the paper is surprisingly readable (although i don't know enough to say whether it's correct or not) - http://arxiv.org/pdf/1108.4161v1
this is a pity - it would have been a very cool approach if true. the criticism seems quite general, unfortunately (it identifies some consequences that come from associating gravity with entropy and shows that they conflict with experimental results).
the paper / main link is a theoretical argument based on an earlier experiment using neutrons and gravity. that earlier work is critical because it ties together QM and gravity observationally (very hard to do because gravity is very weak compared to the other forces that are usually important in QM).
[old text:
i've been poking around and this set of slides (slow to load) gives some background on the neutron / gravity observations - http://admin.triumf.ca/docs/seminars/Sem5145306260-71715-1.S... . there's a slide almost exactly half way through called "Experiment on QM and Gravity Using UCN" - that and the intro above are relevant, i think. the experiment involves increasing the height of a "passageway" until neutrons can get to the other side. the classical interpretation would expect the number to come through to vary smoothly with height, but in practice there's a minimum height, related to the QM wavefunction (which includes a term with gravity, since that is the force acting on the neutrons).]
ps this kind of work (ultra-cold neutrons + gravity) is just as interesting and important as the higgs particle work at the lhc. it's also cheaper and smarter. so it's depressing that what is reported in the popular press is so distorted (by scientists themselves, who need to drum up money and support for "big science") - we see a huge amount of coverage of the lhc and nothing on amazing work like this.
As someone who is very interested in this but feels a little intimidated by arxiv, I'd be very interested in seeing more posts about the results.
(Either that or subscribe to a site that can summarize the results for an easier read, linking to the technical papers for further exploration. Being so interested in the discoveries of what we're made of, without taking time off to fully understand the math or dig through arxiv, I'd happily pay for such a physics news/education site.)
Also, that second link has such a good title. Lots of good, visual info too.
ps this kind of work (ultra-cold neutrons + gravity) is just as interesting and important as the higgs particle work at the lhc. it's also cheaper and smarter. so it's depressing that what is reported in the popular press is so distorted (by scientists themselves, who need to drum up money and support for "big science") - we see a huge amount of coverage of the lhc and nothing on amazing work like this
Hmm... Stackoverflow/Hacker-News for pure science ?
How does this prove that gravity is not an emergant phenomena?
Doesn't this only claim that gravity and entropy don't have some type of a first order (direct) relationship?
Rant:
I never understood how you can explain gravity as 1) a bending of space-time caused by mass and then 2) pretend it's a force transmited by "gravitons".
If 1) is true then it's an effect (phenomena), not a cause (force). If 2) is true than it's a cause (force), not an effect (phenomena).
Feynman has expressed his opinion on this in one of the Messenger lectures on the Character of Physical Law that he gave at Cornell.
This is an example of the wide range of beautiful ways of
describing nature. When people say that nature must have
causality, you can use Newton's law; or if they say that
nature must be stated in terms of a minimum principle,
you talk about it this last way; or if they insist that nature must have a local field - sure, you can do that. The question is: which one is right? If these various alternatives are not exactly equivalent mathematically, if for certain ones there will be different consequences than for others, then all we
have to do is to experiment to find out which way nature
actually chooses to do it. People may come along and argue
philosophically that they like one better than another; but
we have learned from such experience that all philosophical
intuitions about what nature is going to do fail. One just
has to work out all the possibilities, and try all the alternatives. But in the particular case I am talking about the
theories are exactly equivalent. Mathematically each of the
three different formulations, Newton's law, the local field
method and the minimum principle, gives exactly the same
consequences. What do we do then? You will read in all
the books that we cannot decide scientifically on one or the
other. That is true. They are equivalent scientifically. It is impossible to make a decision, because there is no experimental way to distinguish between them if all the consequences are the same. But psychologically they are very
different in two ways. First, philosophically you like them
or do not like them; and training is the only way to beat
that disease. Second, psychologically they are different
because they are completely unequivalent when you are
trying to guess new laws.
