Disclaimer: I am a Red Hatter. We get Thinkpads/Lenovos since years, we install RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) or Fedora on them. I started back a long time ago with a X31, after that a X40, an X220, a X230, X1 2nd gen and am now on a X1 carbon 7th gen. They have been rock solid for me, except the x220 which loved to bork the hard drive for unknown reasons every 4-6 months.
Lenovo has listened and acted on our requests in a very good way, the Linux support has become better and better over the years, IMHO and experience.
So no, this rant does notbresonate with me and my 16 years experience at all.
Oh, FTR, none of my laptops had nVidia graphics. Intel graphics has always been Good Enough(tm) for my use case (travelling evangelist who presents at conferences and wants enough oomph for some demos on the laptop itself with virtualisation and/or containers).
Nvidia graphics causing problems on laptops is a known issue that only Nvidia can fix by opening up more.
This has largely been my experience as well, also using Fedora but I doubt that matters much. I rarely have issues, in comparison to the endless stream of ACPI and other hurdles other people seem to be going through with their laptops. Also LVFS is a godsend, I wish every vendor ever participated. I get updates even for my thunderbolt dock.
Lenovo bought the x86 line, including all facilities and staff, from IBM, and produced last few generations of IBM branded devices.
The Thinkpad design team is still operating from the same ex-IBM facilities in Japan, iirc, even keeping some place-related naming in the internal codenames (X220/X230 and related T420/T430 were "Nozomi", iirc based on my spelunking in firmware)
My first Thinkpad was a T41P, in between a series from the Xs, then back to T now that the Ts are so easy to carry. I never used Windows on them, first a mix of different distros, then when Ubuntu was released, Ubuntu.
I never had any issues, only on the X220, the SD flash reader was borking my cards and I had to get an external flash reader.
I cannot imagine using something different. So my experience is a bit like yours, this for 20+ years.
Thanks for sharing your experience. As a distro maintainer, do you have access to the complete datasheets of the entire laptop in order to provide decent drivers? Maybe even the source code of the reference Windows drivers?
If so, maybe you could "pressure" your contacts over at Lenovo to get them published once and for all so systems/distros can provide decent support?
Lenovo laptops gave me the best Linux experience out of the box, my only problems have been with the NVidia graphic card, but as others have said that's a known issue and is not Lenovo's fault, even though it got better with time and right now I'm running Plasma+Wayland on Debian testing and apart some hit and miss with copy/paste, it worked great so far.
Same. I haven't tried that many different vendors, but Linux on Lenovo's is by far the most supported of all the Asus, HP, Sony, and random others I've tried. At least with onsite support the technical person understand and knows what they're working with.
I never understood how some people seem to not know that Lenovo and IBM are not the same company. When Lenovo, a completely different company, bought the rights to manufacture IBM products in 2005, the Think* brand was no longer IBM. The author states, eventually, his point being that Lenovo lost it’s mojo, but it never had any. The Thinkpads people remember with mojo were the IBM ones, and some Lenovo branded ones after the handoff, but that’s really just residual “mojo” from the old teams and processes. Lenovo was never good, and really isn’t now, and has a long record of bad behavior.
There's a reason I went with an overpriced Clevo from System76. It has it's warts and the build quality really isn't there for how much I paid. But I turn it on, and everything works. I enjoyed compiling the kernel and chasing down little problems on desktop linux machines when I was a lot younger, but now I just want a laptop I can rely on and get things done with. Without knowing any specifics and not really caring, it was easy to glean that Lenovo had burned the ThinkPad's reputation some time ago when I was planning my last purchase... I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the author.
> The LCD. Ok, 3k was a bad idea, I hate not seeing individual pixels
This is sort of representative of TFA for me. He's whining too much.
I've been using a ThinkPad X1-Carbon that came with Linux pre-installed straight from Lenovo, and I've really had no major issues with it. If someone's looking for a solid Linux laptop experience, that's where I'd steer them these days.
Author appears to be complaining (among many other things) that attempting to retrofit machines that came pre-installed with Windows to run GNU/Linux doesn't work well, and... It never has. Not once. I can name zero experiences in my lifetime doing that where it was relatively painless. I perceive this to be not a "machines aren't flexible" problem, but a "machines come out of the factory with ten thousand complex configurations tuned to work correctly with each other, and when you rip out a piece as large as 'the operating system,' half those configurations are now tuned wrong (and the OS was holding another half of them)" problem.
