The company had over 100B in revenue last year. By adding this sleazy anti-feature, Microsoft is sacrificing its reputation and the quality of a high-profile product for probably a few million? That's a few thousandths of one percent of their total revenue. I don't understand it.
The product manager behind this cares about having numbers to show their manager and isn't concerned about the potential reputational impact it might have on the company as a whole. Their manager likewise will be happy to report in turn to their manager that they've increased revenue by a large amount. It's peanuts to the company but could be a large increase for that particular product which is what the managers get rewarded on.
Meanwhile nearly every corp on earth supplies their employees with windows laptops. So besides being shitty moneygrabbers, there's no way you can avoid them.
IMO Microsoft is actively working to make computing more horrible.
Counterpoint: HUGE disclamer: I'm windows fangirl, and I really love the new Microsoft edge. I have it on my laptop, tablet and cellphone, and I even had it on Linux the last time I gave a chance to Linux.
Like you, at first I thought some features were sleazy, like the coupon. But after using it a bit, I like it: whenever I'm going to buy something on Amazon or somewhere else, I having a big popup telling me it's cheaper on this alternative store OR that I forgot to clip a coupon on amazon is REALLY helpful! It's like shopping.google.com right inside your browser, on a push basis.
It's really hard to make a product that's satisfactory to everybody. You may hate the coupon feature - but I love it. I'm not a big fan of debt to finance consumption, BUT maybe there's a student out there who needs that to splurge on cheap hardware during blackfriday and make a profit by parting it out on ebay?
Also, a feature that's just "meh" can be safely ignored, like the various things Word can do: no, you don't have to display every toolbar if you don't use them.
If the feature is worse than "meh", say if it goes to far, Edge can become a source to made a free software browser, like Chrome became chromium for people who value their freedom and privacy.
And considering all the naughty changes Google has been adding (ex: to make it harder to do ad blocking), maybe that's for the better: I'd rather have Microsoft employees fix the codebase and backport features from upstream, than volunteers: this frees the volunteers so they can concentrate on the more important (and easy stuff), and leave the boring stuff to Microsoft.
Is it more complicated to have chrome -> chromium -> edge -> edgium -> something you will be able to use?
Yes.
But so what? As long as it works, I don't care much.
I don't understand it either. I can't fathom how none of the people working on this had the conscience to pull the emergency brakes before it's shipped? How was this product idea validated? Where's the data-driven decision making everyone is preaching about?
"Microsoft is sacrificing its reputation" their rep has been a mixed bag (and I'm being kind, but I'm quite biased, having worked for SUN and VA Linux among other places) and they always seem to seek trashy new ways to squeeze a few million here and there, if users say nothing.
This is not new at all for them. There have been advertisements in Windows 10 for ridiculous games, and way back in Windows XP, Media Player would advertise the most ridiculous things including some paid online radio from South America (I guess it depended on the region -- today it just advertises Bing).
I’ve been generally happy with my switch to Edge, but am not a huge fan of this. However, I think you may be overestimating how much a non-technical person would dislike a feature like this. If anything, many would likely be happy to have layaway at their fingertips for all of their purchases.
While I generally agree with your sentiment, you are making a wild guess on how much revenue this brings/is projected to bring, and then you base your entire argument around it.
The fact that Edge lags behind in desktop browser share is absurd. Looking at some charts online it appears to have 1/5 the usage of Chrome. That’s crazy. 80% of people are finding, installing, and using Chrome when a default is provided by the OS.
On the other hand, the continuous own-goals like this leave me unsurprised. It’s like Microsoft wants to create a bad browser.
The reason might be because ten years ago we all went home to our moms and pops and told them we had finally found a perfect browser for them that was much safer and leaner and better in every way and even though the switch from IE to Chrome was hard on them, they went along. Now they are masters of their browser and will not listen to us proclaiming that "well, I was wrong to put you on Chrome, but this time I really have found the bestest browser".