No, this paper claims that introducing gravity as an emergent phenomenon in Verlinde's framework breaks quantum mechanics. He shows that Verlinde's proposal changes the Hamiltonian. However, the solutions to the standard Schrodinger equation have been measured in experiments with ultra-cold neutrons and shown to agree (ergo, disagreeing with Verlinde's theory).
Regarding your "rant": either way, it's still a force. Gravity still causes things to move. How that force is explained is clearly different in different theories. General Relativity suggests (1). Quantum Gravity theories suggest (2). Newton didn't really explain how it was mediated.
You could apply the same rant to QED: Either electrodynamics is caused by the bending of a vector potential by electric charge or it's a force transmitted by photons. The two statements are equivalent. But with gravity, we're not sure if quantum part is true.
The same way you can explain electromagnetism as a field throughout space-time, and then pretend that it's a force transmitted by photons. Feynman once famously claimed that no one really understood quantum mechanics, if that makes you feel any better; I'm not sure that's strictly true, but perhaps we've simply defined understanding down a bit :-)
Usual disclaimer about the pending detection of the graviton, etc, etc.
Your last sentence draws an arbitrary distinction between a "force" and a "phenomenon" which does not appear to be borne out in reality, and if I may say so, is at the heart of your trouble understanding why both 1) and 2) are correct.
Pictures 1 and 2 are equivalent. See chapter 18 in Misner, Thorne, Wheeler. We can't distinguish a universe where space is bent by mass from one with flat space-time that has a massless spin-2 particle (a graviton). The flat space-time in the latter case would be unobservable in principle.
A phenomena is the summation of several causes. Even if gravity is a phenomena, there are still the causes for it to look for. And if it's not, well then we still have to find the single cause. We don't even have that.
What strikes me as odd is that entropy dictates things eventually break away from each other while gravity pulls things closer. The two are at odds with each other. And that entropy is a phenomena itself.
As pointed out in the slashdot comments for the same article, this article has not been peer reviewed, "(Submitted on 21 Aug 2011)", so any conclusiveness implied by the headline is false / misleading.
Moreover, it's not really an "experimental" result; it's an argument that this theory is inconsistent with certain known facts. The known facts were previously derived from experiment, true, but the way the headline is written makes it sound like someone devised an experiment specifically to test gravity-as-emergence, and the results are now in, which is not what happened.
The new paper purports to deal with those criticisms. To my limited understanding it appears to be an argument against how the Hamiltonian is currently formulated in Verlinde's theory than a proof against entropic gravity.
So, a classical theoretical model tailored to exactly match known results is validated. And a brand-spankin-new theoretical model based on a different approach is invalidated.
This means all assumptions of the classical model are correct and all those of the new model are incorrect? Doesn't sound right to me.
These tests are validating / invalidating the predictive power of specific models, not testing their underlying assumptions. Issues of supervenience will not be worked out for certain until we have models of which we are more confident.
The motion gravity causes is explainable by the warping of 3D space that it causes. The real mystery to me is WHY matter warps space. It follows logically that if a lot of matter in 1 place warps space a lot, a little matter somewhere else warps space a little. So, at some very elemental level whats going on in an atom warps our universe.
Isn't the fact that entropy increases over time itself just a result of a priori statistical laws and the condition of zero entropy at the Big Bang 13 billion years ago, rather than a physical law of the universe?
Okay -- maybe this is a stupid question, and I'm a college dropout (and never took a physics class), but here's a stab at plain logic:
Isn't there a law of thermodynamics that says that entropy increases in a system over time? And doesn't general relativity state that time is a function of gravity or acceleration or relative mass?
So wouldn't increasing gravity/acceleration/mass, i.e. relatively increasing the passage of time, also relatively increase entropy?
And if that's true, then wouldn't the equation work both ways -- such that an increase in entropy led to an increase in gravity?
