At this point, I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all.
Yes, they have lots of fish to fry right now, but if they can spend time arguing about incandescent light bulbs [1], surely there must be some time on the legislature to sort this mess out? The whole thing has turned from skirmish into full-on war in less than a couple of years. I can't imagine how much worse it's going to get.
How or why would Congress notice, let alone come to the conclusion that anything is "imploding" ?
From a non-techy perspective, nothing's really happening. Barring any Samsung Galaxy fans in Europe who saw the Tab delayed a few weeks. The practical impact of these sorts of things isn't immediate or obvious at all.
And from the perspective of an IP professional, or someone who regularly follows IP happenings, nothing notably new is happening. These lawsuits have been lobbed back and forth from tech companies in hot industry segments for decades now. It heats up in highly competitive markets, particularly those enjoying rapid innovation simply because the IP concerns aren't well settled. Consider the earlier days of the web or the biopharma industry not so long ago. There was no shortage of IP gamesmanship then.
The only thing particularly new here, is the level of coverage the tech press is giving the issue. Not least of all because "Apple", "Google" and "patent" are some of the most effective traffic generating keywords.
None of this is to say the state of affairs is good, or healthy. I'm just saying that if you're not a tech enthusiast with little context for IP actions, there's really no reason you'd see the current smartphone situation as being particularly new, different or dangerous.
> ... I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all.
You find it unfathomable that Congress, a body largely composed of lawyers, is not reacting to one of the greatest stimulus packages for lawyers?
I would find it unfathomable if they changed the status quo.
I'd like to point out that congress, as a whole, is a set of useless jackasses. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to do anything useful, about anything, ever.
If you're going to raise irrelevant political issues like lightbulbs, at least place the blame where it belongs, which is not on "Congress" generally, but on a few Texas House Republicans (Jo Barton in particular), who are idiotically attacking the idea of having standards to increase energy efficiency.
Placing the blame on Congress generally spreads the incorrect belief that all legislators and both parties are responsible for criminally stupid stuff like this. They're not.
Maybe the U.S. Congress sees law as one of the U.S. strong points and is using litigation as a way of bringing money into the U.S.
Look at how much Taiwanese money will be spent on U.S. lawyers. Yeah, Apple has to spend money too, but it's not leaving the country. HTC's money is new money to the country.
Joking aside, it would be a stupid and counterproductive policy, but probably better than what's happening. At least it would be a plan instead of a slow decline.
It'd be nice if Congress didn't stick its nose into the patent business until the dust clears and the best way forward is obvious to all. Given their recent history, it'd just turn into a fat-fingered partisan fight otherwise. :-/
Considering who owns Congress through campaign donations and given the "nature" of the tech industry to disrupt other industries, I can't imagine that there is any sympathy for the tech industry's problems on capitol hill.
If the industry waits for congress to sort it out it will be left waiting for years. Even the critical issues such as debt ceiling were down to the wire. Its the problem that the industry has to figure out within itself.
1. Large companies, as a whole, like them. So Republicans like them;
2. Trial lawyers definitely like them (software patents are the Lawyer Full Employment Act in all but name). Many Congressmen are lawyers. The Democratic Party is basically the political wing of the American Bar Association (eg it's Democrats who oppose tort reform of any kind) so Democrats like patents too;
3. They're currently being wielded by largely American companies. If American companies were seen as being victimized by foreign companies it would be a totally different political landscape; and
4. America is such a large market that it affects both local and foreign companies anyway so there is limited benefit to setting up shop elsewhere.
Personally I think (3) and (4) are the key to getting Congress to do something but I suspect that by the time either or both happen, it'll be far too late to fix.
America, as a whole, seems beholden to "old world thinking" when it comes to intellectual property. Just look at the mess of lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA (being tantamount to legalized extortion), copyright treaties negotiated in secret that want to put copyright infringement on the same level as terrorism, the Obama administration infested with ex-RIAA lawyers and so on.
The collective ignorance with respect to IP by the courts, the executive branch, the legislature and most people as a whole is staggering and until that changes don't expect much to change.
Given that patents in non-US countries tend to be weaker and harder to get, (3) is unlikely to change.
On the other hand, if America's growth stays anemic while Asia (and to a lesser extent South America) keep growing (which seems likely), (4) will take care of itself.
Well good. The nuclear war has finally started. Once everyone is obliterated, maybe some real change can finally be made.
Nobody is going to 'win' this war. Everyone who participates will be a loser, and at this point, nobody can afford not to participate.
If there aren't some serious cease-fires real soon, this is going to be a bloody battle.
In case anyone isn't following along: Imagine a scenario where every major piece of electronics equipment has been banned from sale in the United States.
This is an existential crisis for the smaller companies, but it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation.
The whole contest has numerous immediate benefits for Apple. Since they're making the lion's share of the money in smartphones, they win simply by raising the table stakes (i.e. litigation costs and court awards), which eat up a disproportionate share of their competitors' profits. It's not outrageous to think that their lawsuits pressured unprofitable Motorola to first threaten to sue other licencees and then sell to Google under extortionist conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if other struggling Android handset makers (LG?) moved to the fixed cost of Windows Phone 7 over the headache of Android-related litigation. Of course, the Motorola purchase incentivises profitable Android makers to hedge their bets on WP7, too.
