This is a very complete and compreshensive undertaking – journalism done right. I think it is important to keep current zeitgeist in check and perhaps even challenge it, i.e. the EU/privacy. I've witnessed a fair bit of EU exceptionalism in 2021 here on HN as well as elsewhere in the media sphere. While, we could all benefit from pre-tested policies that work, being blind to it just gives an enormous leverage to those in power to expand surveillance. In the US, we allowed it willingly or unwillingly post-9/11; the governments of the world couldn't have imagined a better excuse to violate privacy and personal freedom with COVID-19. Keep your eyes open, Australia is a warning flare.
> ... the governments of the world couldn't have imagined a better excuse to violate privacy and personal freedom with COVID-19
On a daily basis in the EU you do really feel how politicians have used Covid-19 to impose a crazy amount of surveillance. If moreover you travel just a bit, the amount of bullshit you have to fill / comply-with and whatnots is just insane.
You drive from, say, France to Belgium: you are supposed to fill online "locator" forms saying where you go from, where you go to, what's the license plate(s) of the car(s) you're using, you have to give the names/address of any intermediate address you're saying at. You can decide to not fill these, but you're taking the risk of serious fines, especially if you happen to contaminate someone.
Non-tecchie people are noticing the increased surveillance too: my wife and kid are flying tomorrow and my wife was telling me earlier today: "The amount of new information you have to give to confirm you plane ticket is becoming crazy".
People do feel they're being watched. Not mentioning the "vaccination pass" you now need to show at many places to be able to enter (as, for example, the restaurants).
I don't personally think the pandemic warranted such a totalitarian crackdown on citizens.
We did obey and suffer the lockdowns. We did get the vaccine. But it certainly doesn't look like we're getting our liberties back.
> Keep your eyes open, Australia is a warning flare.
Speaking from Australia, the measures we've implemented have been very successful in the short term. But it is notable how useless the measures are in the big picture. Nothing that has been done appears to change the inevitability of catching the coronavirus sooner or later. We can't afford more lockdowns and the Israel experience seems to be that vaccines only do so much to slow community spread.
The options seem to be catching coronavirus vs. spending a huge amount of effort and sacrificing a bunch of basic rights avoiding the coronavirus ... then catching it eventually anyway.
It is unclear what we're buying for the expensive price tag.
Is there something more? It had a lost of points listing different institutions, but no cases. If this is all then it doesn't look a lot like government overreach.
This is a report commissioned by a political group (EU Greens). The very same people who support mandatory vaccine passports, "contact tracing" and a multitude of other over-reaching Orwellian measures. In my city the local government just leaked the emails of over 100 people who attended a gay sex party. Accidentally, as they claim, because they're overworked from all the contact tracing they have to do. Someone simply put all the mails in cc.
I don't trust these people with that kind of data or any personal data. They don't actually stand for freedom when push comes to shove, it's all lip service.
My daily bicycle commute as a civilian resident of The Hague takes me past the OPCW (and the Marriott hotel next door where, rather infamously, a pair of Russian spies were picked up in the process of hacking the OPCW's wifi network in 2018 - see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/04/how-russian-sp...), which itself is across the street from the official state residence of the Minister-President of the Netherlands (though the current, demissionary-though-apparently-impossible-to-remove PM, Mark Rutte, prefers to live elsewhere.) Further down the block on my way to my kids' school are the World Forum, Europol, Eurojust, the not-at-all-sinister-sounding International Residual Mechanism for Criminal Tribunals aka the "Mechanism" which used to be the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and the embassies of China, Israel, Venezuela, the Philippines, and Sweden. Sometimes I take a different route back home which takes me past the Russian diplomatic compound among others.
Look, I'm pretty sure I'm well known to a whole bunch of security services (hi y'all!) just by virtue of my daily commute. But here's the deal - what matters is how this can be used against me, or not. There's no realistic scenario in which I'm going to come to grief from the various security apparatus I happen to pass each day.
No, what matters much, much more than whether my face and habits of movement are known to various state organs (admittedly: given that I live in the Netherlands where the rule of law is still a thing) is the degree to which I can come to grief in my personal life from shitty, sloppy private mass surveillance.