Again, sorry if that's crazy, but I'd like to hear anyone's opinion on it...
> Isn't there a law of thermodynamics that says that entropy increases in a system over time?
Not exactly. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that all processes cause the entropy of a system to increase. But entropy doesn't naturally increase over time without any processes happening.
> And doesn't general relativity state that time is a function of gravity or acceleration or relative mass?
The apparent passage of time ("proper time" in a particular reference frame) is influenced by gravity and acceleration.
> So wouldn't increasing gravity/acceleration/mass, i.e. relatively increasing the passage of time, also relatively increase entropy?
What actually happens is that gravity and acceleration decrease the passage of time (as compared to a reference frame not influenced by the gravity/acceleration.)
So if there are two otherwise identical experiments, the one with more gravity/acceleration will experience less time passage, and accumulate less entropy. But since increases in entropy aren't a direct result of the passage of time, it doesn't follow that increases in entropy lead to more passage of time, or any effect on gravity.
Hopefully that makes sense and is mostly correct, it's been a while since I studied this.
[+] [-] andrewcooke|14 years ago|reply
this is a pity - it would have been a very cool approach if true. the criticism seems quite general, unfortunately (it identifies some consequences that come from associating gravity with entropy and shows that they conflict with experimental results).
the paper / main link is a theoretical argument based on an earlier experiment using neutrons and gravity. that earlier work is critical because it ties together QM and gravity observationally (very hard to do because gravity is very weak compared to the other forces that are usually important in QM).
update: here's a better link than the slides below, which includes an explanation of the earlier experimental work - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110418083349.ht...
[old text: i've been poking around and this set of slides (slow to load) gives some background on the neutron / gravity observations - http://admin.triumf.ca/docs/seminars/Sem5145306260-71715-1.S... . there's a slide almost exactly half way through called "Experiment on QM and Gravity Using UCN" - that and the intro above are relevant, i think. the experiment involves increasing the height of a "passageway" until neutrons can get to the other side. the classical interpretation would expect the number to come through to vary smoothly with height, but in practice there's a minimum height, related to the QM wavefunction (which includes a term with gravity, since that is the force acting on the neutrons).]
ps this kind of work (ultra-cold neutrons + gravity) is just as interesting and important as the higgs particle work at the lhc. it's also cheaper and smarter. so it's depressing that what is reported in the popular press is so distorted (by scientists themselves, who need to drum up money and support for "big science") - we see a huge amount of coverage of the lhc and nothing on amazing work like this.
[+] [-] joeyespo|14 years ago|reply
As someone who is very interested in this but feels a little intimidated by arxiv, I'd be very interested in seeing more posts about the results.
(Either that or subscribe to a site that can summarize the results for an easier read, linking to the technical papers for further exploration. Being so interested in the discoveries of what we're made of, without taking time off to fully understand the math or dig through arxiv, I'd happily pay for such a physics news/education site.)
Also, that second link has such a good title. Lots of good, visual info too.
[+] [-] sandGorgon|14 years ago|reply
Hmm... Stackoverflow/Hacker-News for pure science ?
[+] [-] powertower|14 years ago|reply
Doesn't this only claim that gravity and entropy don't have some type of a first order (direct) relationship?
Rant:
I never understood how you can explain gravity as 1) a bending of space-time caused by mass and then 2) pretend it's a force transmited by "gravitons".
If 1) is true then it's an effect (phenomena), not a cause (force). If 2) is true than it's a cause (force), not an effect (phenomena).
