Not all people realize the bargaining power of a huge corporation is much different than that of an individual.
If a company of 100 people fires a worker, they lose 1% of productivity. If a worker loses their job, they lose 100% of income. This fundamental asymmetry makes me support unions.
On top of that, the corporation can afford paying to shift people's opinions.
1) A whole lot of propaganda effort has gone into spreading anti-union sentiment for at least over a century, from the very deep pockets of the richest private actors in the world, like Amazon. Since they managed to capture half the politicians, it has become a culture war issue to the point that being pro and anti union is more a marker of personal identity than a reasoned position.
2) Historically, America's largest unions were often controlled by organized crime, which prevented competition and fixed prices at an artificially high level so mob bosses could get a cut and "consultants" who didn't actually do anything could be put on payroll so someone who owned 20 houses without having a real job could deflect scrutiny from the IRS. Since a lot of what was priced so high because of this was public works construction, it impacted everyone, and gave unions generally a bad reputation.
3) People like me who have never been in a "real" union, but still might have stupid one-off college jobs that nonetheless required you to join a union, have their only exposure come through something ineffective that isn't providing any actual benefits but is taking a cut of your already low pay anyway. For whatever reason, I had to join a union to work at Disneyland, but that didn't prevent me from making $10 an hour, didn't prevent my friend from practically getting her leg burned off and having it blamed on her with no disability assistance, and didn't prevent me from getting laid off when they downsized entertainment.
On the other hand, my dad was a plumber and his union seemed to bring him real benefit. But in a white collar environment like Hacker News, or pretty much anywhere you're likely to hang out on the Internet, anyone who has ever been in a union at all was more likely in something like the Disneyland union.
Unions are relatively controversial everywhere. In the UK and other parts of Europe, for instance, they also divide opinion, either generally or in specific cases where they are accused of over-reach.
In the US I get the impression they are more controversial, perhaps because they are less common (so it is easier for those against to make mountains out of molehills because the public in general are less aware where the truth ends and the spin starts), perhaps because the US is more openly capitalistic (the old “in America many see themselves as temporarily inconvenienced millionaires, not middle-/working-/poor-class”) and unions are seen as a serious blocker in that frame of mind, perhaps because of the history if the word union by opposing political powers, most likely because of a mix of the above and the amount of shouty misinformation anything attracts from the likes of Fox “news” and similarly crap (but in some cases differently biased) outlets generate on every subject.
But they are definitely a controversial topic elsewhere too.
Yeah, if only those stupid warehouse workers would listen to me, the enlightened tech worker who is making many multiples of what they are. I know what is best for you!
You realize how disgustingly patronizing you sound?
I don't know if you've ever worked in a warehouse before, but they aren't exactly places where there's a lot of intellectual thought happening (or any thought sometimes). It's moving stuff and repetitive tasks and relatively little human interaction. So yes, they probably are more susceptible to propaganda than say, a group of knowledge workers.
BurningPenguin|4 years ago
danuker|4 years ago
If a company of 100 people fires a worker, they lose 1% of productivity. If a worker loses their job, they lose 100% of income. This fundamental asymmetry makes me support unions.
On top of that, the corporation can afford paying to shift people's opinions.
nonameiguess|4 years ago
1) A whole lot of propaganda effort has gone into spreading anti-union sentiment for at least over a century, from the very deep pockets of the richest private actors in the world, like Amazon. Since they managed to capture half the politicians, it has become a culture war issue to the point that being pro and anti union is more a marker of personal identity than a reasoned position.
2) Historically, America's largest unions were often controlled by organized crime, which prevented competition and fixed prices at an artificially high level so mob bosses could get a cut and "consultants" who didn't actually do anything could be put on payroll so someone who owned 20 houses without having a real job could deflect scrutiny from the IRS. Since a lot of what was priced so high because of this was public works construction, it impacted everyone, and gave unions generally a bad reputation.
3) People like me who have never been in a "real" union, but still might have stupid one-off college jobs that nonetheless required you to join a union, have their only exposure come through something ineffective that isn't providing any actual benefits but is taking a cut of your already low pay anyway. For whatever reason, I had to join a union to work at Disneyland, but that didn't prevent me from making $10 an hour, didn't prevent my friend from practically getting her leg burned off and having it blamed on her with no disability assistance, and didn't prevent me from getting laid off when they downsized entertainment.
On the other hand, my dad was a plumber and his union seemed to bring him real benefit. But in a white collar environment like Hacker News, or pretty much anywhere you're likely to hang out on the Internet, anyone who has ever been in a union at all was more likely in something like the Disneyland union.
dspillett|4 years ago
In the US I get the impression they are more controversial, perhaps because they are less common (so it is easier for those against to make mountains out of molehills because the public in general are less aware where the truth ends and the spin starts), perhaps because the US is more openly capitalistic (the old “in America many see themselves as temporarily inconvenienced millionaires, not middle-/working-/poor-class”) and unions are seen as a serious blocker in that frame of mind, perhaps because of the history if the word union by opposing political powers, most likely because of a mix of the above and the amount of shouty misinformation anything attracts from the likes of Fox “news” and similarly crap (but in some cases differently biased) outlets generate on every subject.
But they are definitely a controversial topic elsewhere too.
eru|4 years ago
JohnWhigham|4 years ago
You realize how disgustingly patronizing you sound?
grumple|4 years ago