In the end, I think that Apple will be pleased if the product of their litigation is not to drive Android out of the market, but to create a phone market much like the tablet market - the iPhone and then a mish-mash of odd looking (to the average consumer) competitors.
The thing about these patent suits is that they (almost) end up being settled out-of-court in a cross licencing deal. The terms of the deal are (almost) never public, which makes the patents seem more valid (the company can claim they have been licensed for huge amounts of money the next time they sue another company over them) .
The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position.
This. The end result of it all is going to be a cartel of mobile makers with cross-licensing agreements. They'll be able to keep competition out of the industry with patent litigation, so the price of mobiles will go up.
In the year 2015 will it be possible for newcomers to start new businesses?
Patents seem to be reaching a point where companies are grabbing everything that can be thought of and everyone arriving late to the scene is accused of thoughtcrime. Someone more charismatic, persistent and eloquent than me needs to start civil disobedience against patents.
Of course you can start a business. You just need to find a way to charge US customers from whereever you are (assuming that the credit card companies will block you if you ignore US lawsuits).
Or you just ignore the US market and target the rest of the world. Actually that's what already has partially happened in the banking/broker sector: Try to open a broker account at one of the European brokers and they'll very likely tell you that they don't want to have you as a customer because you are US citizen or resident (just happened to me some weeks ago). Of course the reason for the brokers aren't patents, but US regulations that would be too much of a hassle.
Software patents don't exist in my country. I could be blocked from trading in the states, but thats not my market anyway so I couldnt' care less.
I just read these threads because of morbid fascination. I truly don't understand the american psyche, its sooo foreign to me, it almost appears blood thirsty.
Unfortunately, big companies with shipping products have every incentive to settle by cross-licensing & royalties.
What we need is someone with deep pockets to form a patent troll and actually block shipping products rather settle. This will force big companies to lobby congress to fix software patents.
The government (lobbied by big companies) will convince the courts to block your injunction and force you to settle. You know, "risking national security by ruining the economy" or something.
I'm honestly afraid this is going to turn into another ridiculous partisan battle in congress that ends up with a terrible solution because of infighting.
Don't worry, a patent reform debate doesn't have the necessary television-appeal to turn into a real partisan battle. Unfortunately, the powerful interests it attracts may be even worse (for those seeking a non-terrible solution).
Wasn't there that article about people not being able to focus? The result of this patent war is that you will now be able to focus on whatever you're doing. See, problem solved! Lawyers to the rescue !
Majority of Congress are lawyers. Lawsuits like this help theirs colleagues to make more money. They are not going to cut the branch their profession is sitting on.
So at this point every company has dirtied its hands with Software patent suing. So I'm guessing pretty much nobody is about to try and stop the madness since it would make them seem as if they are hypocrites or whiners (these cases take forever to be resolved). Not sure any company out there is going to do much of anything to stop it.
But when companies fight over patents, does't that mean that they are putting money on R&D that will eventually drive all the field forward in the middle term? even if at some cost on the short term... Apple and HTC are not /just/ patent trolls.
...I find my own argument hard to swallow, but i just thought i had to offer ONE counter point to one patent posts on HN :)
[+] [-] Lewisham|14 years ago|reply
Yes, they have lots of fish to fry right now, but if they can spend time arguing about incandescent light bulbs [1], surely there must be some time on the legislature to sort this mess out? The whole thing has turned from skirmish into full-on war in less than a couple of years. I can't imagine how much worse it's going to get.
[1] http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html
[+] [-] roc|14 years ago|reply
From a non-techy perspective, nothing's really happening. Barring any Samsung Galaxy fans in Europe who saw the Tab delayed a few weeks. The practical impact of these sorts of things isn't immediate or obvious at all.
And from the perspective of an IP professional, or someone who regularly follows IP happenings, nothing notably new is happening. These lawsuits have been lobbed back and forth from tech companies in hot industry segments for decades now. It heats up in highly competitive markets, particularly those enjoying rapid innovation simply because the IP concerns aren't well settled. Consider the earlier days of the web or the biopharma industry not so long ago. There was no shortage of IP gamesmanship then.
The only thing particularly new here, is the level of coverage the tech press is giving the issue. Not least of all because "Apple", "Google" and "patent" are some of the most effective traffic generating keywords.
None of this is to say the state of affairs is good, or healthy. I'm just saying that if you're not a tech enthusiast with little context for IP actions, there's really no reason you'd see the current smartphone situation as being particularly new, different or dangerous.
[+] [-] jpdoctor|14 years ago|reply
You find it unfathomable that Congress, a body largely composed of lawyers, is not reacting to one of the greatest stimulus packages for lawyers?
I would find it unfathomable if they changed the status quo.