[+] [-] vinutheraj|14 years ago|reply
This is an example of the wide range of beautiful ways of describing nature. When people say that nature must have causality, you can use Newton's law; or if they say that nature must be stated in terms of a minimum principle, you talk about it this last way; or if they insist that nature must have a local field - sure, you can do that. The question is: which one is right? If these various alternatives are not exactly equivalent mathematically, if for certain ones there will be different consequences than for others, then all we have to do is to experiment to find out which way nature actually chooses to do it. People may come along and argue philosophically that they like one better than another; but we have learned from such experience that all philosophical intuitions about what nature is going to do fail. One just has to work out all the possibilities, and try all the alternatives. But in the particular case I am talking about the theories are exactly equivalent. Mathematically each of the three different formulations, Newton's law, the local field method and the minimum principle, gives exactly the same consequences. What do we do then? You will read in all the books that we cannot decide scientifically on one or the other. That is true. They are equivalent scientifically. It is impossible to make a decision, because there is no experimental way to distinguish between them if all the consequences are the same. But psychologically they are very different in two ways. First, philosophically you like them or do not like them; and training is the only way to beat that disease. Second, psychologically they are different because they are completely unequivalent when you are trying to guess new laws.
[+] [-] mattheww|14 years ago|reply
Regarding your "rant": either way, it's still a force. Gravity still causes things to move. How that force is explained is clearly different in different theories. General Relativity suggests (1). Quantum Gravity theories suggest (2). Newton didn't really explain how it was mediated.
You could apply the same rant to QED: Either electrodynamics is caused by the bending of a vector potential by electric charge or it's a force transmitted by photons. The two statements are equivalent. But with gravity, we're not sure if quantum part is true.
[+] [-] sipior|14 years ago|reply
Usual disclaimer about the pending detection of the graviton, etc, etc.
Your last sentence draws an arbitrary distinction between a "force" and a "phenomenon" which does not appear to be borne out in reality, and if I may say so, is at the heart of your trouble understanding why both 1) and 2) are correct.
[+] [-] niklasl|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nutjob123|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Xlythe|14 years ago|reply
What strikes me as odd is that entropy dictates things eventually break away from each other while gravity pulls things closer. The two are at odds with each other. And that entropy is a phenomena itself.
[+] [-] molecule|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _delirium|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beefman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dn_Ab|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] diminish|14 years ago|reply
Could someone explain, what is meant exactly by `emergent'? What is the antonyme?
For example. I mean can't we assume all standard quantum model implies all quantum phenomena are emergent?
[+] [-] noglorp|14 years ago|reply
This means all assumptions of the classical model are correct and all those of the new model are incorrect? Doesn't sound right to me.
These tests are validating / invalidating the predictive power of specific models, not testing their underlying assumptions. Issues of supervenience will not be worked out for certain until we have models of which we are more confident.
[+] [-] Hawramani|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dicroce|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] selven|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beefman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noduerme|14 years ago|reply
Isn't there a law of thermodynamics that says that entropy increases in a system over time? And doesn't general relativity state that time is a function of gravity or acceleration or relative mass?
So wouldn't increasing gravity/acceleration/mass, i.e. relatively increasing the passage of time, also relatively increase entropy?
And if that's true, then wouldn't the equation work both ways -- such that an increase in entropy led to an increase in gravity?
Again, sorry if that's crazy, but I'd like to hear anyone's opinion on it...
[+] [-] elwin|14 years ago|reply
Not exactly. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that all processes cause the entropy of a system to increase. But entropy doesn't naturally increase over time without any processes happening.
> And doesn't general relativity state that time is a function of gravity or acceleration or relative mass?
The apparent passage of time ("proper time" in a particular reference frame) is influenced by gravity and acceleration.
> So wouldn't increasing gravity/acceleration/mass, i.e. relatively increasing the passage of time, also relatively increase entropy?
What actually happens is that gravity and acceleration decrease the passage of time (as compared to a reference frame not influenced by the gravity/acceleration.)
So if there are two otherwise identical experiments, the one with more gravity/acceleration will experience less time passage, and accumulate less entropy. But since increases in entropy aren't a direct result of the passage of time, it doesn't follow that increases in entropy lead to more passage of time, or any effect on gravity.
Hopefully that makes sense and is mostly correct, it's been a while since I studied this.