Also, there's a lack of benign browsers in the market. Even team FF tries to make your mom buy things she doesn't really want or need, with their Firefox Suggest feature.
It feels like a very "enterprisey" way of thinking. Where business deals and partnerships take precedence over user experience. I'm reminded of how the Java installer bundled (or still bundles?) an Ask toolbar for some reason.
A lot of developers dunk on Google for Chrome pushing people to sign in to their Google account for sync.
For elderly non-tech folks like my Dad's close friend, signing into Chrome Profile/Sync (whatever it's now called) is like "signing into the internet". "I can check my e-mail, browse the internet". He doesn't remember a single password, except for Google and Facebook. He doesn't know "what passwords do".
If any other browser opens up for whatever reason (sometimes PDF files open in Edge), he's totally at sea.
Chrome itself benefits from being pushed by Google properties, including it being the only ad on the Google homepage. Back in the day it took off in popularity after being bundled with Flash Player.
Shooting yourself in the foot would be a correct characterization. Would be fun to see a video of the meeting when they decided this was a great idea.
It almost signals a change in leadership that took place at the Edge team few months back, and a new product direction that Microsoft may regret in the future.
> I received email from two people who told me that Microsoft Edge enabled synching without warning or consent, which means that Microsoft sucked up all of their bookmarks.
This just happened to me last week. Microsoft Edge turned on syncing without my permission, with options including passwords and payment methods turned on.
I only used it for logging into Microsoft products but I don't even think I want to do that anymore, due to the loss of trust.
They also have their coupon thing [1] which is an anti-consumer feature. If I wanted them scanning my shopping carts I can get an addon. I assume they're building a profile on me with that data.
I honestly thought Edge would be able to take market share from Chrome because it was pretty good for a while if you were willing to log in to your MS account on all your devices. I like the syncing. The QR code scanning to get something onto my phone is handy.
I thought MS was going to make a less creepy version of Edge. Now it seems like the opposite. They're going to build a 90s style toolbar infected monstrosity on top of Chromium. For shame!
Microsoft needs to do everything they can to promote Edge in order to capture market share.
Edge and Microsoft have nowhere near the browser share needed to pull this behavior. And this differentiator is a detractor for me rather than a useful feature.
But then again this wasn't built for the end-users, this is clearly revenue base. Just another reason to not use Edge.
But how much money can they possibly be making from a deal like this? It surely is a blip on MS’ radar. That’s what so confusing about dumb moves like this while Edge is still trying to gain market share.
They don't need any promotion. They'll just achieve domination through bundling edge with windows and making it impossible to switch.
I used to have a more positive version of microsoft up until the point they started flexing their evil muscles to push low quality products into technically unsophisticated users. Edge+Bing+Office+Windows feeding on each other is the greatest example right now.
Gladly we acted as quickly as possible where I worked to leave github when they announced the msft acquisition, so at least my part is covered.
As if Windows itself is free. I mean it technically is, you can use it just fine without activation, but isn't the cost of these licenses supposed to pay for everything?
The release a new Chromium-based browser, Edge - and it's well received, people actually like it as an alternative to Chrome. Sure, it has a very long way to go in terms of market share, but it's on a solid footing.
And now they seem determined to give it a bad name - I can imagine corporations not wanting software like this in their networks, and mandating Chrome instead...
Bloatware is a far too benign term for this. The browser should treat financial transactions like the post office treats a letter - never mess with the contents, just move it where it needs to go. This is a major breach of trust. It pisses me off and I don't even use Edge (or Chrome, or Windows) unless I have to, which is rare.
Analog world analogy: Post office inserting advertisements for financing into sealed private letters.
Yeah I don't have an anti Microsoft sentiment like the loud posters in these threads and I'm actually interested in chrome alternatives for cross platform browser (chrome battery usage is abysmal) but this shit makes me permanently ignore Edge. Bundling 3rs party commercial extensions in the browser - no thanks.
