Thi will never cure the underlying cause of suicides, of course, but adding even slight obstacles has proven to have an effect on suicide rates. Many suicides aren't thoughtfully planned out, but are just a combination of motive and easy opportunity. Even adding something as seemingly silly as a moderately difficult to climb fence to a bridge can reduce suicide rates.
This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health. I do believe it'll save lives, even if it's just a few, but the necessity proves that there's still a lot that needs to be done.
Right, but it is really important that you follow up with psychological help.
Sometimes I wonder if suicide prevention measures like this just remove the last bit of agency that people have, and while they will live on, they will just suffer silently. Maybe suicides are not thoughtfully planned out, but they are often preceeded by a very long phase of suicidal thoughts and rumination, and sometimes fixation on specific methods (e.g. a certain bridge, or in this case a fan). Similarly, by not reporting on suicides you prevent some, but you basically take away their last voice. I don't know, I think it is a very hard dilemma.
I remember a story about an army that had a lot of suicides when soldiers would go home and take their gun with them. Not allowing them to take their gun home apparently really cut down on the suicides. Having a bit more time to think about it can save lives.
But of course they should still address the underlying reasons that make people consider suicide.
It’s a good point. There are places / mechanisms that become iconic and if you remove that or make it harder, people don’t necessarily move to something else.
Palo Alto had a spate of suicides at a particular crossing, so they added guards and fences, and the suicides did not significantly move to other stops.
Before I read your comment, I came here thinking they are patching the symptoms rather than diagnosing and fixing the actual root cause.
Just understood, it's more important to reduce the easy of committing suicide before solving the actual problem. Thanks for the wonderful comment.
Most accidents happen in the own households. I won't be more specific to give any suggestions but this approach makes the likely root cause - hardship in the pandemic - even worse.
> This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health.
More recreational opportunities and less pressure during studies are probably more helpful. From a documentary I've seen recently stress at India's universities must be extreme in some cases.
This may be true, however after living in the tropics for many years I can attest that if you're unable to afford Air conditioning, someone taking your fan away would be enough to send even the happiest person over the edge.
> This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health.
I don't know if it's a problem with the institution or a problem with the reporting but you could avoid a lot of "But they're not fixing the root cause, just the symptoms." outrage just by confirming this assumption. More engagement I guess...
Everyone knows that fixing the root cause is the way to go, it's weird to see that some people seem to think patching symptoms and fixing the underlying issue are two opposite things and you somehow only can do one or the other and not both.
This looks as bikeshedding. If you want to eliminate suicides, finding and fixing the motivation to commit the act is the way to go. Having a fan on a ceiling is not an opportunity, just one of the many available means to an end and not a compelling one, so it is really a way to pretending to care while not doing the right thing.
I wish the article had dwelled into IISc a bit more. It is one of the most sought after research institutions in India. Those who enter it are primarily motivated by an opportunity to advance their field. Though I haven't studied there I have interacted with those who have and have been to the campus on quite a few occasions.
IISc is very different from IITs other much talked about institution. While latter is full of students from poor/middle-class trying to break out of their economic situation IISc is purely about research. Few understand the pressures a researcher at IISc goes through. Research is hard, more so in India and it takes its toll on some of the finest minds.
Some students use drugs to enhance their performance. I expect that top schools have a lot more performance drug users than other schools. Many people using performance drugs do not rest enough, exercise, or manage stress. They eventually develop health problems like depression.
Some context that is missing in the article: this university has about 4000 students. [1]
So those 4 suicides this year represent 0.1% of the student population. For comparison, the suicide rate for the Indian population in general is closer to 0.01%. [2]
I think this is a genuinely good idea. (which should obviously be accompanied by actual rehabilitative options and de-stigmatization of mental health) I went to similar institute in India (NIT, the proverbial first losers), and 3 students hung themselves over the span on 2 years. (1 acquaintance, 1 friend) From what was made public, their decision to commit suicide was a rash one, tied to the fear of failure. (one was a break up)
I have been depressed before, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, the decision to go from crushing depression to suicide is often fast (span on a few days) and genuinely reversible, as long as the person lives. We know that far more men die due to suicide, due to their choice of a more fatal weapon (gun to the dead > slashing veins).
