Would be nice if people were always actually disqualified at 12 points.
>While numbers of exceptional hardship pleas are not recorded separately, official figures show that more than 83,000 people escaped an automatic driving ban due to “mitigating circumstances” between 2011 and 2020.
>Christopher Gard accumulated eight convictions for using a mobile phone while driving but escaped a ban in June 2015 by arguing that it would cause him to lose his job, highlighting that this would impact negatively on his young son, and his son’s mother. He promised to keep his phone locked in his boot. Six weeks later, he had already broken his promise, and was once again texting behind the wheel when he ploughed into the back of cyclist Lee Martin, killing him. Gard tried to cover up his actions by deleting his texts. He was later jailed for nine years for causing death by dangerous driving.
Is there any guarantee that disqualification actually keeps these people off the streets? (Honestly asking as I'm not familiar with how the law around this works in the UK)
I lost a childhood friend to a woman with a long drunk driving record, who naturally disregarded her suspended license and plowed right through us playing street hokey in broad daylight.
Since then I've thought penalties should be more punitive when licenses get suspended, like by impounding the car to ensure that the person can't just drive it anyway. But like the loopholes you mention, I haven't found a way to do it that doesn't incur further hardship, like losing employment or usurious impound lot fees accruing in the interim.
> Under current UK laws, drivers are banned from texting or making a phone call (other than in an emergency) while using a handheld device. From 2022, drivers will not be allowed to take photos or videos, scroll through playlists or play games on their phones when driving.
Incredible that the lawmakers were stupid enough last time to ban not phone usage in general, but just texting and making a call. And now they are repeating the same mistake by specifying that it's illegal to scroll through playlists or play games? Just ban phone usage nonstop already like other, sane countries. Make an exception for navigational purposes, and hopefully we can have fewer deaths because of distracted driving.
Or even better, create a law that outlaws being distracted by anything while driving, requiring drivers to stop if they are distracted.
Incredible that the lawmakers were stupid enough last time to ban not phone usage in general
This was not stupidity. It's an example of specific, well-scoped lawmaking, which is exactly the sort of thing we should welcome. It's targeted specifically at the use of communication devices while driving, provides appropriate exemptions, and seems like an entirely appropriate step given the nature of the mobile device market in 2003. Now the regulations are being tightened further, again in a reasonable way, to deal with the problems that now exist.
And now they are repeating the same mistake by specifying that it's illegal to scroll through playlists or play games
This is not what is happening, and is clearly an example of the sort of thing that will be banned under a more general rule of "don't use a mobile device while driving".
Just ban phone usage nonstop already like other, sane countries. Make an exception for navigational purposes, and hopefully we can have fewer deaths because of distracted driving.
This is exactly what is happening, along with additional clarifications on what counts as driving (e.g. being stopped at traffic lights is still driving) and ensuring that commonly-used, safe features (for example, making a contactless payment at a toll booth) are not caught by the regulations.
> Just ban phone usage nonstop already like other, sane countries.
Can you give a specific example? There are only a few countries with safer roads (e.g. Norway, Sweden, Switzerland depending how you measure) and I know that Norway has less restrictive laws and Sweden has almost none except for egregious behaviour like texting (last time I checked.)
This is one of those typical HN “solutions” that seem good on the surface but fail in the real world.
Remember if a driver chooses to challenge a ticket, the state needs to prove proof. Texting and calls are easy to prove. Having a phone in your hand is easy to prove.
>Or even better, create a law that outlaws being distracted by anything while driving, requiring drivers to stop if they are distracted.
Exactly! Why are companies allowed to put up those digital billboards, which are appearing everywhere in cities at the moment? When they are literally designed to distract drivers.
One particularly notable one near where I live spans busy 4-lane junction. Because what drivers negotiating that junction really need to aid their concentration is to have ginormous screen displaying a sexy model in his or her underwear emblazoned right across the highway.
Another one near me is close to a rugby club and plays video clips of the team in action. Again, no other purpose than to grab the attention of passing motorists. Why are these not banned also?
I am terrified of the day I will also witness this happening, or worse, become a victim. Because I walk a lot , I see drivers everywhere constantly holding their phones on one hand while driving with the other, barely looking forward to watch the road, just like the lorry driver in question, who killed a whole family while scrolling through music on his phone, did. It's a matter of time, people should be banned from driving as soon as can finally get a fucking computer to do it for us. The carnage must stop and I am honestly shocked the number of people dying is not an order of magnitude higher given the behaviour I see from drivers everywhere, even in the richest, most "law-abiding" countries (let alone elsewhere).
Every day I see people still doing it though here in London. There is no excuse. Not one.
Actually two weeks ago there was a huge Jewsons truck blocking an entire junction while driver was on his phone. The driver in front of me who was blocked confronted him and he told her to fuck off and what was she going to do about it. She used her phone to take a photo of him on his. I hope something is done. Some people are so arrogant and thoughtless.