Which, fortunately, is relatively constrained here. My health insurance premium isn't going to inexplicably go up (or, for that matter, my coverage denied) because someone who looks like me (who may not be me, but I have no access to the data or ability to appeal) is living an unhealthy life in public. No, the rates are fixed for everyone, and insurers don't get to cherry-pick. While I wouldn't mind an health insurance discount for cycling instead of driving a car those 10km/day, in general I'm satisfied with the regulatory regime here in a way that I very very much wasn't when I lived in the US. Nor would I be denied a mortgage here (or charged a higher rate) based on my alleged movements in meatspace or cyberspace. Insurers and banks just aren't allowed - with meaningful regulatory oversight - to incorporate these factors into underwriting products that most people consume. (Life insurance is a different story, but also not something most people in NL purchase.)
tl;dr: it's not surveillance per se that matters, it's the consequences attached. Even if you have the right to know how surveillance data affect your ability to live your life (and to appeal), those rights are useless to anyone who lacks the time and knowledge to go chasing them. Far better as a society to, up front, say "nope, sorry, everyone needs health insurance/access to basic financial products like mortgages on primary residences/etc" and limit the scope of discrimination. Because tech gonna tech, and that's impossible to stop over the long term.
I don't really agree with you. You're basically quoting the typical Dutch strawman "I have nothing to hide" ("Ik heb niets te verbergen").
The problem with mass surveillance isn't only what is done with the data. It's that it's being done in the first place. I personally hate the feeling of governments and corporations spying on me every hour of every day 1) . Whether it affects me or not. I don't want my own phone to look over my shoulder. I don't want to watch what I say online. I just want to be myself. I feel this surveillance as a constant pressure on me in life these days.
All of our governments are simply playing catch-up at this point. Unless the western-influenced can prove their superiority with growth and progress, I think everyone here has to acknowledge they have a better overall governance model (elections are a small but significant part of this)
If their governance model was so good, they wouldn't have to oppress their population so much. The fact that Western governments are adopting some of the same techniques is a sign that either technology makes it too easy/cheap to implement these systems without thinking, or that Western governments are becoming less representative and thus need to rely on systems of oppression more to maintain their grip on power.
To give some possible examples of what I mean by "less representative", let me suggest that growing wealth inequality makes the poor realise they are not being heard by the rich; that communication technology allow niche ideas to spread causing the balkanisation of reality (which causes cracks that governments can't easily paper over); and that in some countries the voting system doesn't allow the healthy evolution of parties to respond to the new realities (exacerbating "future shock").
[+] [-] systemvoltage|4 years ago|reply
Edit: Smarter Everyday did a great job examining the history of privacy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMtrY6lbjcY
[+] [-] TacticalCoder|4 years ago|reply
On a daily basis in the EU you do really feel how politicians have used Covid-19 to impose a crazy amount of surveillance. If moreover you travel just a bit, the amount of bullshit you have to fill / comply-with and whatnots is just insane.
You drive from, say, France to Belgium: you are supposed to fill online "locator" forms saying where you go from, where you go to, what's the license plate(s) of the car(s) you're using, you have to give the names/address of any intermediate address you're saying at. You can decide to not fill these, but you're taking the risk of serious fines, especially if you happen to contaminate someone.
Non-tecchie people are noticing the increased surveillance too: my wife and kid are flying tomorrow and my wife was telling me earlier today: "The amount of new information you have to give to confirm you plane ticket is becoming crazy".
People do feel they're being watched. Not mentioning the "vaccination pass" you now need to show at many places to be able to enter (as, for example, the restaurants).
I don't personally think the pandemic warranted such a totalitarian crackdown on citizens.
We did obey and suffer the lockdowns. We did get the vaccine. But it certainly doesn't look like we're getting our liberties back.
It is beyond insanity.
[+] [-] roenxi|4 years ago|reply
Speaking from Australia, the measures we've implemented have been very successful in the short term. But it is notable how useless the measures are in the big picture. Nothing that has been done appears to change the inevitability of catching the coronavirus sooner or later. We can't afford more lockdowns and the Israel experience seems to be that vaccines only do so much to slow community spread.