Making it harder to commit suicide gives institutions and social systems time to help the person out.
_______
Indians aged 18-19 at top engineering institutes are probably the most underdeveloped humans you will ever meet.
These kids sacrifice their entire personal/social/philosophical development for 2-6 years, to study 12+ hrs/day for the IIT-JEE entrance exam. They have no life, no hobbies, no personal aspirations outside getting into IIT.
Once they're in, they are often alone & underprepared for the general rigors of campus life. They feel too emotionally about their first relationship or they take their first failure too hard (I have had to talk my India CBSE top 10 rank friend out of harming himself, because he got a 'B' for the first time in his life. I kid you not).
Every part of this process is exploitative and unfair to the children. But, in a country where getting into IIT/IISc opens doors to the world's elite, you can hardly fault them/ their families for simply optimizing for the best value proposition.
_______
IMO, top Engineering institutes in India need to allow students some time to breathe after they come in. Let them live out their high-school days in some capacity during their freshman year of college. Let them find an identity that isn't tied to their grades and studies.
Lastly, but most importantly, teach them about mental health and struggles that they are bound to face. Help them truly grok that failure is an inevitable part of everyone's life. Unfortunately, I find that this is still under discussed even in elite universities in the US. What hope do these Indian institutes have?
I do not think mental health education is the answer, in a highly populated country like India and the pressure to succeed, it will never go away unless culture changes. The pressures in India are extreme and the preferential treatment of “backwards castes” has costs. Unless they de emphasize the culture, you’ll see this pattern as is the case in China, Japan, South Korea, and MIT.
My cousin faced the same issues, he now has an outlet for his frustrations and cares less about success that is ingrained in academia.
The worst part about this is many people in this worldview expect it to be easy after. India has the lowest divorce rate so it’s possible it’s not a delusion to get a good wife with a good job, but society is changing, and with no social skills these people face more problems later.
You have written such a thoughtful reply that it honestly makes me sad. Why can't something so basic, that each of us feel within us does not occur to or resonate with hundreds of qualified (I imagine) administrators or policy makers?
Obviously an emotive topic and I hope to tread lightly.
Overwhelmingly people who have bear miss suicide attempts later are glad they did not do it.
Suicide is rarely a release from trouble, causing massive problems for those who are left, often burdening them with a lifetime of struggle.
Naturally we ache at the thought of removing useful ceilung fans rather than addressing the root cause. Yet who would criticise a seat belt, saying we just need to drive safely?
Is this not the same argument with gun control? Remove the guns, solves gun violence?
On a similar note, I don’t think that teaching mental health is the solution. The pressures in India are terrible. MIT in the US has no legacy program, and has the highest suicide rates, and I know a few people that were committed rapidly and diagnosed haphazardly. This prevents suicide by imprisoning them in powerful psychoactive drugs (antipsychotics) and labeling them as schizophrenic, holding them against their free will to lower suicide stats.
The underlying issue is the pressure to succeed, and they will never remove that in India.
Why take down the fans? It’s survival of the fittest! /sarc
Humanity is fine with creating unneeded suffering in others but we will alway draw the line at ending human suffering.
It is the same with the homeless. Society is fine with us living on the street but will give you immediate housing if you want to end your suffering by suicide.
So, we could restructure education and society in a way that would eliminate suffering.
Isn’t this just a question of ease of substitution? If it’s a trivial to substitute hang yourself from x vs y or substitute Hanging for handful of pills - is the marginal benefit really there? I suspect not, but I do think from an administrators standpoint this has the effect of a) looking like they are doing something, b) pushing [embarrasing] suicides off campus/out of sight.
I think making suicide less accessible will result in fewer suicides on campus.
And I think making it more accessible will increase its rate.
Seems obvious.
But the headline isn't about that. It's about tut-tutting this backward institution. Because we, and the students union knows everything the school is doing to curb suicides beyond removing fans.