Do you drive on the roads in the UK? I don't think legislation will fix the culture of not caring enough to recognize speed limit signs. People are constantly distracted or just stupid. Regardless of whether the speed limit is 20 or 30, they all choose to drive at 25. In fact, next to no-one is actually following the 20mph speed limit in most cases. Motorway driving isn't any better, you either do well below 70 or well above it. There's people leaving 100m stretches between them and the next car when there's congestion. Road markings are taken to be mere suggestions. And the road markings themselves are rubbish - how am I supposed to know which lane must I take if the only signs instructing me of that are under the cars in front of me?
I wholeheartedly agree that phones shouldn't be used during driving, but to drive safer and more efficiently, the country needs a change in driving culture.
The driver was jailed for 10 years so I don't get your point; the behaviour was already illegal since the driver was not paying attention and wasn't in control of his vehicle.
I'd object, to a law outlawing the use of those. Many of them are used to control car functions like climate control etc, and it's never been a particular problem before to allow people to (for instance) change radio station or skip a track on the CD.
With the rise of carplay and android auto, they present simplified, low-distraction interfaces.
That's too far. Console switches existed long before that and good luck switching something on/off on a 2000's Volvo dashboard without looking at it.
The point is to sop people holding phones in their hands or on their laps and spending too more time looking at them than a spit of a second, checking social media etc.
The current law is confusing and a bit arbitrary since it came in in 2003 before smartphones were a thing. Here's the Crown Prosecution Service guidance if you want to see how complicated it is: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-mobile-ph...
Hopefully the new law will tighten things up and clarify.
That’s cute but if I’ve got a touch screen in my car and scroll through Spotify playlist, I’m as distracted as if I would be doing that on my phone if not worse.
We need something general about distractions and may be a mandate that requires cars to disable touch screen whilst moving. “Put gear shift lever in park to enable touch screen”
I ride a motorbike so i get to see more. There isn’t a traffic light or even a street you can drive on in the uk where there isn’t at least one driver playing with a phone or a satnav.
And despite all that, road deaths are pretty low.
Is this genuinely the next most important thing we could do to get people where they’re going quickly and safely?
For my money, I’d focus on reintroducing traffic police in the UK. Ostensibly they’ve never gone away, they still exist. However it’s a skeleton staff only really equipped to deal with road traffic accidents. There aren’t enough to keep things flowing safely and smoothly - which means actively stopping drivers regularly for a word in the ear. Not a ticket, just a word in the first instance.
I also think having a satnav and phone available might even reduce accidents. It will avoid people getting lost, making erratic turns, being distracted and stressed looking for street signs. And with the phone you can call when you're late, and feel less rushed which can also be distracting.
But I think the actual handling of the device should be avoided, a fixed mount helps a lot. Looking down is really disorienting.
But I'm glad I don't have to drive anymore. I find it too stressful these days. Traffic has become too busy and there's more rules to worry about with variable speed limits depending on the hour etc.
[+] [-] snthd|4 years ago|reply
Would be nice if people were always actually disqualified at 12 points.
>While numbers of exceptional hardship pleas are not recorded separately, official figures show that more than 83,000 people escaped an automatic driving ban due to “mitigating circumstances” between 2011 and 2020.
>Christopher Gard accumulated eight convictions for using a mobile phone while driving but escaped a ban in June 2015 by arguing that it would cause him to lose his job, highlighting that this would impact negatively on his young son, and his son’s mother. He promised to keep his phone locked in his boot. Six weeks later, he had already broken his promise, and was once again texting behind the wheel when he ploughed into the back of cyclist Lee Martin, killing him. Gard tried to cover up his actions by deleting his texts. He was later jailed for nine years for causing death by dangerous driving.
[+] [-] Arrath|4 years ago|reply
I lost a childhood friend to a woman with a long drunk driving record, who naturally disregarded her suspended license and plowed right through us playing street hokey in broad daylight.
Since then I've thought penalties should be more punitive when licenses get suspended, like by impounding the car to ensure that the person can't just drive it anyway. But like the loopholes you mention, I haven't found a way to do it that doesn't incur further hardship, like losing employment or usurious impound lot fees accruing in the interim.
[+] [-] capableweb|4 years ago|reply
Incredible that the lawmakers were stupid enough last time to ban not phone usage in general, but just texting and making a call. And now they are repeating the same mistake by specifying that it's illegal to scroll through playlists or play games? Just ban phone usage nonstop already like other, sane countries. Make an exception for navigational purposes, and hopefully we can have fewer deaths because of distracted driving.
Or even better, create a law that outlaws being distracted by anything while driving, requiring drivers to stop if they are distracted.
[+] [-] matthewmacleod|4 years ago|reply
This was not stupidity. It's an example of specific, well-scoped lawmaking, which is exactly the sort of thing we should welcome. It's targeted specifically at the use of communication devices while driving, provides appropriate exemptions, and seems like an entirely appropriate step given the nature of the mobile device market in 2003. Now the regulations are being tightened further, again in a reasonable way, to deal with the problems that now exist.
