I've never understood the criticism of Firefox on HN. I've been a happy user since 2004.
I viewed chrome the same as IE. Owned by a big US tech company that only cares about one thing, and that one thing isn't you or me, only what your and my data/views are worth.
As far as I'm concerned all criticism leveled at Firefox is neatly mitigated by the reality of what chrome is, spyware.
The criticism that people in these communities come up with is limited to button placement and pixel-to-pixel tab bar height, I wouldn't take any of it seriously. Especially in the current web browser climate, it's laughable. It's our moral obligation, as people with knowledge on the subject, to use Firefox.
I've expressed my distaste for the way Mozilla is managed again and again, and I hate the stupid stuff they do from the bottom of my heart, but there simply is no other choice.
At some level I understand when people on HN get mad at FF increasing the size of the tab bar and the occasional changes they make in the UI/UX. I've never had a major problem with them - it's been at most an hour of getting used to the new style, if at all - but I am honestly astounded by people who think it's a good reason to switch to Chrome. Cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Well, we should remember that Mozilla is essentially funded by Google. [1] I think they are trying to remedy that a little bit by selling VPNs, but that's probably not gonna work.
Brave is probably a better option if you want to "drop out". Unlike Firefox, it is not a dying browser, and it's monthly active users are increasing: https://brave.com/36m-mau/. They do have a cryptocurrency for relatively privacy-respecting ads thing (Brave Rewards), but you can easily opt out of that. (Also, we should not be puritans about this, developers have to eat too)
It is still based on Chromium. But that's probably more of a plus for the typical user who cares more about websites working correctly than browser diversity.
The "new" Firefox Mobile is a joke... they blocked thousands of extensions... Now only about 12 extensions total are available. I still use Firefox mobile v68.11.0esr even if unsupported.
> I've never understood the criticism of Firefox on HN
My only real criticism is that they keep making dumbass moves like putting ads in the address bar instead of trying to ask for money
Do a pro plan for silly people like me who would pay for a promise of no ads. Do an enterprise version of Firefox that hooks in to Active Directory or whatever for syncing
There is plenty of legitimate criticism of Firefox in its handling of web standards. For example, they've effectively ended development and support for PWAs on desktop, which would have blown up the future of desktop PWA development (a crucial functionality of the web, as far as most are concerned) if Firefox held a significant portion of the market.
The FF contributors make so many decisions that are just plain nonsensical and harmful to the progression of the web, as do Safari and Opera -- especially those two. And while nobody should ever trust Google's bastardization of Chromium, they and the Chromium contributors are really the only people pushing the web forward, while everyone else is desperately trying to pump the breaks on new APIs, for reasons nobody can explain. Reading a bug tracker thread for any of them is like surviving a 1980s BBS discussion between tape storage format elitists. Even when they're correct, they're all wrong because they're not thinking ahead, and we all lose because of it.
Same here. I’ve been using Firefox exclusively since the Firebug days, both for development and personal use. It has worked fantastically for me. But I have real issues whenever I try to use Chrome. I think it mostly comes down to what you are used to.
But chrome's security and performance is miles better than firefox.
The organization that overpays managerial people, fired technical talent, and funnels donations into political causes instead of browser development is not much better either.
My biggest criticism is that Mozilla removed the open-web RSS reader functionality and added a proprietary walled-garden Pocket read-it-later service. Are the two connected? I need to know.
I would love to switch to FF but the persona tabs in Chrome are just too convenient. I have a persona for Work, for Personal and Neither (spammy stuff of things I don’t want to get indexed recommendation engines etc). Is there a way to replicate it on FF?
i love firefox as secondary browser (mainly some performance issues or minor hickups with certain kinds of web apps that rely on certain animations) and also donate regularly to mozilla, but the dev tools are the main pain point for me. nothing beats the usability of chrome dev tools and working in firefox always makes me feel limited in little ways i cant even point my finger to. in effect my own apps are optimized for chrome first and only improved for firefox as second step wich will then lead to the same small problems making other people use it as secondary browser.
My criticism is simple: Firefox has like a 4% market share, but an entirely separate rendering engine from the other browsers.
As a web developer, my job is already to chase down spec-violating implementation bugs in Safari, Chrome, and Edge. Having one more user agent out there does me no good; I'm disinterested in increasing my pain to support a 4% userbase.
I'd rather browsing be the purview of one or two giant, well-regulated players than a thousand minorly-incompatible little flowers.
