I had a horrible experience recently due to a demolition of a 1930s house just a dozen feet away from dozen feet away from our home. I have 3 kids 10 or under, 1 aged 2. The home's exterior was covered in lead paint, probably all original. The contractors doing the job were completely ignorant of the dangers of lead, and did not follow the basic EPA guidelines (e.g. laying down plastic, picking up paint chips, paint chips scattering into our yard, etc). It was basically an illegal operation.
We kept mentioning the problem to them, but you could tell they were ignorant of the dangers. The general contractors quote was "I'd be doing this the same if it was my daughter in your house".
Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law. Luckily that stalled them for the day it took the city to get out to the site and shut it down. Now the GC was no idiot, but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem. When they resumed work, plastic was laid down, they picked up the paint chips, but none of the workers wore masks. If I didn't aggressively take action, nothing would have been done.
> Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law.
When in doubt, call up your city's code enforcement office. They love showing up to work sites and catching contractors violating code. And the contractors will listen, too.
Would lead paints have a relatively unique RF refractive signature? Wondering if flying a drone with some wave guides could inventory buidlings with external lead paint, and then use the data for permitting to require additional environmental controls.
>but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem.
I've had similar experience when talking with contractors about it. I've been told multiple times that unless a child eats a handful everyday its not a problem.
I'd love to see a massive project to test every child in the nation. It's hard to plan without good data. Once we know who is the worst off, we can better protect everyone. Of course, property owners have massive political clout, and they don't want to find any problems.
Were they wearing masks while working? Lead is dangerous, but outdoors and masked, the risk is low. I kind of doubt that there’s even a big risk to your kids if you’re in the next house over. The problem is fine particulates which don’t dissipate quickly in open air.
Thanks for standing up for your neighbors and community. We need more people like you who can sound the alarm for us who are unaware of the hazards all around us.
In 2014 I consulted my father, a lawyer, in writing an amicus brief to a lawsuit relating to lead exposure in baby food.
Basically, lead exposure testing in food can have highly-variable results because of how the particles adhere to the food substrate, variability between food batches, and the way the exposure tests work. Because of this, lead exposure testing generally involves testing several samples and taking the mean to estimate the real level of exposure.
Despite several samples showing high levels of lead, the defense got off by claiming that the geometric mean was the correct average to use to infer the total exposure. This is obviously incorrect because the geometric mean is a multiplicative mean. With a geometric mean, all you need is one sample with lead exposure close to 0 to get a mean that's close to 0, even if all the other samples tested positive for extreme levels of lead exposure.
Just as a sanity check, we checked official literature on food toxicology, and every resource we could find stated that using arithmetic mean was the correct methodology, and not one mentioned geometric means.
The defense ended up winning the case, which is absolutely horrifying because 1.) baby food is the most dangerous product imaginable to contain lead and 2.) now there is a legal precedent to defend yourself against lead exposure claims using total BS statistics.
> “But if you don’t test for it, it’s like it doesn’t exist.”
This is exactly it. During our house purchasing process, our state gives you the so-called right to know if lead exists in a house. But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue. So basically, you need to test for yourself. Meanwhile, the state has covered their ass by providing the requirement of the disclosure, even though the disclosure is completely worthless. The same goes for radon testing. And it's practically impossible to get an offer accepted if you do not waive your right to test for lead and radon before purchasing.
It's just irritating to me that industries and the government go through all this trouble to do nothing but cover their ass and stop right before they do something that would actually help the issue in the real world. Additionally, nearly all of the stuff you do when purchasing a house protects somebody else except you as a buyer. It's amazing to me that there aren't stricter requirements, standards for testing, and regulations around testing for lead and radon, two things that are easy to test for but have seriously adverse health effects.
Also, it's surprising just how much stuff still has lead in it. When I was researching ideas for a compost bin in my backyard, many suggested wire mesh (aka chicken wire, wire cloth, etc.). However, I found out that the galvanizing process leaves a fair amount of lead on the wire, which could then leach into the resulting compost, then the ground the compost is used on, and then your garden vegetables. Just touching the stuff at the store now means you have lead dust on your hands.
Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it?
> Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it?
I guess I fit in the hobbyist you mention here so I'll try to chime in and explain. I use lead solder for my drone repairs and a few small home automation projects. Lead solder is not really dangerous at a hobbyist scale because the usages are spaced enough that even if you weren't washing your hands each month after soldering the measurable lead in your (or people around you) blood stream wouldn't be anywhere near worrying. In a way it's similar to asbestos, while it's 100% bad, the mere fact of studying in a room that has asbestos in the ventilation probably won't have an impact on your health. It's the longer exposure of say a teacher that worked 30 years in that environment that's much more dangerous.