Microsoft Edge’s Zip payments integration is already available in the Canary and Dev channels, and it will roll out to everyone in the stable release of Microsoft Edge 96
Edge 96 released to Stable channel two days ago.
My prediction is blowback to this quintessentially stupid product decision will result in it getting pulled within the next few weeks and the firing or transition to a different unit of whatever moron approved this PR disaster.
Jesus Christ! Even for M$, this is beyond the pale - combining pseudo-monopoly power, dark UX patterns, and high-interest credit. What's next, will airlines start dropping adverts for payday loans when their flight path goes over a poor neighborhood?
It seems like we are in the "extending credit to broke people is so lucrative that regular non-finance companies are getting in on it" stage of the current bubble.
To be fair, if implemented correctly (read "as an opt-in"), that would have been a pretty useful feature. The browser already allows you to setup credit/debit card as payment options. Having an option to setup other payment providers sounds like a natural extension of that. The main issue is how they did it: as a forced feature screaming at your face, instead of something you have to setup yourself. On the flip side, I can see how difficult it would be discoverability of the feature if they just stashed it in a menu somewhere. Neither extreme is perfect. I would have erred on the side of not annoying most users.
I've been on the precipice of dumping Edge based on their constant re-enabling of the shopping popups, this might be the shove from behind that makes me jump.
Very telling of the financial state of the average American. Everyone is hawking interest-free monthly payments, usually through Klarna (which Microsoft Store partnered with, making this especially strange). Great tool if used responsibly, but given companies advertising increasingly expensive crap and how most Americans can't save $1,000, you know this will just increase the class of the permanently-indebted
I'm putting together a new laptop for my very elderly father-in-law - he basically just wants it for card games and e-mail. He doesn't even web browse.
I was planning an S-mode windows laptop for security reasons - Windows Marketplace only.
But first I looked into it and was shocked that they've replaced Solitaire, Hearts, and Minesweeper with freemium products that are bloated with ads and have a monthly or yearly fee to get rid of the ads. And of course, how many ads have horrifying notices like "your computer is being hacked!!!!" ? Perfect for an elderly and forgetful luddite.
And because of the onerous signing to submit to the marketplace, even common open-source software isn't there.
This is a massive step back by Microsoft - he just wants his old Solitaire and Hearts and to play some Sudoku, but they killed those and replaced them with freemium subscription products and the rest of the Windows Marketplace is similar.
So this is tangentially-related to the article, but my point: very disappointed to see MS jumping on the modern business model for software.
Everybody treats this news like something out of thin air. Microsoft Edge has been "enhancing" e-commerce transactions for a while now: coupons, cashback, and price histograms. I actually like those features although their usefulness is mostly marginal. When Edge ensures me that I'm buying it at the lowest price, it's reassuring and welcome, but the coupon experience is 99% "we've tried all possible coupons and sorry, nothing worked". I don't even know what's up with the cashback thing.
Anyway, Edge has been integrating these features for a while, they've been welcomed or at least haven't been an issue. Now, they added another feature which seems like a minor extension to what's already there, and I can understand why the team didn't think it wasn't as big a deal as it was discussed here.
I like Edge, I think it's the only candidate that can surpass Chrome at some point, and I want the team to be positively responsive to the criticism here. Fingers crossed.
Apples market share is further increasing. The mismanagement of Microsoft is detrimental to the computing market. Someone needs to be grabbing control of Microsoft and giving it a singular vision. Fire those that undermine it. Less employees, Less marketing, more engineering. Heart disease will kill this company in the long term.
Wow I am shocked this is remotely legal. I don’t understand why the government isn’t doing something. They got in trouble for so much less for what they pulled in the 90s with IE.
I felt the same about the new math solver[1] they've added. Sure it's useful but it doesn't belong in a web browser's base install, this is what extensions are for. Same with Zip pay, if you want to use it, you go and install the extension.
[+] [-] jetrink|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mountain_Skies|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcodiego|4 years ago|reply
Which reputation?
