[redmare80]

I am in fact blaming "the other side" for a horrible outcome (ERs packed with covid patients when that is unnecessary, leading to worse outcomes for non covid patients). What you've said is misleading.

> It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation

And it is people refusing to get vaccinated that greatly exacerbates this horrible situation. What you've said is misleading.

> We are in this mess together and everyone is spreading the virus, vaccinated or not

Vaccinated people spread the virus less and go to the hospital less. What you've said is misleading.

[ahofmann]

It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation, and the situation is much worse than it could be. The problem has been compounded by the ailing health care system in Germany. As others have described, the number of ICU beds has declined in the last two years. And this is not only because there is a lack of (badly paid) staff. But also because the hospitals were initially paid for each bed provided (between 150 and 200 € per day) and now get a bonus only if they have over 85% occupancy. To repeat: hospitals are currently financially rewarded for working at the performance limit. This is a factor that is not talked about enough. There is currently no good reason for hospitals in Germany to build additional ICU capacity. Every year in Germany 127000 people die from smoking. 74000 from alcohol and 25000 people died from the flu in 2017/2018. Our health system has a high burden all the time and Corona contributes to it. But it is far too simplistic to say that the unvaccinated would add to the problem to the point that the health care system is in danger of toppling over. There are many contributing factors and all of them need to be addressed with the right measures. We are thinking about forcibly vaccinating people who don't want it. Is that an appropriate response? I don't think so.

[ahofmann]

Just one more thought on hospitals: I personally know 4 German, one Dutch and one Belgian staff in intensive care. At times in the last two years, we have had a situation that has never been seen since World War II: the staff went home in the afternoon because there was nothing left to do. The hospitals were simply empty. That's not the case at the moment, of course, but it shows that the actual situation is often different from what's being spread in the media.

[MauranKilom]

> Vaccinated people spread the virus less

I recently learned that viral loads is actually the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who test positive for COVID19. That's not technically the same thing as the rate of spread, but it is really first and foremost the severity of the disease that the vaccines help with.

(Agree with everything else.)

[dukeofdoom]

A bucket with 3 holes will get the floor just as wet as a bucket with 6 holes given enough time. And covid will be here for a long time.

In fact the buckets with 3 holes are now encouraged to walk around the room.