The options seem to be catching coronavirus vs. spending a huge amount of effort and sacrificing a bunch of basic rights avoiding the coronavirus ... then catching it eventually anyway.
It is unclear what we're buying for the expensive price tag.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Jensson|4 years ago|reply
> Facial recognition: School ID checks lead to GDPR fine
> The Swedish Data Protection Authority (DPA) fined the Skelleftea municipality 200,000 Swedish Krona (£16,800, $20,700) for flouting a privacy law.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49489154
Is there something more? It had a lost of points listing different institutions, but no cases. If this is all then it doesn't look a lot like government overreach.
[+] [-] trompetenaccoun|4 years ago|reply
I don't trust these people with that kind of data or any personal data. They don't actually stand for freedom when push comes to shove, it's all lip service.
[+] [-] fothrowaway|4 years ago|reply
Look, I'm pretty sure I'm well known to a whole bunch of security services (hi y'all!) just by virtue of my daily commute. But here's the deal - what matters is how this can be used against me, or not. There's no realistic scenario in which I'm going to come to grief from the various security apparatus I happen to pass each day.
No, what matters much, much more than whether my face and habits of movement are known to various state organs (admittedly: given that I live in the Netherlands where the rule of law is still a thing) is the degree to which I can come to grief in my personal life from shitty, sloppy private mass surveillance.
Which, fortunately, is relatively constrained here. My health insurance premium isn't going to inexplicably go up (or, for that matter, my coverage denied) because someone who looks like me (who may not be me, but I have no access to the data or ability to appeal) is living an unhealthy life in public. No, the rates are fixed for everyone, and insurers don't get to cherry-pick. While I wouldn't mind an health insurance discount for cycling instead of driving a car those 10km/day, in general I'm satisfied with the regulatory regime here in a way that I very very much wasn't when I lived in the US. Nor would I be denied a mortgage here (or charged a higher rate) based on my alleged movements in meatspace or cyberspace. Insurers and banks just aren't allowed - with meaningful regulatory oversight - to incorporate these factors into underwriting products that most people consume. (Life insurance is a different story, but also not something most people in NL purchase.)
tl;dr: it's not surveillance per se that matters, it's the consequences attached. Even if you have the right to know how surveillance data affect your ability to live your life (and to appeal), those rights are useless to anyone who lacks the time and knowledge to go chasing them. Far better as a society to, up front, say "nope, sorry, everyone needs health insurance/access to basic financial products like mortgages on primary residences/etc" and limit the scope of discrimination. Because tech gonna tech, and that's impossible to stop over the long term.
[+] [-] lifeisstillgood|4 years ago|reply
My attempt to turn it into something short enough for my brain would be:
Secrecy is where they don't know anything about you. (And that is long gone)
Privacy is where they know everything about you, but are not allowed to exploit you. (And that is the fight for the next decade)
Progess is where they know everything about you, and can assist you in your best interests. (that's my conjecture)
[+] [-] GekkePrutser|4 years ago|reply
The problem with mass surveillance isn't only what is done with the data. It's that it's being done in the first place. I personally hate the feeling of governments and corporations spying on me every hour of every day 1) . Whether it affects me or not. I don't want my own phone to look over my shoulder. I don't want to watch what I say online. I just want to be myself. I feel this surveillance as a constant pressure on me in life these days.
1) Person of Interest quote intended :)
[+] [-] snugghash|4 years ago|reply
All of our governments are simply playing catch-up at this point. Unless the western-influenced can prove their superiority with growth and progress, I think everyone here has to acknowledge they have a better overall governance model (elections are a small but significant part of this)
[+] [-] dane-pgp|4 years ago|reply
To give some possible examples of what I mean by "less representative", let me suggest that growing wealth inequality makes the poor realise they are not being heard by the rich; that communication technology allow niche ideas to spread causing the balkanisation of reality (which causes cracks that governments can't easily paper over); and that in some countries the voting system doesn't allow the healthy evolution of parties to respond to the new realities (exacerbating "future shock").
[+] [-] GekkePrutser|4 years ago|reply
Also, economic growth is not the measure of a state that's good for its citizens. I think we're doing a lot better than China there.
This just means we have to keep fighting it.
[+] [-] freetinker|4 years ago|reply