for the rest of us.
I am not always crypto advocate but how can any person take this seriously, what a massive conflict of interest we have here. If I ran some large business I probably also would say some potential competitor was worthless and due for regulation. Maybe bitcoin is not a competitor, but maybe it is, and maybe some other "fintech" or "defi" is a future competitor, if Dimon tar Bitcoin as a bad scam tech now and get these regulations he is stopping future competition before it becomes any problem.
Here is one perspective on Bitcion: In a world where abundance is abundant (every day we have more cash, cars, etc..) scarcity by itself could manifest value. As per law of supply and demand.
He may be uninformed or outright wrong about Bitcoin, but he runs the largest investment bank in the world. A whole lot of people care what he thinks about financial matters, and even if he's wrong about Bitcoin, the fact that he holds that opinion is important in itself.
[+] [-] boplicity|4 years ago|reply
I know very little about the subject, but my initial thoughts lead to things like ransonware payments, money laundering, etc. Certainly there are other useful ways that people regularly use cryptocurrency. What are they?
[+] [-] xkfm|4 years ago|reply
I felt like games/fantasy sports/betting would have come online by now. But, actually using crypto to buy anything is usually a convoluted process.
For betting and fantasy sports, you have better options. Most the games are still fumbling around/obvious vaporware. Your best bet is probably Axie Infinity, and it's not very fun, and also hard to play for free. Also, 80% of the people playing these games are using them for income streams, so they get min-maxed to hell, and there is even more botting than usual.
All of these altcoins, even bitcoin to a degree, are all barely usable unless you're letting them sit on an exchange somewhere.
I've had a good experience purchasing a good or service with exactly one altcoin.
Even all the DeFi stuff you hear about in articles/podcasts is too complicated, or you're going to have to pay $500 in gas fees to do anything.
It's pretty obvious most of the people who are "into" crypto, aren't really doing anything with it besides honing their investment skills once you actually talk to them about what they do with it.
[+] [-] jonahbenton|4 years ago|reply
The way to think about it is that crypto is reinventing all of the historical aspects and nuances both of money and also of public systems of record- both of which are millenia old- on a much faster timeline.
There are orders of magnitude more people alive and participating in this money/ledger maturation process than all the previous times put together, of course. Much of the learning is just being implemented, rather than discovered. (Many of the mistakes, however, are being rediscovered.) So it is going very fast, but there is still a LOT to cover.
I would posit the system of record use cases are much more profound than the money use cases. Those are still years away- we don't really know how far- but it appears to me the infrastructure is still on track to have a role there.
In response to a question- in X years will there be jurisdictions using public blockchains for, eg Real Property ledger, rather than the mix of paper and digital non-blockchain systems variously in use now- I would say yes, and put greater than 50% odds that X is less than 10.
Real Property ledger is much more important than money. You can use any old thing for money, but in any civilization there is only one Real Property ledger.
[+] [-] mettamage|4 years ago|reply
El Salvador is experimenting.
Alternative form of payment on some sites (haven’t needed it yet)
[+] [-] thoughtstheseus|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomhodler84|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pennaMan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paul_f|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CheezeIt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gautamcgoel|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrjin|4 years ago|reply
As a matter of fact, lots of regulations are on the way, and some countries go further even try to criminalize them, which will accelerate the decline for sure. Myself actually tried to speculate BTC in late 2008 or early 2009 which I cannot remember exactly, as I was pretty sure people were going to speculate in it. It was shame that I was too early, the price was super low ($0.001 or might be $0.01) but there was no venue for me to buy any. The next time BTC returned to my sight was around 2017, the price went up to $1000. I chilled out thought those people were crazy. But it turned out they were actually much crazier than I speculated. I look forward to seeing how this drama is going to end.
[+] [-] x3sphere|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mettamage|4 years ago|reply
Things like:
What is trust?
Should we put our trust in technology instead of people?
Can we build a blockchain vm?
Can you censor blockchain technology? Or will people find ways around it?
Bitcoin will always hold some lower bound value, because there will always be 2.1 million willing to use $10 to see what happens.
Governments aren’t playful, people are. Playfulness can lead to recklessness and pain. It can also lead to artistic expression and innovation. IMO with cryptocurrencies, you see both.
[+] [-] angelzen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whatanorigtht|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wanderinghogan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1ark|4 years ago|reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/9t140h/jami...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jamie-dimons-own-bank-cryptoc...
https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgan-financial-advisors-...
[+] [-] craigc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spinchange|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naveen99|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ice_cream_suit|4 years ago|reply
"A comparatively simple crime-economic model, constructed from readily available international databases, closely predicts a range of such expert assessments, and appears to offer a framework for determining and monitoring the size of money laundering flows around the world. Further research is required to complete the model, but the nature of that research is made clear, and it appears that existing data sources are likely to be adequate.
Initial output from the model suggests a global money laundering total of $2.85 trillion per year, heavily concentrated in Europe and North America."
http://www.johnwalkercrimetrendsanalysis.com.au/ML%20method....
[+] [-] medo-bear|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] social_quotient|4 years ago|reply
https://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/banks-15b-in-fin...
https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/banks-have-been-fined-...
[+] [-] EugeneG|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|4 years ago|reply
The 'negative news on bull run, positive news on crash' legend seems strong.
[+] [-] bpodgursky|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frankbreetz|4 years ago|reply
Wouldn't things have been better for the middle class if the real estate industry was more heavily regulated in 2008?
[+] [-] paulpauper|4 years ago|reply
It's already very , very heavily regulated. I remember in 2010 trading on etrade or ameritrade was a simple as filling out the form and wiring money, but with cryptooo there are tons of security checks, ID checks, verification, screening, blaocchain analysis to do anything.
[+] [-] fieldcny|4 years ago|reply
Most of the stuff you list is simple stuff done to meet KYC rules that most exchanges were initially delinquent in implementing and only did so when it was pointed out the obvious liability they were taking on not implementing them.
For regulated securities products there are all sort of approvals needed from the product itself to the marketing materials. There are rules about suitability of the product, transparency over commissions and fees, licensing and registration of market participants, market data rules.
That’s all just the tip of the iceberg.
[+] [-] m0zg|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robotsteve2|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greesil|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] da_big_ghey|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pm90|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bla15e|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mnaei|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulpauper|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] caymanjim|4 years ago|reply