There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs.
Every realtor has told me not to test for lead paint. If the house is older it has it, so if you test you have to check the box and then the new buyer will make you do something about it. If you don't test though you can remain ignorant.
Every house I've lived in has been painted a few times since lead paint was common, which covers up the problem. Getting rid of lead paint is possible, but not really affordable.
Only once have I physically encountered leaded solder, and immediately wrapped it up with the lead-acid batteries I had to take to hazardous waste in my city.
I always try to reduce the exposure I have for myself if at all possible. My family's house was built in the 80's and we've ensured that there's no leaded paint on the house or water pipes on the property.
> But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue
You're using moralizing language, but what else do you think could happen here? Barring government funding, by-the-book remediation costs a lot of money. So the two options are either completely remediating the lead and offer that as a selling point, or just kicking the can down the road ("I don't know but it was painted before 1978 so make your own informed guess"). If the seller checked the box for positive existence of lead, they would be doing you no favors since you'd be getting the exact same physical house, but would also have to check the known-lead box when selling the house down the line.
If you only want to buy a house that has been fully remediated, you could make your offer contingent upon that. But since your offer has to be competitive with the rest of the market, that would cost a similar amount to buying the house as it is and then doing your own remediation afterwards.
If you go to rent that house out and the renters have small kids, then you can no longer kick the can down the road. It makes for a painful immediate situation, but barring government funded remediation or straight up mandating that every bit of lead paint needs to be remediated before a house can be sold (despite it being fine for the majority of people), I don't see how else it could be handled.
>Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded.
This used to be true (I remember having to grind through many different solders on different boards for work and they sucked compared to the Multicore 60/40 5 core rosin fluxed solder), but modern alloys are pretty good. Whatever you're using you must use ventilation too, so the comments about flux are already answered.
I feel that there's a much wider range of soldering tasks that solder has to cope with now. In the past hobbyists had single or dual layer PCBs with big pads and through hole components, or stranded wire and big connector buckets. But now we have tiny surface mount components on tiny pads, or a big FET on a 12 layer board with a big ground plane. If it's something you're doing at work you get used to the feel of it and can set your iron station up accordingly, but if you're a hobbyist you don't get that practice and set up time.
I don't understand why people wouldn't bother testing for radon - the mitigation systems tend to be cheap when compared to getting rid of lead, which might involve tearing out all your drywall.
A few years ago I bought a 90 year old house and it was an eye opening experience.
My state has fairly strict lead laws and a lead paint test is required if you purchase a house built before a certain date and have children below a certain age. But I only knew that because I carefully read all paperwork in the process. No realtor mentioned it, but begrudgingly agreed when asked about it. None of my friends with kids had done a lead test when they purchased homes built before the cutoff date. Many of whom have gone on to do renovations.
So I get the lead test (independent lead testing company as required by state law) and many painted wooden surface had lead paint at the base layer (but not the top). The required mediation was for all lead paint to be removed from friction surfaces and windowsills, and all other surfaces needed intact paint over the lead paint.
It cost $40k for the remediation and they did an absolutely horrible job. Zero common sense. It didn't fit the letter of the law or spirit of the law. The house would have been hardly safer than before mediation. Yet it passed independent inspection with no problem. I had to fight hard to get the remediation company to come back and fix the sloppy work. It took almost $60k and delayed moving in to the house for four months.
I came away from the experience convinced that the lead remediation operations in my area are a racket. The inspectors don't care. The remediators don't care. And I only know one other family that even bothered to do the required testing when they bought their house. And this is in a fairly affluent area. So it does not surprise me that we have a lead poisoning problem.
As an American living in the UK, it's interesting to see the disparity in almost all aspects of the treatment of lead. In the US, for example, there is an abundance of research and activism coupled with laws and a huge abatement/remediation industry. In the UK, however, where there is a large stock of old housing that very likely contains lead paint, pipes, and other products, there is nothing comparable.
Are children in the UK silently suffering from lead poisoning, or "losing IQ points"? I have lead paint in my house and If I took my children to get tested at the GP, I would expect a strange look in response.
Compare this to asbestos, where a survey is always recommended when purchasing an older property in the UK. While I think a lead survey would be suggested in the US if purchasing a pre-1978 property (and is required in some areas when renting to a family with children), I would guess only a handful are done here every year.
I suspect there is lead pipe in my water supply in London, UK. I got a lab test done in Germany -- I checked the German standards and I believe they mandate the use of the appropriate testing techniques; it seems impossible to get a reliable test done in London. The measured lead concentration was not above the last EU recomended safe level before they decided there was no safe level, but it wasn't much lower than that either.