Seconded. Firefox is better than ever. Can't believe there isn't a Chromium derivative with multi-select, table selection, and shift+right click. Containers are also incredibly useful.
I wouldn’t say it’s pain at all. Containers are a killer feature and I can’t imagine going back to a browser that doesn’t let me have isolated browser tabs in the same window.
The bulk of financial support Mozilla gets comes from Google, they stopped being a real competitor in the browser scene years ago. You don't really have a choice when it comes to modern web browsers, maybe Safari is the "safest" / most privacy-aware choice you can make assuming you already bought into the Apple ecosystem. What else is there, the crypto-mining scam that is Brave or the ProGaming WebBrowser / Chinese backdoor aka Opera?
But really, you're better off using something avangard that some nerd came up with during the weekend. At least these hobbiests' browsers can be trusted to be not be evil & greedy.
What’s annoying with Firefox is how much it advertises.
Seriously, every time you start it, it opens one or even two tabs saying why Firefox loves you and protects you. It introduces nagging on the new tab page to tell you how much Firefox loves and protects you. It installs Pocket or has shortcuts to help you buy products that love and protect you.
Firefox also insists that you should create a Mozilla account and upload all your passwords over. Because they are so kind and protecting about your privacy.
Mozilla also fires people who donate to Christian charities for the beliefs they have (and yes, abortion is a belief, whichever side you are). Even if you are the founder of JS. Hear that: Mozilla fires people who are technically good, for political motivations. It’s as dystopian as it gets. They never apologized.
Mozilla is as dystopian as Google, and the worst evil usually sits with people who believe they are the good guys. In fact, they are sponsored by Google and share the same political slant.
> First, Google started to leverage its ownership of the largest web browser, Chrome, to track and target publishers’ audiences in order to sell Google’s advertising inventory. To make this happen, Google first introduced the ability for users to log into the Chrome browser. Then, Google began to steer users into doing this by using deceptive and coercive tactics. For example, Google started to automatically log users into Chrome if they logged into any Google service (e.g., Gmail or YouTube). In this way, Google took the users that choose not to log into Chrome and logged them in anyways. If a user tried to log out of Chrome in response, Google punished them by kicking them out of a Google product they were in the process of using (e.g., Gmail or YouTube). On top this, through another deceptive pattern, Google got these users to give the Chrome browser permission to track them across the open web and on independent publisher sites like The Dallas Morning News. These users also had to give Google permission to use this new Chrome tracking data to sell Google’s own ad space, permitting Google to use Chrome to circumvent reliance on cookie-tracking technology.
Yeah it was super annoying I had separate accounts for gmail/android and youtube. It is always a hassle to make sure im logged in with the correct account.
So it seems to me the most pressing issue is still creating a viable alternative to Google Search. I've tried to use Duck Duck Go and even Bing in the past but I've just not found the quality of the results to be nearly the same.
However - recently I've found G Search is getting steadily worse. They've made UX changes that make it harder to view cached pages, and it seems to ignore search operators frequently.
This is the biggest foothold to their dominance. YouTube, Gmail, Maps and everything else is in a supporting role to this core product.
Who is actively working on this and what is proving so challenging? What is stopping us from creating a viable Google clone, with the same level of high quality results?
Having a plan vs executing a plan are quite different things. I'm sure you could find all sorts of different "plans" that never came to fruition and stopped at the brainstorming/ideas phase.
It's nice to see the hypocrisy of the people who run these companies, who on the one hand virtue signal with all the woke nonsense externally, and yet behave immorally internally.
Google can both want to be hypocritical and continue to hire/promote people from marginalized communities and contribute to “woke” organizations (which to their credit, they seem to have, although recently we’ve seen the limits to what they will do).
> [...] Google went to market falsely telling publishers that adopting AMP would enhance page load times. But Google employees knew that AMP only improves the "median of performance" [...]
How on Earth does it NOT mean that AMP improves load times?
Not really surprising that states with major tech/datacenter presences aren't on this lawsuit: California, Colorado, Massachusetts, New York, Washington (state) and North Carolina all come to mind.
Welp, it's time to de-google my networks then. Facebook traffic is already blocked, now I wonder how much Web content I will lose when I block all google traffic.
I tried Chrome long ago. It was a fine browser. But the it tried to log me in way too hard and gave me the creepy feeling of being followed in a dark alley. I’m sure I could have turned off that functionality but the fact it even existed was unsettling and I knew then that this was not the browser for me. Not surprised in the least by these revelations.