On this ThinkPad, the only time I've run into issues is when I switched out the window manager. Turns out, the WM's configuration is implicitly tied to a half-dozen features (audio selection power management, etc.) that don't "just keep working" if you replace it. Should I be blaming Ubuntu for that, or should I accept that some pieces of the OS are big enough to be disruptive if you swap them out?
Nobody is optimizing for the "get some hardware and retrofit an entirely new OS into it" use case; that way will forever be a gravel-strewn road. If you want a smooth road, get the OS you want from the factory.
Just a few days ago I installed Arch Linux on a ThinkPad P15 Gen 1 with X Server and i3wm for wm, disk encryption, multiple displays and it works very well. Heck, even the touch screen is working OOB without any special configuration. I've always been installing Arch Linux on ThinkPads that came with Windows pre installed. There are minor issues at times with backlight control or sound system which is mostly due to my minimal setup but overall I don't feel that ThinkPads don't play well with Linux.
> Author appears to be complaining (among many other things) that attempting to retrofit machines that came pre-installed with Windows to run GNU/Linux doesn't work well, and... It never has. Not once. I can name zero experiences in my lifetime doing that where it was relatively painless.
As usual, YMMV, but I've been running Linux with almost no issues on an HP ProBook. The only thing that doesn't work is the fingerprint reader. Bluetooth, custom secure boot keys, Wi-Fi, great battery life [0], sleep, hibernation, etc. worked without any fiddling on Arch Linux.
As far as I know HP doesn't offer these computers with Linux. I'm not even sure you can get them without Windows.
---
[0] Great as in "comparable to what Windows gets on the same hardware".
> GNU/Linux doesn't work well, and... It never has. Not once.
Those from the past didn't fall under a Linux certification program though. That seems to be a main point of the rant:
> And you take risks too. When you sell “certified” ThinkPads with Linux, do you understand you are actually certifying that this machine will run correctly with drivers written by people who had to guess how the hardware should be used because vendors like you didn’t properly document it in the first place? Isn’t this mind-boggling?
So this is a little funny, but I just got my Thinkpad X1 Carbon a few days ago with Fedora preinstalled. I booted it up to the Fedora installation, then the machine rebooted. After it rebooted, a Windows loading screen appeared, followed by a pop-up DOS prompt that entered some commands, followed by another reboot into the Fedora installation.
I haven't seen any evidence of Windows since, but that creeped me out. Can anyone explain what was going on, there?
Also, of course, I had to completely wipe the hard drive and install my own version of Fedora to be totally comfortable after that.
Exactly. Would you install macOS on a Lenovo and expect it to work? No? Then why are you doing the same with Linux? Buy hardware that your software supports.
I can recommend that iPhone video he links to[1]. It shows the switching of the mainboard between two identical Apple phones and goes through all the somewhat surprising consequences, including them both claiming not to be using genuine Apple hardware anymore.
I personally gave up on Lenovo after trying several of their modern laptops and running into constant issues. The last one was a C940 specced out to the max, and for such a premium laptop costing nearly $2000 it was an embarrassment. Windows came with bloatware, I ran into several issues trying to run Linux, the battery life was so-so, and the performance wasn’t even that impressive.
I realized that modern Lenovos aren’t even that repairable or upgradeable (even the Thinkpad line) so hell… might as we’ll get a Mac right? I picked up a used M1 Macbook Air for $700 and have been absolutely blown away. Battery life, performance, display, speakers, the thing blows away any Thinkpad I’ve owned. Sure, impossible to repair or upgrade, but it’s not like you can change out the CPU/RAM/graphics on modern Thinkpads either.
Truthfully, I found hard following the article. It seems many topics (hardware, software, ethics, Microsoft monopoly, smartphones, and others) smashed together. Most of them being generic commentary on current status quo (e.g. UEFI).
Then I wasn't clear enough because it's all linked together for me. The UEFI mention was not just for a commentary, but to back the discussion on the monopoly.
And I think you missed some conclusions I drew from all this that I don't recall reading anywhere else.
> So yes, you can install GNU/Linux, but it’s far from an easy experience. All thanks to Microsoft. And to the companies writing those buggy firmwares.
Has he even tried installing Linux on it before publishing this rant?
It works OOB on pretty much all machines, even with secure boot turned on. Worst case scenario, you can just turn secure boot off.
I seriously don’t get why people are still making a big deal out of this, 10 years or more since this was first arriving as a concern.
As it turned out, there’s still nobody preventing us from installing Linux on our PCs. Instead we only have one extra option if we want to improve the security of our boot process.