Can they do more? Maybe. How would I know. I've never heard of this school before.
I think the students are right that it's a bad idea. They don't want to lose their fellow students to suicide, but are still against replacing the fans. They are young and inexperienced so maybe a simple majority would be easy to dismiss but this is 90%.
What is causing high suicide rates in students? Is it the immense pressure to get perfect test results so they can be seen as successful by their overbearing parents who will label them as failures if they do not rank at the top of their class?
Measures like this show clearly that their concern is legal liability, not student welfare. Will it meaningfully reduce the number of suicides on campus? It might. But that isn't, and shouldn't be, the point.
Even if poor access to mental health resources is the root course, it is the right choice to make sure students survive longer to have a chance to get help.
Not enough, not even a start, but the right choice.
Wouldn't it make more sense to alter the ceiling fans so that excess weight (e.g. a body) will cause them to detach from the ceiling, preferably also triggering an alarm?
I went to a good magnet school with no fans or AC on the highest floor. It made such little sense to have the brightest students pass out, nap, not be able to learn and only one teacher had an AC he personally brought in.
I’ve been told by several Indian colleagues that mental health services in India are taboo, and generally reserved for the high dysfunctional who cannot be an active part in society (think very schizophrenic, for example).
jeroenhd|4 years ago
This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health. I do believe it'll save lives, even if it's just a few, but the necessity proves that there's still a lot that needs to be done.
captainmuon|4 years ago
Sometimes I wonder if suicide prevention measures like this just remove the last bit of agency that people have, and while they will live on, they will just suffer silently. Maybe suicides are not thoughtfully planned out, but they are often preceeded by a very long phase of suicidal thoughts and rumination, and sometimes fixation on specific methods (e.g. a certain bridge, or in this case a fan). Similarly, by not reporting on suicides you prevent some, but you basically take away their last voice. I don't know, I think it is a very hard dilemma.
mcv|4 years ago
But of course they should still address the underlying reasons that make people consider suicide.
ec109685|4 years ago
Palo Alto had a spate of suicides at a particular crossing, so they added guards and fences, and the suicides did not significantly move to other stops.
codetiger|4 years ago
blablabla123|4 years ago
> This is a fine measure, assuming that it's followed by investment into mental health.
More recreational opportunities and less pressure during studies are probably more helpful. From a documentary I've seen recently stress at India's universities must be extreme in some cases.
pentae|4 years ago
yuters|4 years ago
I don't know if it's a problem with the institution or a problem with the reporting but you could avoid a lot of "But they're not fixing the root cause, just the symptoms." outrage just by confirming this assumption. More engagement I guess...
Everyone knows that fixing the root cause is the way to go, it's weird to see that some people seem to think patching symptoms and fixing the underlying issue are two opposite things and you somehow only can do one or the other and not both.
baxtr|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
AdrianB1|4 years ago
jetsetgo|4 years ago
[deleted]
NiceWayToDoIT|4 years ago
Ygg2|4 years ago
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/saves...
Borrible|4 years ago
Apparently, they already thought about that.
ricardobeat|4 years ago
PostThisTooFast|4 years ago
[deleted]
vishnugupta|4 years ago
IISc is very different from IITs other much talked about institution. While latter is full of students from poor/middle-class trying to break out of their economic situation IISc is purely about research. Few understand the pressures a researcher at IISc goes through. Research is hard, more so in India and it takes its toll on some of the finest minds.
mleonhard|4 years ago
nmstoker|4 years ago
"To reduce student suicides by hanging from fans, institute in India removes fans"
robbedpeter|4 years ago
moffkalast|4 years ago
wcoenen|4 years ago
So those 4 suicides this year represent 0.1% of the student population. For comparison, the suicide rate for the Indian population in general is closer to 0.01%. [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Science
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India
screye|4 years ago
I have been depressed before, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, the decision to go from crushing depression to suicide is often fast (span on a few days) and genuinely reversible, as long as the person lives. We know that far more men die due to suicide, due to their choice of a more fatal weapon (gun to the dead > slashing veins).