[+] [-] lallysingh|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bud|14 years ago|reply
Placing the blame on Congress generally spreads the incorrect belief that all legislators and both parties are responsible for criminally stupid stuff like this. They're not.
[+] [-] spodek|14 years ago|reply
Look at how much Taiwanese money will be spent on U.S. lawyers. Yeah, Apple has to spend money too, but it's not leaving the country. HTC's money is new money to the country.
Joking aside, it would be a stupid and counterproductive policy, but probably better than what's happening. At least it would be a plan instead of a slow decline.
[+] [-] pnathan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r00fus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barista|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cletus|14 years ago|reply
1. Large companies, as a whole, like them. So Republicans like them;
2. Trial lawyers definitely like them (software patents are the Lawyer Full Employment Act in all but name). Many Congressmen are lawyers. The Democratic Party is basically the political wing of the American Bar Association (eg it's Democrats who oppose tort reform of any kind) so Democrats like patents too;
3. They're currently being wielded by largely American companies. If American companies were seen as being victimized by foreign companies it would be a totally different political landscape; and
4. America is such a large market that it affects both local and foreign companies anyway so there is limited benefit to setting up shop elsewhere.
Personally I think (3) and (4) are the key to getting Congress to do something but I suspect that by the time either or both happen, it'll be far too late to fix.
America, as a whole, seems beholden to "old world thinking" when it comes to intellectual property. Just look at the mess of lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA (being tantamount to legalized extortion), copyright treaties negotiated in secret that want to put copyright infringement on the same level as terrorism, the Obama administration infested with ex-RIAA lawyers and so on.
The collective ignorance with respect to IP by the courts, the executive branch, the legislature and most people as a whole is staggering and until that changes don't expect much to change.
[+] [-] fpgeek|14 years ago|reply
On the other hand, if America's growth stays anemic while Asia (and to a lesser extent South America) keep growing (which seems likely), (4) will take care of itself.
[+] [-] wccrawford|14 years ago|reply
Nobody is going to 'win' this war. Everyone who participates will be a loser, and at this point, nobody can afford not to participate.
If there aren't some serious cease-fires real soon, this is going to be a bloody battle.
In case anyone isn't following along: Imagine a scenario where every major piece of electronics equipment has been banned from sale in the United States.
[+] [-] saturdaysaint|14 years ago|reply
This is an existential crisis for the smaller companies, but it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation.
The whole contest has numerous immediate benefits for Apple. Since they're making the lion's share of the money in smartphones, they win simply by raising the table stakes (i.e. litigation costs and court awards), which eat up a disproportionate share of their competitors' profits. It's not outrageous to think that their lawsuits pressured unprofitable Motorola to first threaten to sue other licencees and then sell to Google under extortionist conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if other struggling Android handset makers (LG?) moved to the fixed cost of Windows Phone 7 over the headache of Android-related litigation. Of course, the Motorola purchase incentivises profitable Android makers to hedge their bets on WP7, too.
In the end, I think that Apple will be pleased if the product of their litigation is not to drive Android out of the market, but to create a phone market much like the tablet market - the iPhone and then a mish-mash of odd looking (to the average consumer) competitors.
[+] [-] ww520|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nl|14 years ago|reply
The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position.
[+] [-] tsotha|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olliesaunders|14 years ago|reply
What do you mean by this exactly?
[+] [-] dman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gst|14 years ago|reply
Of course you can start a business. You just need to find a way to charge US customers from whereever you are (assuming that the credit card companies will block you if you ignore US lawsuits).
Or you just ignore the US market and target the rest of the world. Actually that's what already has partially happened in the banking/broker sector: Try to open a broker account at one of the European brokers and they'll very likely tell you that they don't want to have you as a customer because you are US citizen or resident (just happened to me some weeks ago). Of course the reason for the brokers aren't patents, but US regulations that would be too much of a hassle.
[+] [-] rjd|14 years ago|reply
I just read these threads because of morbid fascination. I truly don't understand the american psyche, its sooo foreign to me, it almost appears blood thirsty.
[+] [-] divtxt|14 years ago|reply
What we need is someone with deep pockets to form a patent troll and actually block shipping products rather settle. This will force big companies to lobby congress to fix software patents.
[+] [-] divtxt|14 years ago|reply
If you tried this, you would probably fail!
The government (lobbied by big companies) will convince the courts to block your injunction and force you to settle. You know, "risking national security by ruining the economy" or something.
[+] [-] tjsnyder|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marshray|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6ren|14 years ago|reply
and previous disputes http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml
[+] [-] antrix|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shriphani|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgregd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GHFigs|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] antrix|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrockway|14 years ago|reply
I for one welcome our new gadget-less future.
[+] [-] saraid216|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] napierzaza|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gcb|14 years ago|reply
But when companies fight over patents, does't that mean that they are putting money on R&D that will eventually drive all the field forward in the middle term? even if at some cost on the short term... Apple and HTC are not /just/ patent trolls.
...I find my own argument hard to swallow, but i just thought i had to offer ONE counter point to one patent posts on HN :)