Trying to cut through all the right to repair stuff to get to the actual ThinkPad issue... it seems that the GPU has Linux support issues because it uses PCIe in a way the Linux driver doesn't expect. But isn't that an Nvidia problem? Is Lenovo really going to work with Nvidia to make sure they have a working driver for Linux? That's asking a lot for a very small segment of thinkpad users.
They do have ThinkPads that are certified to work with Linux, ship with linux, and have Nivida Graphics
The W541 is not one of those models...
Lenovo has one of the best websites for looking up their models, and configuration. I am not aware of any other vendor that has anything like it. Pick a model, then filter by OS. The T15 as an example has plenty of models with Linux Support
Beyond the GNU/Linux debate [0], there's some interesting points in there.
[0] Today i learnt: Haiku should not be called GNU/Haiku because Haiku is the entire system and not just the kernel, and rms (to my surprise) approves this interpretation
Right, same as how the BSDs are just themselves (natively, that is; things like Debian kFreeBSD loop back to being GNU/kFreeBSD or so). Linux is actually pretty rare in being just the kernel.
Linux is the operating system. It manages hardware and provides system calls. It's possible to write software that Linux boots directly into, no user space at all.
This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system. That piece of paper says operating systems have all these little commands like cp, mv, etc. Therefore, GNU gets to be part of the operating system because it provides those commands. It doesn't have to be this way though, especially on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel.
Personally, unless you need discrete graphics, I would strongly recommend people who want to use Linux, Haiku-os etc to just get a Framework laptop. The manufacturer actually provides enough detail on their hardware to facilitate OS support. I have one and it's great. I've basically lost interest in every other PC manufacturer's laptops, but I will conceded I don't require larger screens or nVidia/AMD graphics.
Lenovo is a for-profit corporation which believes it will make more money by not supporting non-Windows OSes, particularly Linux-kernel-based operating systems, properly. "We need to talk" suggests Lenovo is somehow answerable to its users/customers; this is fundamentally not the case.
Anyway, the thing that annoys me the most is the terrible keyboards we've been getting, especially since X240. Keys need travel distance, and should not be ruined in order to make the laptop thinner. We use those things to work on, not to show off. ... and here I go myself, ranting as though Lenovo cares.
I share the author's frustration with making graphics work on older machines with nvidia dGPUs. My Sandy Bridge thinkpad absolutely cannot boot without hanging and perpetually writing to disk since their major "additions" in 5.12 and later, no matter the dozen hours spent and configurations, kernel parameters setup; I've reached the conclusion it's impossible and put the problem to rest for now with an older version. Alas, this an industry problem, not limited to nu-lenovo by any means, from poor designing of the devices in question (on the Optimus implementation above: it's absolutely terrible and prone to all sorts of issues, because you can't just rip the damn nvidia chip off) to cutting corners. When producing these devices, do manufacturers often think, let alone care, if they will be used in the future after a decade or more? There's no stimuli to do so, after all, no gain from it.
I have a Lenovo Thinkpad L380 and it's the worst laptop I haver ever owned. When I put it on my lap and I hit the wrong spot, it freezes and only turning it off and on again fixes the issue.
I sent it to the Lenovo support center in HK once, but the problem has never been fixed.
Long story short, as a guy who moves a lot internationally, Apple and Lenovo are the only companies offering global warranty and after my horrible experience with Lenovo, I'll be back to Apple!
Thinkpad quality has been terrible after the sale to the China-based Lenovo.
Maybe my experience would have been better with the T or X series though.
I got one of their new linux supporting machins through their reseller, Digital River Ireland Ltd.
I set it up with dualboot since I hadn't run windows a while and needed a windows for a few things anyway.
Must say that windows 10 is not totally bad, but why must it be so blinky, and have an appstore with a front page of colourful games, and even autodownload candy crush?
anyways, the lenovo machine is greay with ubuntu, and the trackpoint work with both middle click as well as scroll, something I could only pick one of in wimdows.
A few day ago, I wondered if it would be possible to build a good Laptop around a Raspberry Pi? Not the best performance but modular, upgradable and well supported by the Linux kernel.
I am only 41 and don't care about these articles anymore.
I was able to explain the problems this article raises, to a 20-year girl who knows almost nothing about technology, in a 15-minute conversation. And she agreed the current situation spells doom for future buyers and that she still wants to be able to buy a pink laptop and put whatever CPU, GPU and RAM she wants in it.