The agency in London responsible, Thames Water, will replace any lead pipe in the public network leading to your building if you agree to replace any lead pipe on your property within 3 months.
But I live in a "leasehold" flat (common in London). So "you" for the purposes of that agreement would be not me but the "freeholder", who is responsible for building maintenance. To get them to do anything, I have to go to a lot of effort to get action out of the "management company" hired by the freeholder (and probably then be blamed by other leaseholders -- most of whom don't live here -- for costing them money to replace the pipe). I followed up with them maybe four times before giving up. I'm not the customer of the freeholder or of the management company. Reading up on the impact on adults (thought to be low compared to the impact on kids), I decided to just run my tap for a few minutes every day and store water to drink for that day (wasting lots of water in the process). I notified the other residents, some of whom have children, suggesting I could help take it further if others helped out. Nobody responded.
The official guidance is to not test, since the test wasn't very good, the number of kids with genuine issues is low (so high false negative rate) and the treatments being dangerous if you don't actually have the problem.
It should be relatively easy to get someone to test your water though, and get that sorted if there's an issue found.
But the main driver of criminal behaviour and loss of IQ is lead gasoline you breath all day long anyway and that's nearly gone too. I think Algeria is finally removing it this year, it was one of the last country.
> In the UK, however, where there is a large stock of old housing
note that the article mentions Rhode Island. The US northeast is full of a lot of very old houses, and is a lot "closer" to the UK in terms of age of average house than the US western states.
I think the biggest issues is probably lead piping. Lead in paint only becomes a problem when it starts chipping and chalking. It should still be removed eventually however.
As a landlord in the US I have to sign a lead paint disclosure every year for my tenants stating I have no knowledge of lead paint on the property. This may be state specific though.
I live in a 1920s home. No asbestos that I know of thankfully but it does have lead paint that's been covered by 20+ layers of paint. The windows are the biggest concern since they are original and in relatively poor condition. They are painted shut so no issues of paint chipping off during opening. Unfortunately single pane windows are just prone to condense water which leads the paint to chip so annual re-painting is what I do. My young toddler loves playing on the windows and there's not much one can do to stop him. I just try to wash his hands before meals.
Also it's frustrating because I asked my pediatrician for blood lead test and they wouldn't do it as they said it's unnecessary. I am going to switch doctors and try to push harder at the next checkup. I've heard there is a finger prick test that's not very good and then a blood draw that's actually fairly good but of course more invasive.
I'm sure the neighborhood has lead all over in the soil so it'd be nice to keep an eye on the levels. There's also some more modern concerns like the shredded tires used in one playground or the crumb rubber used in another.
> Also it's frustrating because I asked my pediatrician for blood lead test and they wouldn't do it as they said it's unnecessary. I am going to switch doctors and try to push harder at the next checkup. I've heard there is a finger prick test that's not very good and then a blood draw that's actually fairly good but of course more invasive.
Huh, yeah, sounds like you need a better pediatrician. That's not cool.
Several states in the Northeast also have mandatory testing for lead levels for young children.
> Also it's frustrating because I asked my pediatrician for blood lead test and they wouldn't do it as they said it's unnecessary.
It's certainly not part of the usual screening tests but it would make sense for certain populations. Lead exposure seems to be more common in the USA, the CDC even recommends testing. In my country lead exposure is most common in certain jobs and those workers are certainly tested every 6 months or so.
> I've heard there is a finger prick test that's not very good and then a blood draw that's actually fairly good but of course more invasive.
The finger prick test is more sensitive. It has a higher rate of false positives. A negative result is good but a positive result must be followed up with a proper blood test.
This might be my hobby horse, and I've commented to this effect a few times in the past, but here goes:
Hobby aviation still uses leaded fuel and this is detectable near regional airports. The primary reason for this that the vast majority of the existing fleet is stuck in the 1970s essentially as new airframes and engine designs are expensive and viewed as risky.
Just bought a 1985 home in rural Michigan with well water, testing for lead was never required by any part of the process. Post-sale I paid for a detailed water analysis, about $200, which found 4PPB of Lead. I called a few plumbers and they weren’t willing to do any inspection or make any recommendations.
It cost about $6k in total to install a (Kinetico) water softener & RO system to remove it from my drinking water.
I previously lived in Flint during the early few years of the changes that introduced high lead levels in the city drinking water. I tell this to doctors but they suggest there isn’t any tests they can do, as it is deposited into tissues and bones and not really found in blood tests, that such tests are typically for children.