Making it harder to commit suicide gives institutions and social systems time to help the person out.
_______
Indians aged 18-19 at top engineering institutes are probably the most underdeveloped humans you will ever meet.
These kids sacrifice their entire personal/social/philosophical development for 2-6 years, to study 12+ hrs/day for the IIT-JEE entrance exam. They have no life, no hobbies, no personal aspirations outside getting into IIT.
Once they're in, they are often alone & underprepared for the general rigors of campus life. They feel too emotionally about their first relationship or they take their first failure too hard (I have had to talk my India CBSE top 10 rank friend out of harming himself, because he got a 'B' for the first time in his life. I kid you not).
Every part of this process is exploitative and unfair to the children. But, in a country where getting into IIT/IISc opens doors to the world's elite, you can hardly fault them/ their families for simply optimizing for the best value proposition.
_______
IMO, top Engineering institutes in India need to allow students some time to breathe after they come in. Let them live out their high-school days in some capacity during their freshman year of college. Let them find an identity that isn't tied to their grades and studies.
Lastly, but most importantly, teach them about mental health and struggles that they are bound to face. Help them truly grok that failure is an inevitable part of everyone's life. Unfortunately, I find that this is still under discussed even in elite universities in the US. What hope do these Indian institutes have?
GhettoComputers|4 years ago
My cousin faced the same issues, he now has an outlet for his frustrations and cares less about success that is ingrained in academia.
The worst part about this is many people in this worldview expect it to be easy after. India has the lowest divorce rate so it’s possible it’s not a delusion to get a good wife with a good job, but society is changing, and with no social skills these people face more problems later.
pddpro|4 years ago
Or is it just that, only we see the sense?
viach|4 years ago
neuroma|4 years ago
Naturally we ache at the thought of removing useful ceilung fans rather than addressing the root cause. Yet who would criticise a seat belt, saying we just need to drive safely?
Suicide is hard to reliably predict despite substantial efforts to do so. One if the models I've found useful is that of thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377972/#!po=40...
GhettoComputers|4 years ago
On a similar note, I don’t think that teaching mental health is the solution. The pressures in India are terrible. MIT in the US has no legacy program, and has the highest suicide rates, and I know a few people that were committed rapidly and diagnosed haphazardly. This prevents suicide by imprisoning them in powerful psychoactive drugs (antipsychotics) and labeling them as schizophrenic, holding them against their free will to lower suicide stats.
The underlying issue is the pressure to succeed, and they will never remove that in India.
podgaj|4 years ago
It is the same with the homeless. Society is fine with us living on the street but will give you immediate housing if you want to end your suffering by suicide.
So, we could restructure education and society in a way that would eliminate suffering.
Does anyone want to talk about that?
GhettoComputers|4 years ago
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]
jaimex2|4 years ago
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/government-to-be...
Views crossing the bridge are a nice touch now as you enter the worlds most locked down city.
cascom|4 years ago
99_00|4 years ago
Seems obvious.
But the headline isn't about that. It's about tut-tutting this backward institution. Because we, and the students union knows everything the school is doing to curb suicides beyond removing fans.
Can they do more? Maybe. How would I know. I've never heard of this school before.
jazzabeanie|4 years ago
daneel_w|4 years ago
benatkin|4 years ago
sizzle|4 years ago
kkcorps|4 years ago
nnain|4 years ago
approxim8ion|4 years ago
tibbydudeza|4 years ago
moffkalast|4 years ago
bayesian_horse|4 years ago
Not enough, not even a start, but the right choice.
Wildgoose|4 years ago
aitchnyu|4 years ago
ctvo|4 years ago
MrFantastic|4 years ago
GhettoComputers|4 years ago
ph2082|4 years ago
IISC, definitely have money. Even a part time mentah health professional will do.
HKH2|4 years ago
nnain|4 years ago
TedDoesntTalk|4 years ago
Is that accurate or old information?
bongoman37|4 years ago
[deleted]
dt3ft|4 years ago
aaron695|4 years ago
[deleted]
unknown|4 years ago
[deleted]