[+] [-] isoprophlex|4 years ago|reply
IMO Microsoft is actively working to make computing more horrible.
[+] [-] csdvrx|4 years ago|reply
Like you, at first I thought some features were sleazy, like the coupon. But after using it a bit, I like it: whenever I'm going to buy something on Amazon or somewhere else, I having a big popup telling me it's cheaper on this alternative store OR that I forgot to clip a coupon on amazon is REALLY helpful! It's like shopping.google.com right inside your browser, on a push basis.
It's really hard to make a product that's satisfactory to everybody. You may hate the coupon feature - but I love it. I'm not a big fan of debt to finance consumption, BUT maybe there's a student out there who needs that to splurge on cheap hardware during blackfriday and make a profit by parting it out on ebay?
Also, a feature that's just "meh" can be safely ignored, like the various things Word can do: no, you don't have to display every toolbar if you don't use them.
If the feature is worse than "meh", say if it goes to far, Edge can become a source to made a free software browser, like Chrome became chromium for people who value their freedom and privacy.
And considering all the naughty changes Google has been adding (ex: to make it harder to do ad blocking), maybe that's for the better: I'd rather have Microsoft employees fix the codebase and backport features from upstream, than volunteers: this frees the volunteers so they can concentrate on the more important (and easy stuff), and leave the boring stuff to Microsoft.
Is it more complicated to have chrome -> chromium -> edge -> edgium -> something you will be able to use?
Yes.
But so what? As long as it works, I don't care much.
[+] [-] aaaaaaaaaaab|4 years ago|reply
Prime example of organizational failure...
[+] [-] zeruch|4 years ago|reply
Consumer apathy/inertia is MS's biggest benefit.
[+] [-] AshamedCaptain|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bladegash|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Shadonototra|4 years ago|reply
i keep trying to make things change (on my level) but it's hard, whenever you criticize them, you are seen as a useless "troll"
fanboism makes people blind!
[+] [-] FDSGSG|4 years ago|reply
I think you are hugely underestimating the audience for this kind of thing. This can be worth far far more than a few millions.
But yeah, of course for the rich HN audience this is an anti-feature. For the folks taking payday loans? Probably not!
[+] [-] IAmGraydon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tyleo|4 years ago|reply
On the other hand, the continuous own-goals like this leave me unsurprised. It’s like Microsoft wants to create a bad browser.
[+] [-] kreeben|4 years ago|reply
Also, there's a lack of benign browsers in the market. Even team FF tries to make your mom buy things she doesn't really want or need, with their Firefox Suggest feature.
[+] [-] AlexandrB|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 05|4 years ago|reply
I would be amazed if we were talking Firefox, but Google pushes Chrome down your throat pretty hard..
[+] [-] sirius87|4 years ago|reply
For elderly non-tech folks like my Dad's close friend, signing into Chrome Profile/Sync (whatever it's now called) is like "signing into the internet". "I can check my e-mail, browse the internet". He doesn't remember a single password, except for Google and Facebook. He doesn't know "what passwords do".
If any other browser opens up for whatever reason (sometimes PDF files open in Edge), he's totally at sea.
[+] [-] howinteresting|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgellow|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lagmos|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notriddle|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saint-loup|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulryanrogers|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dheera|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freediver|4 years ago|reply
Then in a span of two days this plus https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/11/is-microsoft-...
Shooting yourself in the foot would be a correct characterization. Would be fun to see a video of the meeting when they decided this was a great idea.
It almost signals a change in leadership that took place at the Edge team few months back, and a new product direction that Microsoft may regret in the future.
[+] [-] bmarquez|4 years ago|reply
This just happened to me last week. Microsoft Edge turned on syncing without my permission, with options including passwords and payment methods turned on.
I only used it for logging into Microsoft products but I don't even think I want to do that anymore, due to the loss of trust.