I guess I’m just saying there is no doubt I’ve had a great deal of lead in my drinking water throughout my life so I think a lot about how it shaped me and the communities I’ve lived in, how it shaped my experience with school and work.
How many people are being treated for anxiety, anger, or depression in a seemingly incurable medicated loop, all the while unknowingly exposed to lead?
Anyway as a PSA, I suggest that you should only believe that your water is lead-free when it has been tested directly from the tap and you have a report of 0PPB. Landlords and home sellers have a financial incentive to ensure that such testing is never done, and if lead is found, I don’t know what can be done other than pulling out your wallet one way or another
There seems to be a disturbing lack of interest in figuring out how these people are actually getting poisoned. Will replacing all the lead pipes actually have an effect? Why is it that hundreds of thousands of people in Rhode Island drink water from lead pipes, but only hundreds are poisoned per year? What about other causes, like lead-based paint exposure, or less obvious things like giving your kid 5oz of fruit juice per day[0]? Every non-child pictured in the article is obese and I begin to wonder what their knowledge or interest in nutrition is - I know multiple people who feed their child way more than 5oz of fruit juice per day, even after I told them about heavy metal concerns, because they can't believe that 'getting fruit' can be bad.
There are leaded pipes in Flint, MI too. That was fine, until the city changed its water supply. Old lead pipes have a passivating layer, due to reactions with the water -- but changing the pH of the water can strip the passivating layer, and dissolve the lead into drinking water. I don't think there's a "lack of interest" in determining how the poisonings occur (otherwise I wouldn't know this about Flint). But, that's not the purpose of this specific study, which aims to be a cross-sectional analysis of how much lead is in kids' blood. This sort of study can inspire more targeted research into specific causes.
I'm wondering this too, which exposure vectors? How much exposure is necessary? I really couldn't find anything on it? Will one inhale of lead dust cause poisoning or a spike in levels? Does it require consistent ingestion? Like we know lead is bad for children and the best case is lead free environment, but that's not available to most of us. What's the in between? How does exposure manifest in lead blood levels?
I just bought an old house with known lead paint. I had as much remediated as I could but there is still (covered) lead paint on the radiators, door casings, stairs, soil and porches.
What sort of exposure does this provide my children? How likely are these to be airborne? How much ingested lead dust is necessary to affect my children's blood levels?
We had a baseline blood test before we moved in, but now it's just waiting 4 months until their updated test, and me being an anxious mess and wiping everything down and touching up paint constantly.
> Why is it that hundreds of thousands of people in Rhode Island drink water from lead pipes, but only hundreds are poisoned per year?
For the same reason why Flint water trough lead pipes was good for decade turned dangerous very
quickly after one change.
The questions you asks have answers. Those answers are clearly communicated in the news and research. They are basic information by know for anyone interested.
Just asking them reveals that you don't follow issues. This is not a good way to be skeptic.
Shhh, don't bring that up. Come on over here we have a nice identity driven controversy to get you invested in, look at how bad this [OTHER GROUP] is, they did this bad thing. Isn't that much more inflammatory, doesn't that make you want to click and complain more. Good, focus on what we tell you is important.
Good see don't you feel that dopamine, doesn't it feel good to be angry about things your identity is invested into.
Findings This cross-sectional study linking Quest Diagnostics childhood lead testing and US Census data captured individual- and community-level disparities in lead exposure from October 2018 through February 2020. In adjusted models, the proportion of children with detectable (≥1.0 μg/dL) and elevated (≥5.0 μg/dL) [Blood Lead Levels] BLLs increased significantly among those with public insurance and for progressive quintiles of community pre-1950s housing and poverty.
Results Of the 1,141,441 children (586,703 boys [51.4%]; mean [SD] age, 2.3 [1.4] years) in the study, more than half of the children tested (576,092 [50.5%; 95% CI, 50.4%-50.6%]) had detectable BLLs, and 21,172 children (1.9% [95% CI, 1.8%-1.9%]) had BLLs of 5.0 μg/dL or more.
Awareness with surveillance is important. Leaded gasoline (TEL), lead pipes, and leaded paint were a problem for IQ before the 1980's that most Americans view as "solved" today.
I always come away from these articles about lead more confused than before. I grew up in a house that almost certainly had lead paint. We currently live in a house (in Rhode Island) that almost certainly has lead paint (an initial test was inconclusive, but it's very likely). Millions and millions of households have lead paint.
So why was the kid in this article found to have levels many, many times higher than the average kid living in houses with lead paint? What are the practical concerns for a parent living in such a house? What happened here?