Quote from her: "Why must I buy a VAIO or Acer when I need some more colors? Why can't I buy a lime green ThinkPad and then replace the CPU?".
So look, we all get it just fine. Can you start doing something? This endless virtue signalling will not achieve anything, is this not glaringly obvious at this point?
You all really underestimate the unbridled relentless greed of the shareholders and their servants. They will NEVER stop.
If you want a change, pioneer it.
And to the general HN audience: please understand most devs and hardware guys here are almost literal slaves. A good chunk of you (especially Americans) are privileged beyond what like 80% of us here will ever have, in terms of income and job security.
Please start using your free bandwidth to do good! Patting yourself on the back like "hey, I can articulate the problems, I am helping!" is just you being a quiet accomplice in a future state of affairs where there will be no recourse.
Oh yeah, and I almost forgot: get off my lawn. :P
Seriously though, those articles don't help nothing. Awareness has been raised a long time ago. It's time for action.
Corporations only understand one thing: coercion. Especially if you hit them in the wallets. Everything else they ignore.
It's a niche market calling saying "I will give you money if you just make design decisions that made your computers great to work with in the past." How big is this market? What can really be expected from trying to sell to that market when computers are complex things to build?
If anything, there are companies out on the market trying to serve this niche market. System76 has been around for awhile now, for example (I bought a System76 laptop in 2013 and I hated it, but that's a different story.) I think a few of us would at least hope that these companies look at old ThinkPads and take a few notes. I think maybe that time is coming soon (I would hope :) )
What power do you think American software developers have here that they're not exercising? They should all quit their jobs and move into hardware design so they could band together and start a non-profit chip manufacturer to support some new laptop company? And in the meantime, not buy from any other corporation so we can "hit them in their wallets" and coerce them to... something? All so Apple might offer color options on their laptops?
I don't think most of them underestimate the relentless greed of corporations. If anything, HN is one of the forums I'm on that's the most anti-corporate while not being explicitly communist/anarchist.
You can dismiss the OP as simply complaining, but they're also literally writing an alternate OS for tips. Is that not "using their free bandwidth to do good"? Does it not count because it's not hardware? What about companies like System76 and Framework that are seemingly trying to do exactly what you're claiming people in the US aren't doing?
I generally agree with where you're trying to go, and the futility of just complaining, but you're painting with a really broad brush, assuming a lot of bad/ignorant intentions on the part of anyone you disagree with, and only proposing vague "go do something you ignorant privileged Americans" to solve it.
> And to the general HN audience: please understand most devs and hardware guys here are almost literal slaves. A good chunk of you (especially Americans) are privileged beyond what like 80% of us here will ever have, in terms of income and job security.
[+] [-] jwildeboer|4 years ago|reply
Lenovo has listened and acted on our requests in a very good way, the Linux support has become better and better over the years, IMHO and experience.
So no, this rant does notbresonate with me and my 16 years experience at all.
No offence. Just a different experience.
[+] [-] jwildeboer|4 years ago|reply
Nvidia graphics causing problems on laptops is a known issue that only Nvidia can fix by opening up more.
[+] [-] kiryin|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] p_l|4 years ago|reply
The Thinkpad design team is still operating from the same ex-IBM facilities in Japan, iirc, even keeping some place-related naming in the internal codenames (X220/X230 and related T420/T430 were "Nozomi", iirc based on my spelunking in firmware)
[+] [-] Loic|4 years ago|reply
I never had any issues, only on the X220, the SD flash reader was borking my cards and I had to get an external flash reader.
I cannot imagine using something different. So my experience is a bit like yours, this for 20+ years.
[+] [-] southerntofu|4 years ago|reply
If so, maybe you could "pressure" your contacts over at Lenovo to get them published once and for all so systems/distros can provide decent support?
[+] [-] peoplefromibiza|4 years ago|reply
Lenovo laptops gave me the best Linux experience out of the box, my only problems have been with the NVidia graphic card, but as others have said that's a known issue and is not Lenovo's fault, even though it got better with time and right now I'm running Plasma+Wayland on Debian testing and apart some hit and miss with copy/paste, it worked great so far.
[+] [-] throwawayswede|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitcraft|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xanaxagoras|4 years ago|reply
> The LCD. Ok, 3k was a bad idea, I hate not seeing individual pixels
This is sort of representative of TFA for me. He's whining too much.