A lot of people here saying to install Firefox in the comments for a thread about how Google goes to pretty much any lengths it can go manipulate the market in its favor, when Mozilla's funding comes almost entirely from Google and Mozilla has been making many suspiciously baffling and stupid decisions for years now to destroy its own market share, is really rich.
I use Firefox when I need a fat modern browser and not something like Netsurf or Nyxt, but that's mostly just a futile symbolic act of defiance on my part. Anyone who thinks Mozilla is the company they once were and that they really are trying to fight the good fight for the open web is kidding themselves. Their brand is being the underdog non-profit open web activism company, but I can't think of anything they've done to meaningfully fight for that. They've sure wasted a lot of time on stupid side projects and ad deals, and I guess they still have Gecko because the code already exists and it'd destroy any facade of competition in the browser market if they switched to Chromium, but if they really were the company people think they are they wouldn't have laid off so many critical teams in 2020. They certainly wouldn't have shitcanned the Servo project, really the only possible threat to Google's de facto monopoly over the web and the biggest meaningful way to fight for the open web.
I know it's been said a ton but the fact that they did that while giving their incompetent CEO a raise and are continuing to put funding into cancerous Web 3.0 shit (VR in the browser? really?) and dumb side projects like their VPN grift should be enough of an indicator to anyone with a brain that Mozilla is controlled opposition at this point and probably being paid off by Google to tank their market share. Maybe it sounds like I need to take my tinfoil hat off, but after everything that's been happening lately with Facebook and Google I don't think this is much of a stretch at all.
[+] [-] account-5|4 years ago|reply
I viewed chrome the same as IE. Owned by a big US tech company that only cares about one thing, and that one thing isn't you or me, only what your and my data/views are worth.
As far as I'm concerned all criticism leveled at Firefox is neatly mitigated by the reality of what chrome is, spyware.
[+] [-] kiryin|4 years ago|reply
I've expressed my distaste for the way Mozilla is managed again and again, and I hate the stupid stuff they do from the bottom of my heart, but there simply is no other choice.
[+] [-] d3nj4l|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finite_jest|4 years ago|reply
Brave is probably a better option if you want to "drop out". Unlike Firefox, it is not a dying browser, and it's monthly active users are increasing: https://brave.com/36m-mau/. They do have a cryptocurrency for relatively privacy-respecting ads thing (Brave Rewards), but you can easily opt out of that. (Also, we should not be puritans about this, developers have to eat too)
It is still based on Chromium. But that's probably more of a plus for the typical user who cares more about websites working correctly than browser diversity.
[1]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/041315/how-m...
[+] [-] is_true|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EastOfTruth|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] corobo|4 years ago|reply
My only real criticism is that they keep making dumbass moves like putting ads in the address bar instead of trying to ask for money
Do a pro plan for silly people like me who would pay for a promise of no ads. Do an enterprise version of Firefox that hooks in to Active Directory or whatever for syncing
Just get lost with the ad plays haha
[+] [-] tucosan|4 years ago|reply
I've lost my config multiple times due to a bug in session recovery.
After having lost yet another session I moved back to Chrome.
[+] [-] bryans|4 years ago|reply
The FF contributors make so many decisions that are just plain nonsensical and harmful to the progression of the web, as do Safari and Opera -- especially those two. And while nobody should ever trust Google's bastardization of Chromium, they and the Chromium contributors are really the only people pushing the web forward, while everyone else is desperately trying to pump the breaks on new APIs, for reasons nobody can explain. Reading a bug tracker thread for any of them is like surviving a 1980s BBS discussion between tape storage format elitists. Even when they're correct, they're all wrong because they're not thinking ahead, and we all lose because of it.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] irrational|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chakkepolja|4 years ago|reply
The organization that overpays managerial people, fired technical talent, and funnels donations into political causes instead of browser development is not much better either.
[+] [-] blendergeek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] odiroot|4 years ago|reply
I normally use Firefox but have to pull up Chromium just for that one feature.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tyingq|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wellthisisgreat|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jFriedensreich|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shadowgovt|4 years ago|reply
As a web developer, my job is already to chase down spec-violating implementation bugs in Safari, Chrome, and Edge. Having one more user agent out there does me no good; I'm disinterested in increasing my pain to support a 4% userbase.
I'd rather browsing be the purview of one or two giant, well-regulated players than a thousand minorly-incompatible little flowers.
[+] [-] SimeVidas|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bikcrit|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wetpaws|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tgv|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tdrdt|4 years ago|reply
And set DDG as the default browser.
I can't imagine why anyone here on HN still would use Chrome.