In some European countries there is a New Year tradition of melting lead and pouring it into water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdomancy). The sale of these kits was only banned in 2018.
My wife and I, along with our two girls, recently moved out of my MIL’s and into a building that serves as our home and my business (we do computer repair). During a wellness checkup, my youngest had to do a lead test because of the age of our new home (built in 1931), and they discovered she had lead in her system.
At the time it was at level 14, so they recommended we do some tests, and try to do our best to keep her away from any chipped paint. It was another four months until she was checked again, and we thought we had done so much better, but her level was up to 22. The health department had to come investigate.
Needless to say, our new home is covered in lead, and given our financial situation, this being my source of income and our home, we’re in a peculiar situation. We’ve got a lot of surfaces to treat, and her levels will take some time to go down. The building owner never informed us, and by law they’re not responsible for fixing any of it, but even so we’re not holding it against them.
I bought a house and my realtor never suggested a lead test. Basically it’s on the homeowner or the buyer to request it, because lead is such a low risk to adults, it’s better to be willingly ignorant. This is especially true in urban environments where it’s far less likely that a kid will ever live there.
At the same time, you can 100% test for lead as part of an inspection. It’s just that there’s not a lot you can do with the information. If it’s lead free that’s awesome. Likely it’s not though, if it’s old. Sellers won’t really lower the price because older homes are basically guaranteed to have lead, so the test just clarified what should be assumed.
Now, I had a test done and there was a lot of lead. I had it mitigated. Lead paint was stripped to bare wood in tons of places, but it’s actually safe to have lead paint in places like intact walls. Walls don’t chip. Windowsills, door jambs, they chip. Even a very strict town in a strict state like Massachusetts won’t make you fully 100% de-lead, you have to remove anything with a risk of a kid eating it, or it sloughing off (like a door or window rubbing). All in all it cost me a few thousand dollars but I feel much better about the place.
i worked construction for a bit, and you wouldn’t believe the exceptions we made for certain “historic” buildings. i remember discussing this with my foreman, we were in an impoverished area of the city that just so happened to be “historical” by the cities standards. i am a-ok with preserving the past but these engineers told us that when we pull out the old lead piping, we gotta replace it with another lead pipe to “preserve the historical value” of the property. this was the lateral going into the housing from the water main. do you realize how ridiculous that is? their excuse was that lead pipes deal with expansion and contraction better than pvc, or some other type of piping. and they said that the inside of the pipes are now coated with some type of sealant that keeps the lead from seeping into the residence water supply. so next time you buy a city property make sure you check the water laterals, you can get this information from the city engineering office. i think the records are found in the same building as where you get your construction permits but you’ll have to double check.
As a kid (~10-11yo) growing up in Eastern Europe my friends and I would look for old car batteries left by dumpsters. We'd break them, take the lead grids out and clean them up, build a small fire, melt the lead, and then pour it into molds we'd make of wood, usually in the shape of ninja stars to play with. Fun times!
[+] [-] mcbuilder|4 years ago|reply
We kept mentioning the problem to them, but you could tell they were ignorant of the dangers. The general contractors quote was "I'd be doing this the same if it was my daughter in your house".
Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law. Luckily that stalled them for the day it took the city to get out to the site and shut it down. Now the GC was no idiot, but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem. When they resumed work, plastic was laid down, they picked up the paint chips, but none of the workers wore masks. If I didn't aggressively take action, nothing would have been done.
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|4 years ago|reply
When in doubt, call up your city's code enforcement office. They love showing up to work sites and catching contractors violating code. And the contractors will listen, too.
[+] [-] RankingMember|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] derekpankaew|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] motohagiography|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wnevets|4 years ago|reply
I've had similar experience when talking with contractors about it. I've been told multiple times that unless a child eats a handful everyday its not a problem.
[+] [-] CapitalistCartr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thehappypm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sizzle|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] nfw2|4 years ago|reply
Basically, lead exposure testing in food can have highly-variable results because of how the particles adhere to the food substrate, variability between food batches, and the way the exposure tests work. Because of this, lead exposure testing generally involves testing several samples and taking the mean to estimate the real level of exposure.
Despite several samples showing high levels of lead, the defense got off by claiming that the geometric mean was the correct average to use to infer the total exposure. This is obviously incorrect because the geometric mean is a multiplicative mean. With a geometric mean, all you need is one sample with lead exposure close to 0 to get a mean that's close to 0, even if all the other samples tested positive for extreme levels of lead exposure.
Just as a sanity check, we checked official literature on food toxicology, and every resource we could find stated that using arithmetic mean was the correct methodology, and not one mentioned geometric means.