[+] [-] shadowgovt|4 years ago|reply
Author appears to be complaining (among many other things) that attempting to retrofit machines that came pre-installed with Windows to run GNU/Linux doesn't work well, and... It never has. Not once. I can name zero experiences in my lifetime doing that where it was relatively painless. I perceive this to be not a "machines aren't flexible" problem, but a "machines come out of the factory with ten thousand complex configurations tuned to work correctly with each other, and when you rip out a piece as large as 'the operating system,' half those configurations are now tuned wrong (and the OS was holding another half of them)" problem.
On this ThinkPad, the only time I've run into issues is when I switched out the window manager. Turns out, the WM's configuration is implicitly tied to a half-dozen features (audio selection power management, etc.) that don't "just keep working" if you replace it. Should I be blaming Ubuntu for that, or should I accept that some pieces of the OS are big enough to be disruptive if you swap them out?
Nobody is optimizing for the "get some hardware and retrofit an entirely new OS into it" use case; that way will forever be a gravel-strewn road. If you want a smooth road, get the OS you want from the factory.
[+] [-] kovac|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mythrwy|4 years ago|reply
Maybe the fingerprint scanners didn't work, I never tried those. But otherwise seamless near as I can tell.
Granted it's mostly older Thinkpads but still. 0 problems.
[+] [-] vladvasiliu|4 years ago|reply
As usual, YMMV, but I've been running Linux with almost no issues on an HP ProBook. The only thing that doesn't work is the fingerprint reader. Bluetooth, custom secure boot keys, Wi-Fi, great battery life [0], sleep, hibernation, etc. worked without any fiddling on Arch Linux.
As far as I know HP doesn't offer these computers with Linux. I'm not even sure you can get them without Windows.
---
[0] Great as in "comparable to what Windows gets on the same hardware".
[+] [-] guerrilla|4 years ago|reply
Those from the past didn't fall under a Linux certification program though. That seems to be a main point of the rant:
> And you take risks too. When you sell “certified” ThinkPads with Linux, do you understand you are actually certifying that this machine will run correctly with drivers written by people who had to guess how the hardware should be used because vendors like you didn’t properly document it in the first place? Isn’t this mind-boggling?
[+] [-] yuuu|4 years ago|reply
I haven't seen any evidence of Windows since, but that creeped me out. Can anyone explain what was going on, there?
Also, of course, I had to completely wipe the hard drive and install my own version of Fedora to be totally comfortable after that.
[+] [-] symlinkk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guerrilla|4 years ago|reply
1. https://youtu.be/8s7NmMl_-yg
[+] [-] mettamage|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] owenversteeg|4 years ago|reply
I realized that modern Lenovos aren’t even that repairable or upgradeable (even the Thinkpad line) so hell… might as we’ll get a Mac right? I picked up a used M1 Macbook Air for $700 and have been absolutely blown away. Battery life, performance, display, speakers, the thing blows away any Thinkpad I’ve owned. Sure, impossible to repair or upgrade, but it’s not like you can change out the CPU/RAM/graphics on modern Thinkpads either.
[+] [-] MonaroVXR|4 years ago|reply
C940 is Yoga from the top of my head a consumer laptop. X1 carbon and other thin models have soldered RAM.
T, E, L and P models have serviceable RAM.
[+] [-] forgotpwd16|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmu_man|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josteink|4 years ago|reply
Has he even tried installing Linux on it before publishing this rant?
It works OOB on pretty much all machines, even with secure boot turned on. Worst case scenario, you can just turn secure boot off.
I seriously don’t get why people are still making a big deal out of this, 10 years or more since this was first arriving as a concern.
As it turned out, there’s still nobody preventing us from installing Linux on our PCs. Instead we only have one extra option if we want to improve the security of our boot process.
[+] [-] phendrenad2|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syshum|4 years ago|reply
The W541 is not one of those models...
Lenovo has one of the best websites for looking up their models, and configuration. I am not aware of any other vendor that has anything like it. Pick a model, then filter by OS. The T15 as an example has plenty of models with Linux Support
https://psref.lenovo.com/
[+] [-] forgotpwd16|4 years ago|reply
If they say they provide Linux support, they have to. Else they're misleading potential buyers.
[+] [-] southerntofu|4 years ago|reply
Beyond the GNU/Linux debate [0], there's some interesting points in there.
[0] Today i learnt: Haiku should not be called GNU/Haiku because Haiku is the entire system and not just the kernel, and rms (to my surprise) approves this interpretation
[+] [-] yjftsjthsd-h|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fsflover|4 years ago|reply
Why wouldn't he? See FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|4 years ago|reply
This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system. That piece of paper says operating systems have all these little commands like cp, mv, etc. Therefore, GNU gets to be part of the operating system because it provides those commands. It doesn't have to be this way though, especially on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel.