[+] [-] vord1080|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eloisius|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dadarecit|4 years ago|reply
But really, you're better off using something avangard that some nerd came up with during the weekend. At least these hobbiests' browsers can be trusted to be not be evil & greedy.
[+] [-] laurent92|4 years ago|reply
Seriously, every time you start it, it opens one or even two tabs saying why Firefox loves you and protects you. It introduces nagging on the new tab page to tell you how much Firefox loves and protects you. It installs Pocket or has shortcuts to help you buy products that love and protect you.
Firefox also insists that you should create a Mozilla account and upload all your passwords over. Because they are so kind and protecting about your privacy.
Mozilla also fires people who donate to Christian charities for the beliefs they have (and yes, abortion is a belief, whichever side you are). Even if you are the founder of JS. Hear that: Mozilla fires people who are technically good, for political motivations. It’s as dystopian as it gets. They never apologized.
Mozilla is as dystopian as Google, and the worst evil usually sits with people who believe they are the good guys. In fact, they are sponsored by Google and share the same political slant.
[+] [-] hdjjhhvvhga|4 years ago|reply
> First, Google started to leverage its ownership of the largest web browser, Chrome, to track and target publishers’ audiences in order to sell Google’s advertising inventory. To make this happen, Google first introduced the ability for users to log into the Chrome browser. Then, Google began to steer users into doing this by using deceptive and coercive tactics. For example, Google started to automatically log users into Chrome if they logged into any Google service (e.g., Gmail or YouTube). In this way, Google took the users that choose not to log into Chrome and logged them in anyways. If a user tried to log out of Chrome in response, Google punished them by kicking them out of a Google product they were in the process of using (e.g., Gmail or YouTube). On top this, through another deceptive pattern, Google got these users to give the Chrome browser permission to track them across the open web and on independent publisher sites like The Dallas Morning News. These users also had to give Google permission to use this new Chrome tracking data to sell Google’s own ad space, permitting Google to use Chrome to circumvent reliance on cookie-tracking technology.
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonelite|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] splatzone|4 years ago|reply
However - recently I've found G Search is getting steadily worse. They've made UX changes that make it harder to view cached pages, and it seems to ignore search operators frequently.
This is the biggest foothold to their dominance. YouTube, Gmail, Maps and everything else is in a supporting role to this core product.
Who is actively working on this and what is proving so challenging? What is stopping us from creating a viable Google clone, with the same level of high quality results?
[+] [-] kwdc|4 years ago|reply
Don't be evil.
Do not be evil.
Do be evil.
Be evil.
Evil.
What an utter disappointment amongst so many. Plenty here for future generations to be further disappointed. But not necessarily surprised.
[+] [-] mupuff1234|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikevm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pm90|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] po1nt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emilfihlman|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eterevsky|4 years ago|reply
How on Earth does it NOT mean that AMP improves load times?
[+] [-] KennyBlanken|4 years ago|reply
Texas being on it is a bit of a surprise.
[+] [-] dschuetz|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DeathMetal3000|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nyx_land|4 years ago|reply
I use Firefox when I need a fat modern browser and not something like Netsurf or Nyxt, but that's mostly just a futile symbolic act of defiance on my part. Anyone who thinks Mozilla is the company they once were and that they really are trying to fight the good fight for the open web is kidding themselves. Their brand is being the underdog non-profit open web activism company, but I can't think of anything they've done to meaningfully fight for that. They've sure wasted a lot of time on stupid side projects and ad deals, and I guess they still have Gecko because the code already exists and it'd destroy any facade of competition in the browser market if they switched to Chromium, but if they really were the company people think they are they wouldn't have laid off so many critical teams in 2020. They certainly wouldn't have shitcanned the Servo project, really the only possible threat to Google's de facto monopoly over the web and the biggest meaningful way to fight for the open web.
I know it's been said a ton but the fact that they did that while giving their incompetent CEO a raise and are continuing to put funding into cancerous Web 3.0 shit (VR in the browser? really?) and dumb side projects like their VPN grift should be enough of an indicator to anyone with a brain that Mozilla is controlled opposition at this point and probably being paid off by Google to tank their market share. Maybe it sounds like I need to take my tinfoil hat off, but after everything that's been happening lately with Facebook and Google I don't think this is much of a stretch at all.
[+] [-] prvc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tyingq|4 years ago|reply
Now Everyone Reads AMP?
[+] [-] vander_elst|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Beggers1960|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] achairapart|4 years ago|reply