The defense ended up winning the case, which is absolutely horrifying because 1.) baby food is the most dangerous product imaginable to contain lead and 2.) now there is a legal precedent to defend yourself against lead exposure claims using total BS statistics.
Edit: thankfully, it looks like the FDA is getting involved now https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2021/10/01/baby-foods-co...
[+] [-] bmitc|4 years ago|reply
This is exactly it. During our house purchasing process, our state gives you the so-called right to know if lead exists in a house. But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue. So basically, you need to test for yourself. Meanwhile, the state has covered their ass by providing the requirement of the disclosure, even though the disclosure is completely worthless. The same goes for radon testing. And it's practically impossible to get an offer accepted if you do not waive your right to test for lead and radon before purchasing.
It's just irritating to me that industries and the government go through all this trouble to do nothing but cover their ass and stop right before they do something that would actually help the issue in the real world. Additionally, nearly all of the stuff you do when purchasing a house protects somebody else except you as a buyer. It's amazing to me that there aren't stricter requirements, standards for testing, and regulations around testing for lead and radon, two things that are easy to test for but have seriously adverse health effects.
Also, it's surprising just how much stuff still has lead in it. When I was researching ideas for a compost bin in my backyard, many suggested wire mesh (aka chicken wire, wire cloth, etc.). However, I found out that the galvanizing process leaves a fair amount of lead on the wire, which could then leach into the resulting compost, then the ground the compost is used on, and then your garden vegetables. Just touching the stuff at the store now means you have lead dust on your hands.
Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it?
[+] [-] belval|4 years ago|reply
I guess I fit in the hobbyist you mention here so I'll try to chime in and explain. I use lead solder for my drone repairs and a few small home automation projects. Lead solder is not really dangerous at a hobbyist scale because the usages are spaced enough that even if you weren't washing your hands each month after soldering the measurable lead in your (or people around you) blood stream wouldn't be anywhere near worrying. In a way it's similar to asbestos, while it's 100% bad, the mere fact of studying in a room that has asbestos in the ventilation probably won't have an impact on your health. It's the longer exposure of say a teacher that worked 30 years in that environment that's much more dangerous.
There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs.
[+] [-] bluGill|4 years ago|reply
Every house I've lived in has been painted a few times since lead paint was common, which covers up the problem. Getting rid of lead paint is possible, but not really affordable.
[+] [-] throwaway946513|4 years ago|reply
I always try to reduce the exposure I have for myself if at all possible. My family's house was built in the 80's and we've ensured that there's no leaded paint on the house or water pipes on the property.
[+] [-] mindslight|4 years ago|reply
You're using moralizing language, but what else do you think could happen here? Barring government funding, by-the-book remediation costs a lot of money. So the two options are either completely remediating the lead and offer that as a selling point, or just kicking the can down the road ("I don't know but it was painted before 1978 so make your own informed guess"). If the seller checked the box for positive existence of lead, they would be doing you no favors since you'd be getting the exact same physical house, but would also have to check the known-lead box when selling the house down the line.
If you only want to buy a house that has been fully remediated, you could make your offer contingent upon that. But since your offer has to be competitive with the rest of the market, that would cost a similar amount to buying the house as it is and then doing your own remediation afterwards.
If you go to rent that house out and the renters have small kids, then you can no longer kick the can down the road. It makes for a painful immediate situation, but barring government funded remediation or straight up mandating that every bit of lead paint needs to be remediated before a house can be sold (despite it being fine for the majority of people), I don't see how else it could be handled.
[+] [-] DanBC|4 years ago|reply
This used to be true (I remember having to grind through many different solders on different boards for work and they sucked compared to the Multicore 60/40 5 core rosin fluxed solder), but modern alloys are pretty good. Whatever you're using you must use ventilation too, so the comments about flux are already answered.
I feel that there's a much wider range of soldering tasks that solder has to cope with now. In the past hobbyists had single or dual layer PCBs with big pads and through hole components, or stranded wire and big connector buckets. But now we have tiny surface mount components on tiny pads, or a big FET on a 12 layer board with a big ground plane. If it's something you're doing at work you get used to the feel of it and can set your iron station up accordingly, but if you're a hobbyist you don't get that practice and set up time.
[+] [-] bcrosby95|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] k2enemy|4 years ago|reply
My state has fairly strict lead laws and a lead paint test is required if you purchase a house built before a certain date and have children below a certain age. But I only knew that because I carefully read all paperwork in the process. No realtor mentioned it, but begrudgingly agreed when asked about it. None of my friends with kids had done a lead test when they purchased homes built before the cutoff date. Many of whom have gone on to do renovations.