[+] [-] spamizbad|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] einpoklum|4 years ago|reply
Anyway, the thing that annoys me the most is the terrible keyboards we've been getting, especially since X240. Keys need travel distance, and should not be ruined in order to make the laptop thinner. We use those things to work on, not to show off. ... and here I go myself, ranting as though Lenovo cares.
[+] [-] 0x_rs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shell0x|4 years ago|reply
I sent it to the Lenovo support center in HK once, but the problem has never been fixed.
Long story short, as a guy who moves a lot internationally, Apple and Lenovo are the only companies offering global warranty and after my horrible experience with Lenovo, I'll be back to Apple!
Thinkpad quality has been terrible after the sale to the China-based Lenovo.
Maybe my experience would have been better with the T or X series though.
[+] [-] mikro2nd|4 years ago|reply
Heed this and weep.
[+] [-] jbj|4 years ago|reply
I set it up with dualboot since I hadn't run windows a while and needed a windows for a few things anyway.
Must say that windows 10 is not totally bad, but why must it be so blinky, and have an appstore with a front page of colourful games, and even autodownload candy crush?
anyways, the lenovo machine is greay with ubuntu, and the trackpoint work with both middle click as well as scroll, something I could only pick one of in wimdows.
[+] [-] arendtio|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CRConrad|4 years ago|reply
Yup, makes sense. Because Open Source was originally created as Free Software minus the ethics bit.
[+] [-] pdimitar|4 years ago|reply
I am only 41 and don't care about these articles anymore.
I was able to explain the problems this article raises, to a 20-year girl who knows almost nothing about technology, in a 15-minute conversation. And she agreed the current situation spells doom for future buyers and that she still wants to be able to buy a pink laptop and put whatever CPU, GPU and RAM she wants in it.
Quote from her: "Why must I buy a VAIO or Acer when I need some more colors? Why can't I buy a lime green ThinkPad and then replace the CPU?".
So look, we all get it just fine. Can you start doing something? This endless virtue signalling will not achieve anything, is this not glaringly obvious at this point?
You all really underestimate the unbridled relentless greed of the shareholders and their servants. They will NEVER stop.
If you want a change, pioneer it.
And to the general HN audience: please understand most devs and hardware guys here are almost literal slaves. A good chunk of you (especially Americans) are privileged beyond what like 80% of us here will ever have, in terms of income and job security.
Please start using your free bandwidth to do good! Patting yourself on the back like "hey, I can articulate the problems, I am helping!" is just you being a quiet accomplice in a future state of affairs where there will be no recourse.
Oh yeah, and I almost forgot: get off my lawn. :P
Seriously though, those articles don't help nothing. Awareness has been raised a long time ago. It's time for action.
Corporations only understand one thing: coercion. Especially if you hit them in the wallets. Everything else they ignore.
[+] [-] bigpeopleareold|4 years ago|reply
It's a niche market calling saying "I will give you money if you just make design decisions that made your computers great to work with in the past." How big is this market? What can really be expected from trying to sell to that market when computers are complex things to build?
If anything, there are companies out on the market trying to serve this niche market. System76 has been around for awhile now, for example (I bought a System76 laptop in 2013 and I hated it, but that's a different story.) I think a few of us would at least hope that these companies look at old ThinkPads and take a few notes. I think maybe that time is coming soon (I would hope :) )
[+] [-] noirbot|4 years ago|reply
I don't think most of them underestimate the relentless greed of corporations. If anything, HN is one of the forums I'm on that's the most anti-corporate while not being explicitly communist/anarchist.
You can dismiss the OP as simply complaining, but they're also literally writing an alternate OS for tips. Is that not "using their free bandwidth to do good"? Does it not count because it's not hardware? What about companies like System76 and Framework that are seemingly trying to do exactly what you're claiming people in the US aren't doing?
I generally agree with where you're trying to go, and the futility of just complaining, but you're painting with a really broad brush, assuming a lot of bad/ignorant intentions on the part of anyone you disagree with, and only proposing vague "go do something you ignorant privileged Americans" to solve it.
[+] [-] 908B64B197|4 years ago|reply
Why not simply... create as much value?
Equal skills, equal pay.
[+] [-] LegitShady|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pdimitar|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] temptemptemp111|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rejectfinite|4 years ago|reply
Stay mad pajeet