[+] [-] Tempest1981|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] donmcronald|4 years ago|reply
I honestly thought Edge would be able to take market share from Chrome because it was pretty good for a while if you were willing to log in to your MS account on all your devices. I like the syncing. The QR code scanning to get something onto my phone is handy.
I thought MS was going to make a less creepy version of Edge. Now it seems like the opposite. They're going to build a 90s style toolbar infected monstrosity on top of Chromium. For shame!
1.https://www.howtogeek.com/721250/how-to-turn-off-online-shop...
[+] [-] TedShiller|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andy0x2a|4 years ago|reply
Edge and Microsoft have nowhere near the browser share needed to pull this behavior. And this differentiator is a detractor for me rather than a useful feature.
But then again this wasn't built for the end-users, this is clearly revenue base. Just another reason to not use Edge.
[+] [-] lozenge|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] merrywhether|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] siproprio|4 years ago|reply
I used to have a more positive version of microsoft up until the point they started flexing their evil muscles to push low quality products into technically unsophisticated users. Edge+Bing+Office+Windows feeding on each other is the greatest example right now.
Gladly we acted as quickly as possible where I worked to leave github when they announced the msft acquisition, so at least my part is covered.
[+] [-] grishka|4 years ago|reply
As if Windows itself is free. I mean it technically is, you can use it just fine without activation, but isn't the cost of these licenses supposed to pay for everything?
[+] [-] GordonS|4 years ago|reply
The release a new Chromium-based browser, Edge - and it's well received, people actually like it as an alternative to Chrome. Sure, it has a very long way to go in terms of market share, but it's on a solid footing.
And now they seem determined to give it a bad name - I can imagine corporations not wanting software like this in their networks, and mandating Chrome instead...
[+] [-] ahartmetz|4 years ago|reply
Analog world analogy: Post office inserting advertisements for financing into sealed private letters.
[+] [-] moonchrome|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rkagerer|4 years ago|reply
Edge 96 released to Stable channel two days ago.
My prediction is blowback to this quintessentially stupid product decision will result in it getting pulled within the next few weeks and the firing or transition to a different unit of whatever moron approved this PR disaster.
[+] [-] GekkePrutser|4 years ago|reply
You had one job, Microsoft. To take Chrome and make it less privacy-invasive and more clean.
[+] [-] ineptech|4 years ago|reply
It seems like we are in the "extending credit to broke people is so lucrative that regular non-finance companies are getting in on it" stage of the current bubble.
[+] [-] rigelbm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vidanay|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zz865|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Pxtl|4 years ago|reply
I was planning an S-mode windows laptop for security reasons - Windows Marketplace only.
But first I looked into it and was shocked that they've replaced Solitaire, Hearts, and Minesweeper with freemium products that are bloated with ads and have a monthly or yearly fee to get rid of the ads. And of course, how many ads have horrifying notices like "your computer is being hacked!!!!" ? Perfect for an elderly and forgetful luddite.
And because of the onerous signing to submit to the marketplace, even common open-source software isn't there.
This is a massive step back by Microsoft - he just wants his old Solitaire and Hearts and to play some Sudoku, but they killed those and replaced them with freemium subscription products and the rest of the Windows Marketplace is similar.
So this is tangentially-related to the article, but my point: very disappointed to see MS jumping on the modern business model for software.
[+] [-] sedatk|4 years ago|reply
Anyway, Edge has been integrating these features for a while, they've been welcomed or at least haven't been an issue. Now, they added another feature which seems like a minor extension to what's already there, and I can understand why the team didn't think it wasn't as big a deal as it was discussed here.
I like Edge, I think it's the only candidate that can surpass Chrome at some point, and I want the team to be positively responsive to the criticism here. Fingers crossed.
[+] [-] devwastaken|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peanut_worm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pipeline_peak|4 years ago|reply
Imagine forcing the world to use your little chrome distro. It’s like they find reasons to make us hate them.
[+] [-] cube00|4 years ago|reply
[1] https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2021/05/21/preview-micro...