So I get the lead test (independent lead testing company as required by state law) and many painted wooden surface had lead paint at the base layer (but not the top). The required mediation was for all lead paint to be removed from friction surfaces and windowsills, and all other surfaces needed intact paint over the lead paint.
It cost $40k for the remediation and they did an absolutely horrible job. Zero common sense. It didn't fit the letter of the law or spirit of the law. The house would have been hardly safer than before mediation. Yet it passed independent inspection with no problem. I had to fight hard to get the remediation company to come back and fix the sloppy work. It took almost $60k and delayed moving in to the house for four months.
I came away from the experience convinced that the lead remediation operations in my area are a racket. The inspectors don't care. The remediators don't care. And I only know one other family that even bothered to do the required testing when they bought their house. And this is in a fairly affluent area. So it does not surprise me that we have a lead poisoning problem.
[+] [-] ryankask|4 years ago|reply
Are children in the UK silently suffering from lead poisoning, or "losing IQ points"? I have lead paint in my house and If I took my children to get tested at the GP, I would expect a strange look in response.
Compare this to asbestos, where a survey is always recommended when purchasing an older property in the UK. While I think a lead survey would be suggested in the US if purchasing a pre-1978 property (and is required in some areas when renting to a family with children), I would guess only a handful are done here every year.
[+] [-] thingification|4 years ago|reply
The agency in London responsible, Thames Water, will replace any lead pipe in the public network leading to your building if you agree to replace any lead pipe on your property within 3 months.
But I live in a "leasehold" flat (common in London). So "you" for the purposes of that agreement would be not me but the "freeholder", who is responsible for building maintenance. To get them to do anything, I have to go to a lot of effort to get action out of the "management company" hired by the freeholder (and probably then be blamed by other leaseholders -- most of whom don't live here -- for costing them money to replace the pipe). I followed up with them maybe four times before giving up. I'm not the customer of the freeholder or of the management company. Reading up on the impact on adults (thought to be low compared to the impact on kids), I decided to just run my tap for a few minutes every day and store water to drink for that day (wasting lots of water in the process). I notified the other residents, some of whom have children, suggesting I could help take it further if others helped out. Nobody responded.
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|4 years ago|reply
It should be relatively easy to get someone to test your water though, and get that sorted if there's an issue found.
[+] [-] xwolfi|4 years ago|reply
But the main driver of criminal behaviour and loss of IQ is lead gasoline you breath all day long anyway and that's nearly gone too. I think Algeria is finally removing it this year, it was one of the last country.
[+] [-] walrus01|4 years ago|reply
note that the article mentions Rhode Island. The US northeast is full of a lot of very old houses, and is a lot "closer" to the UK in terms of age of average house than the US western states.
[+] [-] sschueller|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jraby3|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] denimnerd42|4 years ago|reply
Also it's frustrating because I asked my pediatrician for blood lead test and they wouldn't do it as they said it's unnecessary. I am going to switch doctors and try to push harder at the next checkup. I've heard there is a finger prick test that's not very good and then a blood draw that's actually fairly good but of course more invasive.
I'm sure the neighborhood has lead all over in the soil so it'd be nice to keep an eye on the levels. There's also some more modern concerns like the shredded tires used in one playground or the crumb rubber used in another.
[+] [-] cure|4 years ago|reply
Huh, yeah, sounds like you need a better pediatrician. That's not cool.
Several states in the Northeast also have mandatory testing for lead levels for young children.
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|4 years ago|reply
It's certainly not part of the usual screening tests but it would make sense for certain populations. Lead exposure seems to be more common in the USA, the CDC even recommends testing. In my country lead exposure is most common in certain jobs and those workers are certainly tested every 6 months or so.
> I've heard there is a finger prick test that's not very good and then a blood draw that's actually fairly good but of course more invasive.
The finger prick test is more sensitive. It has a higher rate of false positives. A negative result is good but a positive result must be followed up with a proper blood test.
[+] [-] howdydoo|4 years ago|reply
Ask to get that refusal in writing. I bet they'll change their mind.
[+] [-] gengelbro|4 years ago|reply
Hobby aviation still uses leaded fuel and this is detectable near regional airports. The primary reason for this that the vast majority of the existing fleet is stuck in the 1970s essentially as new airframes and engine designs are expensive and viewed as risky.
[+] [-] jquast|4 years ago|reply
It cost about $6k in total to install a (Kinetico) water softener & RO system to remove it from my drinking water.