And now they are repeating the same mistake by specifying that it's illegal to scroll through playlists or play games
This is not what is happening, and is clearly an example of the sort of thing that will be banned under a more general rule of "don't use a mobile device while driving".
Just ban phone usage nonstop already like other, sane countries. Make an exception for navigational purposes, and hopefully we can have fewer deaths because of distracted driving.
This is exactly what is happening, along with additional clarifications on what counts as driving (e.g. being stopped at traffic lights is still driving) and ensuring that commonly-used, safe features (for example, making a contactless payment at a toll booth) are not caught by the regulations.
[+] [-] krona|4 years ago|reply
Can you give a specific example? There are only a few countries with safer roads (e.g. Norway, Sweden, Switzerland depending how you measure) and I know that Norway has less restrictive laws and Sweden has almost none except for egregious behaviour like texting (last time I checked.)
[+] [-] blitzar|4 years ago|reply
> https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/mobile-phone-laws/
> It’s illegal to hold a phone or sat nav while driving or riding a motorcycle.
> the police can charge you for driving without due care and attention or careless driving.
Everyone already thought it was illegal, inluding the governments own website and the highway code.
This seems to be a tough new law (we are tough on crime, your taxes hard at work) designed to make the current law the law.
Note: The article and other similar articles are all reguritations of the press release on the matter. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/any-use-of-hand-held-mobi...
[+] [-] refurb|4 years ago|reply
Remember if a driver chooses to challenge a ticket, the state needs to prove proof. Texting and calls are easy to prove. Having a phone in your hand is easy to prove.
[+] [-] OJFord|4 years ago|reply
(And perhaps even poking 'next track' button which is not that different to the same on the dashboard's cassette player.)
The prose you quoted is just the paper's explanation, I assume the 'all in-hand use' from the title is closer to what will be in the actual bill.
[+] [-] breakfastduck|4 years ago|reply
I don't think it's quite fair to be totally harsh on the legislators not predicting modern smartphone complexity.
If you ban it completely you'd also ban using GPS/Maps/Sat Nav apps.
[+] [-] Normille|4 years ago|reply
One particularly notable one near where I live spans busy 4-lane junction. Because what drivers negotiating that junction really need to aid their concentration is to have ginormous screen displaying a sexy model in his or her underwear emblazoned right across the highway.
Another one near me is close to a rugby club and plays video clips of the team in action. Again, no other purpose than to grab the attention of passing motorists. Why are these not banned also?
[+] [-] dazc|4 years ago|reply
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/31/lorry-driver...
[+] [-] brabel|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hmrr|4 years ago|reply
Every day I see people still doing it though here in London. There is no excuse. Not one.
Actually two weeks ago there was a huge Jewsons truck blocking an entire junction while driver was on his phone. The driver in front of me who was blocked confronted him and he told her to fuck off and what was she going to do about it. She used her phone to take a photo of him on his. I hope something is done. Some people are so arrogant and thoughtless.
[+] [-] eptcyka|4 years ago|reply
I wholeheartedly agree that phones shouldn't be used during driving, but to drive safer and more efficiently, the country needs a change in driving culture.
[+] [-] krona|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kerrsclyde|4 years ago|reply
Seems incredible this has not been made illegal too.
[+] [-] hmrr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] koziserek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thih9|4 years ago|reply
I’m sure they’re not as much distracting, but they still require more attention than they should.
[+] [-] Dah00n|4 years ago|reply
Well...
https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
[+] [-] Nursie|4 years ago|reply
With the rise of carplay and android auto, they present simplified, low-distraction interfaces.
[+] [-] cromka|4 years ago|reply
The point is to sop people holding phones in their hands or on their laps and spending too more time looking at them than a spit of a second, checking social media etc.
[+] [-] rwmj|4 years ago|reply
Hopefully the new law will tighten things up and clarify.
[+] [-] simonswords82|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] p2t2p|4 years ago|reply
We need something general about distractions and may be a mandate that requires cars to disable touch screen whilst moving. “Put gear shift lever in park to enable touch screen”
[+] [-] CraigJPerry|4 years ago|reply
And despite all that, road deaths are pretty low.
Is this genuinely the next most important thing we could do to get people where they’re going quickly and safely?
For my money, I’d focus on reintroducing traffic police in the UK. Ostensibly they’ve never gone away, they still exist. However it’s a skeleton staff only really equipped to deal with road traffic accidents. There aren’t enough to keep things flowing safely and smoothly - which means actively stopping drivers regularly for a word in the ear. Not a ticket, just a word in the first instance.
[+] [-] GekkePrutser|4 years ago|reply
But I think the actual handling of the device should be avoided, a fixed mount helps a lot. Looking down is really disorienting.
But I'm glad I don't have to drive anymore. I find it too stressful these days. Traffic has become too busy and there's more rules to worry about with variable speed limits depending on the hour etc.
[+] [-] hhmc|4 years ago|reply
However injuries are incredibly high, >100,000 in the UK.
I think if we consider QALYs instead of deaths then the calculus on importance becomes more obvious.
[+] [-] RoryH|4 years ago|reply