I previously lived in Flint during the early few years of the changes that introduced high lead levels in the city drinking water. I tell this to doctors but they suggest there isn’t any tests they can do, as it is deposited into tissues and bones and not really found in blood tests, that such tests are typically for children.
I guess I’m just saying there is no doubt I’ve had a great deal of lead in my drinking water throughout my life so I think a lot about how it shaped me and the communities I’ve lived in, how it shaped my experience with school and work.
How many people are being treated for anxiety, anger, or depression in a seemingly incurable medicated loop, all the while unknowingly exposed to lead?
Anyway as a PSA, I suggest that you should only believe that your water is lead-free when it has been tested directly from the tap and you have a report of 0PPB. Landlords and home sellers have a financial incentive to ensure that such testing is never done, and if lead is found, I don’t know what can be done other than pulling out your wallet one way or another
[+] [-] AlexTWithBeard|4 years ago|reply
https://www.consumerreports.org/products/water-filters-32980...
[+] [-] oh_sigh|4 years ago|reply
https://www.consumerreports.org/food-safety/arsenic-and-lead...
[+] [-] klyrs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dm03514|4 years ago|reply
I just bought an old house with known lead paint. I had as much remediated as I could but there is still (covered) lead paint on the radiators, door casings, stairs, soil and porches.
What sort of exposure does this provide my children? How likely are these to be airborne? How much ingested lead dust is necessary to affect my children's blood levels?
We had a baseline blood test before we moved in, but now it's just waiting 4 months until their updated test, and me being an anxious mess and wiping everything down and touching up paint constantly.
[+] [-] nabla9|4 years ago|reply
For the same reason why Flint water trough lead pipes was good for decade turned dangerous very quickly after one change.
The questions you asks have answers. Those answers are clearly communicated in the news and research. They are basic information by know for anyone interested.
Just asking them reveals that you don't follow issues. This is not a good way to be skeptic.
[+] [-] hpoe|4 years ago|reply
Good see don't you feel that dopamine, doesn't it feel good to be angry about things your identity is invested into.
[+] [-] adolph|4 years ago|reply
Results Of the 1,141,441 children (586,703 boys [51.4%]; mean [SD] age, 2.3 [1.4] years) in the study, more than half of the children tested (576,092 [50.5%; 95% CI, 50.4%-50.6%]) had detectable BLLs, and 21,172 children (1.9% [95% CI, 1.8%-1.9%]) had BLLs of 5.0 μg/dL or more.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst...
[+] [-] wittyusername|4 years ago|reply
No name brand from China. I wonder what else in our lives might have lead in it..
[+] [-] errcorrectcode|4 years ago|reply
https://www.damninteresting.com/the-ethyl-poisoned-earth
Here's what the CDC recommends:
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources.htm
[+] [-] dionidium|4 years ago|reply
So why was the kid in this article found to have levels many, many times higher than the average kid living in houses with lead paint? What are the practical concerns for a parent living in such a house? What happened here?
It's not even remotely clear.
[+] [-] willis936|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exact_string|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakub_g|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leemcd56|4 years ago|reply
At the time it was at level 14, so they recommended we do some tests, and try to do our best to keep her away from any chipped paint. It was another four months until she was checked again, and we thought we had done so much better, but her level was up to 22. The health department had to come investigate.
Needless to say, our new home is covered in lead, and given our financial situation, this being my source of income and our home, we’re in a peculiar situation. We’ve got a lot of surfaces to treat, and her levels will take some time to go down. The building owner never informed us, and by law they’re not responsible for fixing any of it, but even so we’re not holding it against them.
[+] [-] thehappypm|4 years ago|reply
I bought a house and my realtor never suggested a lead test. Basically it’s on the homeowner or the buyer to request it, because lead is such a low risk to adults, it’s better to be willingly ignorant. This is especially true in urban environments where it’s far less likely that a kid will ever live there.
At the same time, you can 100% test for lead as part of an inspection. It’s just that there’s not a lot you can do with the information. If it’s lead free that’s awesome. Likely it’s not though, if it’s old. Sellers won’t really lower the price because older homes are basically guaranteed to have lead, so the test just clarified what should be assumed.
Now, I had a test done and there was a lot of lead. I had it mitigated. Lead paint was stripped to bare wood in tons of places, but it’s actually safe to have lead paint in places like intact walls. Walls don’t chip. Windowsills, door jambs, they chip. Even a very strict town in a strict state like Massachusetts won’t make you fully 100% de-lead, you have to remove anything with a risk of a kid eating it, or it sloughing off (like a door or window rubbing). All in all it cost me a few thousand dollars but I feel much better about the place.
[+] [-] questiondev|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forix|4 years ago|reply